All Ireland Gaelic Football Final 2014 Kerry v Donegal

[AZOffaly]

Because my wife is from Kerry, and I have good friends down there. Is that ok? But I find this 'How many Ulster teams have Kerry lost to?' quite amusing. As if ye are all united against the Kingdom.  Sure how many Leinster or Connacht counties have they lost to over the years?

[J70]

Are any of ye Donegal boys ( and girls) worried that maybe you hit your big performance against the Dubs and might be a little flat for the final like happened in Ulster last year after the Tyrone match?

No.

If we don't perform it will be because Kerry didn't let us.

Last year was injuries,  tiredness,  hunger. And then a good and hurting Mayo side out for revenge.

I don't think nerves should be a factor this time around either like in the second quarter of the 12 final when a lot of silly mistakes were made. Almost all these boys have a medal already.

[yellowcard]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.

You say they are "getting close to the limits of their capabilities" as if it is self evident. So what IS the evidence?

There seems to be a popular consensus that you could parachute McGuinness into ANY county and provincial titles and AI final appearances would almost inevitably follow. This consensus doesn't appear to be built on anything  beyond lazy hype,  however.

What I should have added is that it is 'getting close to the limits of their capabilities as amateur sportsmen' because the only possible way to squeeze a large degree of improvement out of themselves would be to become full time profesisonals.  Where is the evidence? Its in the week long warm weather training camp in Portugal before the championship. Its in the countless hours of video analysis undertaken and prepared on the upcoming opponent and the detailed specific gameplan devised to counteract their strengths and attack their weaknesses. Its in the size of the backroom staff that each have a small but significant role in creating an environment for maximum performance for each player. Its in the weekend breaks (and sometimes 5 days) before each championship match where multiple daily sessions and meetings are held to fine tune preparations.

But all the top teams are doing that stuff.

Are they all over achieving?

Exactly, the top teams, of which Donegal were not a member until McGuinness came in, changed the culture and took preparations to new levels. The vast majority of counties would not prepare to anywhere near the level of Donegal.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to the players because there are some very talented players in the squad but I think its the collective that is the primary strength of the team as opposed to any stand out players bar Murphy and Lacey. For instance I think the current Donegal side are at least the equal of the current Kerry side on an individual basis and possibly even marginally better.

[BluestackBoy]

Are any of ye Donegal boys ( and girls) worried that maybe you hit your big performance against the Dubs and might be a little flat for the final like happened in Ulster last year after the Tyrone match?

No.

If we don't perform it will be because Kerry didn't let us.

Last year was injuries,  tiredness,  hunger. And then a good and hurting Mayo side out for revenge.

I don't think nerves should be a factor this time around either like in the second quarter of the 12 final when a lot of silly mistakes were made. Almost all these boys have a medal already.

This had crossed my mind but then I remembered who is in charge & the worry disappeared like a puff of smoke.

The Tyrone thing was different they did beat Down in the semi final but physically, it just wasn't there.

5 days in Lough Erne will have them champing at the bit & eating only Stork margarine instead of Kerrygold.

[Crete Boom]

Are any of ye Donegal boys ( and girls) worried that maybe you hit your big performance against the Dubs and might be a little flat for the final like happened in Ulster last year after the Tyrone match?

No.

If we don't perform it will be because Kerry didn't let us.

Last year was injuries,  tiredness,  hunger. And then a good and hurting Mayo side out for revenge.

I don't think nerves should be a factor this time around either like in the second quarter of the 12 final when a lot of silly mistakes were made. Almost all these boys have a medal already.

This had crossed my mind but then I remembered who is in charge & the worry disappeared like a puff of smoke.

The Tyrone thing was different they did beat Down in the semi final but physically, it just wasn't there.

5 days in Lough Erne will have them champing at the bit & eating only Stork margarine instead of Kerrygold.

Yeah I suppose injuries and tiredness played a huge factor last year. I didn't think Donegal were that nervous in the 12 final it was just we came roaring back into the game after the brilliant start by Donegal. If Donegal had any serious problems with nerves in that final they wouldn't have shut down the match they way they did in the third quarter especially. I think sometimes Donegal don't get the credit they deserve for the brilliant first and third quarter performance in that final because every county would expect to hammer Mayo if they get to a final these days. Personally I would be shocked if nerves are any real factor for Donegal in this final as the have matured every year as a team under Jim . Kerry could get a scoring burst if( and it's a big if) they can get space for their danger men inside as they are ruthless if they get a sniff of a goal but I think they will have to be patient and pick off the long range points.

I think Kerry will concentrate on nullifying Ryan McHugh , Neil Gallagher , Lacey and Murphy as they tend to attack a teams strength's rather than pray on weaknesses to win these big games. Whether they can do that is what will intrigue me along with the fact that will Donegal probe a shaky enough back six for Kerry with direct ball or trust their running game on the counter. Their fullback line was poor under the high ball against us and take David Moran out of the equation and the keeper struggles to vary his kickouts. Will Donaghy get any joy against the McGees? McGlynn vs Donnacha Walsh will be explosive.Great game in store and I am really looking forward to it.

[johnneycool]

Are any of ye Donegal boys ( and girls) worried that maybe you hit your big performance against the Dubs and might be a little flat for the final like happened in Ulster last year after the Tyrone match?

No.

If we don't perform it will be because Kerry didn't let us.

Last year was injuries,  tiredness,  hunger. And then a good and hurting Mayo side out for revenge.

I don't think nerves should be a factor this time around either like in the second quarter of the 12 final when a lot of silly mistakes were made. Almost all these boys have a medal already.

This had crossed my mind but then I remembered who is in charge & the worry disappeared like a puff of smoke.

The Tyrone thing was different they did beat Down in the semi final but physically, it just wasn't there.

5 days in Lough Erne will have them champing at the bit & eating only Stork margarine instead of Kerrygold.

They'd be better with the full fat butter as that margarine shite.

[J70]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.

You say they are "getting close to the limits of their capabilities" as if it is self evident. So what IS the evidence?

There seems to be a popular consensus that you could parachute McGuinness into ANY county and provincial titles and AI final appearances would almost inevitably follow. This consensus doesn't appear to be built on anything  beyond lazy hype,  however.

What I should have added is that it is 'getting close to the limits of their capabilities as amateur sportsmen' because the only possible way to squeeze a large degree of improvement out of themselves would be to become full time profesisonals.  Where is the evidence? Its in the week long warm weather training camp in Portugal before the championship. Its in the countless hours of video analysis undertaken and prepared on the upcoming opponent and the detailed specific gameplan devised to counteract their strengths and attack their weaknesses. Its in the size of the backroom staff that each have a small but significant role in creating an environment for maximum performance for each player. Its in the weekend breaks (and sometimes 5 days) before each championship match where multiple daily sessions and meetings are held to fine tune preparations.

But all the top teams are doing that stuff.

Are they all over achieving?

Exactly, the top teams, of which Donegal were not a member until McGuinness came in, changed the culture and took preparations to new levels. The vast majority of counties would not prepare to anywhere near the level of Donegal.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to the players because there are some very talented players in the squad but I think its the collective that is the primary strength of the team as opposed to any stand out players bar Murphy and Lacey. For instance I think the current Donegal side are at least the equal of the current Kerry side on an individual basis and possibly even marginally better.

That doesn't make sense. If all the top teams are preparing that way, then surely the minimum requirement for those aspiring to join them is to also prepare in a similar manner. So how can a side be overachieving because they are putting in the same work as the others at the top level?

[yellowcard]

Could he become Football's Cody going on for 15 years? 

No chance. Hurling's AI title is the preserve of about 5 or 6 counties per year at a push. Kilkenny have no football to compete with so its not even comparable. Prior to McGuinness taking over Donegal they were ranked about 20th I think but have now won 3 Ulster titles in 4 years and are on the verge of their 2nd AI title in the same period. They have over achieved massively in doing this but could just as easily slip down to the lower reaches of the top 20. The depth of competition in football is much greater than hurling.

An over achieving team will win one title, not be one of the leading teams over a span of four years.

If they are not an over achieving side then are you of the opinion that they have only achieved what their ability suggested that they should have done? I would disagree strongly with that, the Donegal collective is much greater than the sum of the individual talent. The single biggest factor is the manager. Without him it is debatable if they would have won an Ulster title, now they are on the verge of their second AI title.

Did the Dubs of the 70s over achieve? What if Heffernan hadn't come along?

How about Meath under Boylan? Armagh under Kernan?

The only thing that is clear is that these Donegal players underachieved prior to McGuinness, through a combination of POOR management (no disrespect to them, but we were a shambles under John Joe and often under McIver) and their infamous lack of application.

Yes, they probably did under achieve prior to McGuinness but they have been getting close to the limits of their capabilities since then. Not many counties can say the same thing because to do so the players have to totally buy into what the manager wants and demands of them without any guarantee of success. McGuinness' greatest gift is that he convinced the players early on in his reign that great things lay in store for them if they followed him, he changed an entire counties culture overnight and the rest is history. No other manager in the country was capable of doing what he done imo.

You say they are "getting close to the limits of their capabilities" as if it is self evident. So what IS the evidence?

There seems to be a popular consensus that you could parachute McGuinness into ANY county and provincial titles and AI final appearances would almost inevitably follow. This consensus doesn't appear to be built on anything  beyond lazy hype,  however.

What I should have added is that it is 'getting close to the limits of their capabilities as amateur sportsmen' because the only possible way to squeeze a large degree of improvement out of themselves would be to become full time profesisonals.  Where is the evidence? Its in the week long warm weather training camp in Portugal before the championship. Its in the countless hours of video analysis undertaken and prepared on the upcoming opponent and the detailed specific gameplan devised to counteract their strengths and attack their weaknesses. Its in the size of the backroom staff that each have a small but significant role in creating an environment for maximum performance for each player. Its in the weekend breaks (and sometimes 5 days) before each championship match where multiple daily sessions and meetings are held to fine tune preparations.

But all the top teams are doing that stuff.

Are they all over achieving?

Exactly, the top teams, of which Donegal were not a member until McGuinness came in, changed the culture and took preparations to new levels. The vast majority of counties would not prepare to anywhere near the level of Donegal.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to the players because there are some very talented players in the squad but I think its the collective that is the primary strength of the team as opposed to any stand out players bar Murphy and Lacey. For instance I think the current Donegal side are at least the equal of the current Kerry side on an individual basis and possibly even marginally better.

That doesn't make sense. If all the top teams are preparing that way, then surely the minimum requirement for those aspiring to join them is to also prepare in a similar manner. So how can a side be overachieving because they are putting in the same work as the others at the top level?

Stop trying to complicate things and win an argument that will go around in circles. The top teams aren't all preparing to the EXACT same levels, it's like comparing the top F1 drivers with each other even though they are driving for different teams. Its still not a like for like comparision. I believe McGuinness is the best manager among the top teams for instance which is a big advantage for Donegal.

I'll finish by asking you one more question. Since you seem to think Donegal have more individual talent than I am giving them credit for then how many of the current Donegal team would you include in an all Ireland XV select? 

[armaghniac]

Because my wife is from Kerry, and I have good friends down there. Is that ok? But I find this 'How many Ulster teams have Kerry lost to?' quite amusing. As if ye are all united against the Kingdom.  Sure how many Leinster or Connacht counties have they lost to over the years?

Well they've lost to more than half the Ulster counties, is this true of Leinster?

[Dinny Breen]

Because my wife is from Kerry, and I have good friends down there. Is that ok? But I find this 'How many Ulster teams have Kerry lost to?' quite amusing. As if ye are all united against the Kingdom.  Sure how many Leinster or Connacht counties have they lost to over the years?

Well they've lost to more than half the Ulster counties, is this true of Leinster?

Dublin, Kildare, Wexford, Offaly, Meath and Louth. Louth's win though was technically a w/o.

[J70]

That doesn't make sense. If all the top teams are preparing that way, then surely the minimum requirement for those aspiring to join them is to also prepare in a similar manner. So how can a side be overachieving because they are putting in the same work as the others at the top level?

Stop trying to complicate things and win an argument that will go around in circles. The top teams aren't all preparing to the EXACT same levels, it's like comparing the top F1 drivers with each other even though they are driving for different teams. Its still not a like for like comparision. I believe McGuinness is the best manager among the top teams for instance which is a big advantage for Donegal.

I'll finish by asking you one more question. Since you seem to think Donegal have more individual talent than I am giving them credit for then how many of the current Donegal team would you include in an all Ireland XV select?

Its not about "winning an argument". I think there is a lot of disrespect out there for the talent of the Donegal players, typified by your and others "over achievement" claims, which are pretty thin given that this is the third season out of four in which Donegal won Ulster and made the AI semis, and second out of three in which they are in the final and possibly even champions. I don't care how well a team is prepared or coddled, if the talent isn't there, then they won't consistently be at the top. A game plan alone might bring you so far one year, but you can't have sustained success if you don't have the players. (And sure its only a year since the media (and this board) was celebrating the supposed end of Donegal, McGuinness and the blanket defense!).

And who is claiming that Donegal have the best players in certain positions? And why is "best player in position" relevant? You're talking about lads "overachieving" over a four year period! If they are not the best players, does that mean they are overachieving?

But I'll play, at least for a minute. Murphy would make no.14 on any best-of fifteen, IMO, even though he doesn't spend too much time there for Donegal. Lacey is obviously up there with the best, either as a centre back or a man-marking corner back, although he has a lot of miles run at this point. Is there a better fielder around than Neil Gallagher? The man has been superb at midfield this season. I wouldn't swap Neil McGee for any other full back. Young McHugh and MacNiallais have been superb this year, but this stuff is all stupid. How do you choose between three or four top class players for a position on an AI fifteen? And say, on overall average, we have playerss who might be only ranked fourth or fifth in their positions - does that make them overachievers in a championship where four or five teams might have a legitimate shot at winning?

[yellowcard]

Because my wife is from Kerry, and I have good friends down there. Is that ok? But I find this 'How many Ulster teams have Kerry lost to?' quite amusing. As if ye are all united against the Kingdom.  Sure how many Leinster or Connacht counties have they lost to over the years?

Well they've lost to more than half the Ulster counties, is this true of Leinster?

Dublin, Kildare, Wexford, Offaly, Meath and Louth. Louth's win though was technically a w/o.

To be fair most of those wins go back to when the GAA was formed. I'm not sure the Ulster hoodoo applies to the current Kerry team, it was more the 2000's bunch that had a mental barrier when it came to Ulster teams. Not many of that Kerry team remain, possibly 4 or 5 at most.

[Mike Sheehy]

Because my wife is from Kerry, and I have good friends down there. Is that ok? But I find this 'How many Ulster teams have Kerry lost to?' quite amusing. As if ye are all united against the Kingdom.  Sure how many Leinster or Connacht counties have they lost to over the years?

Well they've lost to more than half the Ulster counties, is this true of Leinster?

there are lies, damn lies and Ulster statistics     




 

[INDIANA]

It's becoming clear that Donegal are being bankrolled by a few Abramovich like characters in the background. Another 5 day camp


Do the donegal players work for a living or are they subsidised by these wealthy backers ?

There is a group of business people who are picking up the tab for things like the trips to Lough Erne & Johnstown House not to mention the helicopter trips to training.

Employers are also cutting players a lot of slack but that is the effect McGuinness is having here. Business people see someone who produces results & is professional in his approach & they are buying into the glamour of it all big time..

All I can say is, we'd better win the bloody thing now

Imagine the reaction if Dublin went for a 5 day training camp? Nice employers - must make my own enquries as to what Donegal players actually do during the day except train. Maybe they are ll gym instructors?

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

Kerry record v Ulster teams since 2000 (championship)
Played 16
Won 9
Drawn 1
Lost 6

Wins over Armagh (twice) and Tyrone included. Just for clarity. Hardly indicative of any sort of hoodoo?
2002 & 2008 finals were the biggest losses obviously. Games that Kerry could have performed better in but didn't. 2005 Tyrone were clearly a better team IMO.

Interesting to see Donegal lads having another training camp. Team expenditure report at end of year will be interesting!