Mayo Football and Hurling - Discussion pages

[Fishead_Sam]

I have locked the Doire V Maigh-Eo thread & pulled across one or two of the points to this one. Heres Rosnaruns main argument (totally disagree, but the mans intitled to his opinion)

I still havent heard one positive argument as to what good he has done. why should sam be 3 years away we were in 2 of the last 3 finals. we have a good supply  of u-21's coming through a huge resivoir of club players and a passion/desire/need within the county few others can match . we also have the countries best player in Ciaran Mcdonald ,
JOM had one huge advantage over recent Mayo manager in that he truly had the pick of the counties best playr un like others inrecent years , Tmort d brady CMcD all have had  limited involvement in the last few championships but o mahoney failed to bring the best out of them and ignored /Under used real talents such as K omalley gardiner kilcoyne d geraghty and Marty Mcnicholas and used 2 of his own clubmen who are far fromready for the fray.
ANd worst of all hes seem incapable of motivating this team which prev was never even an issue . do you think omanhonies team would have made that comback against dublin last year  based on last weeks perforance against what will prove to be a poor derry team, not a chance
What this Guy used to have he shouwed no signs of it this year.

[Fishead_Sam]

I'm not Rosnarun biggest fan (no offence Ros)  but Ill back him up on this point. Sam long before you started posting on this board Ros made it clear about his thoughts on JOM as a manager for mayo. This was before he was nominated for election as a FG candidate. I remember debates over about maughan and calling for JOM myself to be appointed as manager and Ros was consistent all the way through that he did not want him there. I don't think it was politically motivated back then and i don't think it is now. All the politics is now is another stick beat him with. You know my views on JOM and the election but I dont want to go back into that.

[Fishead_Sam]

I still havent heard one positive argument as to what good he has done. why should sam be 3 years away we were in 2 of the last 3 finals. we have a good supply  of u-21's coming through a huge resivoir of club players and a passion/desire/need within the county few others can match . we also have the countries best player in Ciaran Mcdonald ,
JOM had one huge advantage over recent Mayo manager in that he truly had the pick of the counties best playr un like others inrecent years , Tmort d brady CMcD all have had  limited involvement in the last few championships but o mahoney failed to bring the best out of them and ignored /Under used real talents such as K omalley gardiner kilcoyne d geraghty and Marty Mcnicholas and used 2 of his own clubmen who are far fromready for the fray.
ANd worst of all hes seem incapable of motivating this team which prev was never even an issue . do you think omanhonies team would have made that comback against dublin last year  based on last weeks perforance against what will prove to be a poor derry team, not a chance
What this Guy used to have he shouwed no signs of it this year.

Maybe our county's best arent good enough, i think the victory against Dublin had more to do with Dublin collapsing than with Mayo coming back from the dead.Also a lot of that team were in the last chance saloon when it came to All-Ireland medals and they fought one last fight. It didnt matter who was in charge this year, the players simply have too many miles on the clock without any time away from football and the appetite for the fight was gone. What proved it to me was Trevor Mort. in the championship this year,he was like a new man becuase of the little amount of football he played last year. It just seems we are going round in circles with this debate now.

[Fishead_Sam]

I still havent heard one positive argument as to what good he has done. why should sam be 3 years away we were in 2 of the last 3 finals. we have a good supply  of u-21's coming through a huge resivoir of club players and a passion/desire/need within the county few others can match . we also have the countries best player in Ciaran Mcdonald ,
JOM had one huge advantage over recent Mayo manager in that he truly had the pick of the counties best playr un like others inrecent years , Tmort d brady CMcD all have had  limited involvement in the last few championships but o mahoney failed to bring the best out of them and ignored /Under used real talents such as K omalley gardiner kilcoyne d geraghty and Marty Mcnicholas and used 2 of his own clubmen who are far fromready for the fray.
ANd worst of all hes seem incapable of motivating this team which prev was never even an issue . do you think omanhonies team would have made that comback against dublin last year  based on last weeks perforance against what will prove to be a poor derry team, not a chance
What this Guy used to have he shouwed no signs of it this year.

Ros, it is pointless trying to explain a positive argument to you when A) you won't listen to it and B) your own argument is as one-sided and bias as above. You refuse to take into account the fact that the players O'Mahoney took on were even more scarred than those Moran inherited. Last years final was an absolute humiliation, it set us back a long long way, even further than we thought at the time. What is the point discussing the Dublin comeback now? the Kerry slaughter happened afterwards and is more relevant at this stage. O'Mahoney didn't have a good year, that speaks for itself, but when the writing was really on the wall, he started to rebuild. You won't accept that he was right to let the older lads have one more go against Galway. Most of us think he was right to give them another shot, they failed, so he re-jigged the team in the middle of the c'ship. This appeared a bit daft yes, but I think he realised it's better to look to the future straight away. The re-building has now started for 2008, not that he deliberately wanted to go out of the 2007 c'ship, but when you realise mid-stream that the crew on board don't have what it takes, better to get the right men in at some stage. Ciaran Mac was the best player in the country in 2004, not since then can we genuinely argue he is anymore. I agree with Fishead Sam on Gardiner and Geraghty, just not up to it. You simply won't accept that alot of forces were against Johnno this year, all this crap about him inheriting a great bunch of players is a load of sh1te, some of them were great but don't have it in the heads or legs anymore. The U-21s are the future but it will take time to get them up to the standard. A summer off will do all of them alot of good, they just don't have the desire and even a coach as brillant as O'Mahoney can't make them want it. If we are still having this discussion in a years time you may have a point, I am going to wait until next season before casting judgement, by which time I expect us to be a serious outfit again and having a genuine cut at chasing Sam. This year like 2005 is a hangover year in my opinion, it will pass and we will come back stronger. If you want to keep going round in circles in the mean-time bringing up the same old arguments be my guest.

[Fishead_Sam]

I still havent heard one positive argument as to what good he has done. why should sam be 3 years away we were in 2 of the last 3 finals. we have a good supply  of u-21's coming through a huge resivoir of club players and a passion/desire/need within the county few others can match . we also have the countries best player in Ciaran Mcdonald ,
JOM had one huge advantage over recent Mayo manager in that he truly had the pick of the counties best playr un like others inrecent years , Tmort d brady CMcD all have had  limited involvement in the last few championships but o mahoney failed to bring the best out of them and ignored /Under used real talents such as K omalley gardiner kilcoyne d geraghty and Marty Mcnicholas and used 2 of his own clubmen who are far fromready for the fray.
ANd worst of all hes seem incapable of motivating this team which prev was never even an issue . do you think omanhonies team would have made that comback against dublin last year  based on last weeks perforance against what will prove to be a poor derry team, not a chance
What this Guy used to have he shouwed no signs of it this year.

While I'm prepared to acknowledge that you're consistent, you are descending into a desparate rant here.   For starters, T Mort had a good year and McDonald hasn't effectively got over the injury sustained before last year's AIF.  Gardiner is limited defensively.  McGarrity's difficulties are well known.

It's simplistic in the extreme to think that just because Mayo played in the All-Ireland final last year they should go on and perform to the same level this year because we have a new manager, with a good track record, at the helm. I can't disagree that his eye might have been off the ball until after the election.

I understand your frustration, but what's another year or two after over half a century without Sam?  Mayo had fundamental problems last season which weren't shown up until Kerry rolled over them.  That could well have happened again this year.

Would you have preferred that outcome to our season?  Another All-Ireland humiliation.  Would you really prefer that to an exit through the backdoor.

How did exactly did Moran engineer Mayo to come from seven points down against Dublin? Had Jason Sherlock not hit the crossbar in the first-half Mayo would have been ten points down and out the door.


There isn't another country in Ireland (bar Kerry) what wouldn't take on O'Mahony.  Your constant references to his job and political affiliation suggest you are motivated than something other than football.


O'Mahony is as shrewd as they come and is probably hurting over this defeat.  As a, TD it's not as if he can keep his head down.  He will now go away and plan for the future with the meticulousness for which he is renowed. Remember, if he doesn't land Sam, the Mayo football public willl show him what they think of that when they go to vote at the next General Election

My personal preference is that this is done without Conor Mortimer if he continues in his current vein of form.  One point from a free is a shocking return for someone once rated as one of the best fowards in the country, but that type of display is not limited to the O'Mahony regieme.

Regardless of what one thinks of the manger, it's time to look to the long-term.

[Fishead_Sam]

Ok lets manipulate the stats a bit in favour of Rosnarun. John O'Mahony was involved in 5 championship matches in his last two championship season, one with Galway, the other with Mayo. Results - lost to Mayo by 6, beat one of the poorest Louth teams to play the game, lost to Tyrone by 7/8 points, thrahsed by Galway by 7 points, beat an awful Cavan team, lost to Derry by 10 points. Hardly inspiring stuff.

BUT it is the long-term programmes that we are told, and know are being put in place that makes people happy to stick with this project. He was on Newstalk last night and said that he will have the young players back sooner rather than later. You cannot be thrashed in two All Irelands within 3 years and just ignore the real facts. You lose out for a reason. We were way off the pace and was it not for being lucky enough to draw Fermanagh, and getting a run on the Dubs those days may never have come.

Now to the nonsense. Firstly Peadar Gardiner cannot defend, but putting him up front is ridiculous. He cannot kick the ball. A bit of a problem. He is just one of our players that has this problem. Technical deficiencies must be overcome if we are to achieve anything, and that starts with the very basics of the game.

Direction must also be brought to our game. It should be carefully structured. Part of the problem with our team and our defending is an unwillingness to work. Have the players that dying ambition to win an All Ireland, or to succeed to reach their maximum ability? I don't know. There is no reason why the work ethic of a team like Tyrone cannot be introduced to our play. If you don't have it you are of flawed character when it comes to playing football. You look at our lads after they concede scores, miss points. They are running around like the proverbial sheep, nobody cajoling, leading.

We need to be metronomical in our play. If there is a free in area X it should be taken by player Y. Every contingency should be planned for. This takes time. On Saturday numerous times David Brady and Trevor Mortimer wasted possession from dead balls kicked aimlessly. There was no direction. David Brady has been a great player for the county, as have many of the older lads, but do they want to take direction? Will they listen?

I truely believe that if you become so analytical about your play and introduce that work ethic to your training, all preparation and your game, the true skills will emerge.

If any of us are realistic, even in hindsight, the year was going to come to a sudden and painful end. We blooded three 19 year olds who did not play any intercounty football this year. Criticisms of Cunniffe, Kilcullen or Hanley are unfair. They were learning their trade against players that had years of experience and full season of training ahead of them. You can't just throw fifteen fellas together in July and not expect to be caught out. JOM knew that was going to happen, whatever you say about him he is nobody's fool.

And so the meticulousness that I mention is something that JOM is renowned for. He has started the ball rolling. A purge of last Summers heroes would not have been easily swallowed last February.The evidence is there to do that now albeit that a degree of change could have started by having some younger players as subs.

The political issue is pertinent. It did interfere with arrangements for Salthill. There can be little doubt about that. But that is understandable. I don't agree with the way Moran was fired. I do believe that it was an appointment of convenience for both JOM and the County Board who have blue leanings. However the election is over. Many wanted this man in the job for years. He took over an over-achieving team who even at their peak under JOM would probably have struggle to win All irelands without the two or three top-class forwards needed to lead a championship winning side. The time for bitching is done. I'm going to place my trust in the man. I do believe in some of the young lads and I hope that a burning desire to succeed will mean that come 2009 or 2010 a town full of Roscommon men will have to spend 12 months looking at the TD living at the edge of the town polishing Sam Maguire every Monday morning before he packs his bags for another week serving his constituents. And if he was to achieve the ultimate John O'Mahony would have done more for the county of Mayo than any politican could ever achieve. The desparation for an All Ireland in the county is crippling at this point in time. I hope we have the coolest head at the helm who will stick with the job and be patient and see it through with that touch of luck that will be needed.

[MacDanger]

A few good points there Rosnarun but your main thrust seems to be that JOM should not be manager of Mayo Senior football team.

Well them who should we have??

You appear to belittle JOM's achievements of winning the AI in '98 and '01? In that case we are left with just 4 candidates suitable for the job..............Paudie, Joe, Mickey H and P O'C..........two of those are retired and the other two are atill working.................whats' your suggestion?? Very few here agreed with M & M's shafting but ther's no point complaining about it......................however if you have our saviour wrapped in html over there, please let us know..................

For what it's worth, I believe JOM made some massive mistakes this season..................that said, he is still the best man to be at the helm next year.................keep the faith....................

[stephenite]

Even if we had a different manager this year, Harte or Jack O'Connor or even stayed with Moran and Morrison I don't believe that our situation would be drastically different, the problems that we faced in each of the last few years are still there, we are not strong enough in certain key defensive positions at the moment - injuries haven't helped the team but I don't think any of the players that are out injured would have played at no's 3 & 6

[mannix]

not sure if jom made mistakes at all, he is smarter than most and will have a strong team of young fellas ready to challenge in a few years.The older lads of today have run their course and will retire now and next year.

[the Deel Rover]

not sure if jom made mistakes at all, he is smarter than most and will have a strong team of young fellas ready to challenge in a few years.The older lads of today have run their course and will retire now and next year.

i have asked this question before mannix not to you but others,of the team that started last saturday apart from david brady and maybe David heaney who is going to retire? The answer no one they are the future of mayo football and they should have been bursting a gut to impress the new manager but they didn't ,derry toyed with us for the full game, thats the worrying thing about last week the team did not seem motivated  and that was with 5 of last years under 21's starting

[mannix]

Point taken, k oneill,j nallen,d brady,d heaney, c mac and a few of the starters are on thin ice.D heaney and mac may survive another term but its wearing thin for them too.I am an optimist by nature but i must say lately i am beginning to loose faith in the green and red and hate to give ground to dublin and co.C mort is a top drawer scorer but where was he last september or against galway or derry?If our best are that easily stopped--------well you see where i am going.I think its time to reshuffle and see what is available or will be available with the right training in place for them.Just because a lad is young and in the panel does not give him any right not to be dropped, i had no faith in barry moran but he looks like a prospect at fullforward,maybe seamas o se or tom parsons could be the new d brady, remember him cleaning meath in both games in 96, we need fresh legs because after 10 or 12 years chasing your tail you will still never catch it.
Living in hope, but just about.

[Redgreenery]

Them players may be on thin ice, K O Neill and J Nallen are defineatly gone for next year I'd say and hope they are too, we need to get the new blood in and settled, D Brady I'd say is probably gone aswell, as for C McD depending on his back, I wouldnt be surprised if he goes for it one more time, and D Heaney, I reckon he'll defineatly still be there next year as he still has things to offer and could play in mabye a corner back position such as Peader Gardiners and will be a fill-in for midfield and any other position in the backs.

[FL/MAYO]

Heaney has another year or two left, he just seems to be one of these players that are just naturally fit all the time. Macdonald I hear has a couple of herniated discs that can cause major pain when they flare up, surgery might be the answer for him but there are no guarantees with back surgery. Some time of will do him good though. Nallen and Brady are at the end but could offer some much needed experience and leadership from the sideline. It would be good to keep them around. A few months of will do the whole panel a lot of good...rest up and get the appetite back. Some good young players coming through which leaves a lot of optimism for the future. Looking forward to the next couple of years and hoping there are no more major distractions for JOM.

[Barney]

In fairness to James Nallen I think his legs were gone come the All Ireland Final in 2004. He has played some good football since then, especially the league final this year. He may have a role to play from the bench in league games but probably not come the Summer. One of my favourites of all time, and possibly the best Mayo player of the last 25 years.

Anybody in Celtic Park last Saturday would reckon that David Brady is gone. He seemed to lack enthusism for the rebuilding job, and just did not have the athleticism to play midfield at the top level. Such a deficiency would really be highlighted in a big game in Croke Park.

There is a few years left in Heaney no doubt. Is he only 30?

McDonald - depends on his back. Would like to see him give it one more shot. Could be a great influence on the youngs lads.

O'Neill - I think he'll call it a day. He had an indian summer that none of us expected. He has a good job with a lot of travel and is getting on.

Remember JOM was picking alternative XVs in the Western when Maughan was manager, well the predecessor is having a bit of a dig in this weeks Mayo Advertiser - referring to Mayo as "we" "us" etc. really bugs the Rossie lads!

I was in Celtic Park, Derry on Saturday evening and I saw Mickey Moran not too far away from me. I suspect he knew his every facial twitch would be monitored quite closely by people around him, but still I couldn't help notice a bit of a smile on his face.

Not that Mickey would want Mayo to lose, but he must have wondered at the irony of his vacating the Mayo manager's job last year, only to see the team end this year on such a low point. This was a dismal performance by Mayo, with very few redeeming features, and it leaves the county at a low enough ebb for the end of 2007 – although I would urge people not to despair as there is a splendid crop of 19, 20 and 21-year-olds out there chomping at the bit.

Over the years teams have traditionally used the National Football League to blood new players. Mayo didn't do that this year and perhaps got carried away a little by the fact that they reached the league final.

But the dogs in the street could have told you that some players who got through the league wouldn't be able to cut it come championship time and this was when the experimentation should have started. Some of the players who lined out on Saturday last didn't get enough game time in the league and some didn't get any at all.

That was a mistake and it left Mayo in a confused state going into the championship. Once Galway bored holes in us we were scrambling and the result was that we had to put out teams that were extremely high on experimentation. So rather than experimenting in the league we ended up experimenting in the championship. When I was manager in 2004/5 I came in for a lot of criticism for not selecting certain players who were cutting the mustard at club level at that time. But as most knowledgeable GAA people know there is a serious step up to inter county standard. Why would any manager not select players if he and his management team thought they would be good enough at inter-county level? One or two of those players were recalled this year and again were found wanting at this level.

I thought the selection policy for the Derry game was unusual too. After seeing the Cavan match, I presumed we would not go with Liam O'Malley at full-back again. Liam has many fine characteristics and, in my view, would make a wonderful wing half-back which is where I expect him to play next season.

But he is not a full-back. He just isn't big enough. You can't ignore that fact. Full-back is a very specialist position. Even Tyrone have troubles there. But you certainly can't go with a full-back who is too short for the role.

Cavan showed up his shortcomings, and it wasn't a good plan to go to Celtic Park with Liam at full-back again, particularly against a full-forward line as potent as the one Derry possess.

In my opinion David Heaney should have been played there. He has experience and guile and, while he is not in the first flush of youth, he would have been a better bet for this outing. I also suspect that Liam O'Malley's confidence has taken a battering from his few games at full-back and that too must be addressed for next year.

We were in trouble in other places too. We never got to grips at midfield and lived off scraps for most of the game. David Kilcullen, while possessing a lot of talent, still has a lot to learn in the centre half back position at this level. James Nallen might have been a better candidate for a rugged trip to a place like Celtic Park.

Up front only Barry Moran caused any real trouble, asking questions of no less a player than Kevin McCloy. However, I think Barry will end up midfield on this Mayo team – I'd like to see Ronan McGarrity given an extended run at full-forward next year. Barry has done very well at full-forward in the past few games, but I don't think he possesses the agility and sharpness required for full-forward. That said, he is a good footballer, is only 21 years of age and has all the attributes to play at midfield for the next number of years.

Alan Dillon showed some sparks in the first half and I can only assume he was injured when he didn't appear for the second.

Aidan Campbell contributed reasonably well for the 15 minutes he was on the field and I don't think his confidence will have been helped by his substitution. There were a number of players on the pitch a lot longer who contributed less.

Another to give a good account of himself was Aidan Kilcoyne, though his role as a substitute was brief because of his injury. Aidan played some great games for Mayo last year as a sub and perhaps he is one of those players who will also do best coming off the bench. On the form he showed last Saturday we should have seen him earlier in this championship.

Conor Mortimer didn't sparkle and Andy Moran was quiet too. Andy will have a real appreciation of what it's like to meet one of the best defenders in the modern game and Sean Marty Lockard is one of the best. Our team captain, Kevin O'Neill, came off the bench late in the game but he couldn't make an impact.

Despite all this, there was still a period when we looked like winning the match. After being dominated early in the game we got the lucky break following a bad mistake by the Derry goalkeeper big Barry Gillis – the ball fell to the even bigger Barry Moran and we had a soft goal.

I was behind the Derry management and they were rattled. They couldn't believe that, after all their domination, the teams were level after 20 minutes.

In the second-half it was 1-8 apiece after 15 minutes and it looked as if we might win it, despite not playing well. But then David Clarke failed to deal with a high ball on the edge of the square and Derry had the ball in the net for an easy goal. This swung the momentum in Derry's favour and we began to leak all over the field.

Looking forward to next year is for another day. But we have good players on the up: I can see Tom Cunniffe at centre half-back next year, Pierce Hanley at 11, Ronan at 14, Barry at midfield, Liam O'Malley at wing-back, and Keith Higgins back in the fold too.

We have Trevor Howley, too, who was magnificent on Saturday. He put his body on the line. In one cameo early in the second half he almost lost the ball coming out of defence, nearly fell out over the sideline, but still he came out with the ball and cleared his lines. A great man, playing with his heart on his sleeve.

If we had four or five Trevor Howleys, men with that kind of determination, we'd take a lot of beating. Trevor Mortimer put his body on the line throughout the game and he is one player who has nothing to be embarrassed about after this outing.

We are not top heavy with good young forwards, but hopefully a few will emerge over the coming weeks of the county championship.



The Dubs and the fuss


I've always had a soft spot for the Dubs. They bring colour and razzmatazz when they get an extended run in the championship. The banter is mighty and there is no more colourful sight than Hill 16 on championship days.

But I thought their antics last Sunday were pathetic. Good players should never stoop so low and I thought Mark Vaughan and Alan Brogan's taunting of their Laois opponents was an ugly sight. Darren Rooney (Laois) is a big man and I am sure well able to take care of himself. He showed remarkable restraint and is to be complimented for not lowering himself to the standards of the opposition.

Management should deal with that kind of stuff, nip it in the bud. It was the main low point for the Dubs. I thought they were very impressive, though Laois could have hit them for a few more goals.

I still put Kerry and Cork in the first two positions for this year's Sam, with Dublin third. I would like to see them tested like Mayo tested them last year. They will get that test soon enough.

[Redgreenery]

In fairness to James Nallen I think his legs were gone come the All Ireland Final in 2004. He has played some good football since then, especially the league final this year. He may have a role to play from the bench in league games but probably not come the Summer. One of my favourites of all time, and possibly the best Mayo player of the last 25 years.

Anybody in Celtic Park last Saturday would reckon that David Brady is gone. He seemed to lack enthusism for the rebuilding job, and just did not have the athleticism to play midfield at the top level. Such a deficiency would really be highlighted in a big game in Croke Park.

There is a few years left in Heaney no doubt. Is he only 30?

McDonald - depends on his back. Would like to see him give it one more shot. Could be a great influence on the youngs lads.

O'Neill - I think he'll call it a day. He had an indian summer that none of us expected. He has a good job with a lot of travel and is getting on.

Remember JOM was picking alternative XVs in the Western when Maughan was manager, well the predecessor is having a bit of a dig in this weeks Mayo Advertiser - referring to Mayo as "we" "us" etc. really bugs the Rossie lads!

I'd agree with all that but with Nallen and K O Neill I'd say they are totally done, especially Nallen no doubt he has provided us with good football over the years and we owe alot to him, but time to call it a day and get the new blood in. During the league if he plays a part on the bench so be it, but I'd like to see new lads been tried out in the league.

As for Maughan referring to 'we' and 'us' about Mayo it's funny cause I know loads of Rossies that have gone on about it many times and he's done that all through his career, ya hear him on radio commentary like that!