Intercounty apathy a worrying trend

[thewobbler]

Also, re player and spectator apathy within a tiered system, I genuinely believe that if you gave everyone competitive, regular games during the spring/summer months you'd generate plenty of interest.
Again, the devil would be in the detail and I'm sure there would be issues regarding how this structure would dovetail with the club season AND the inter-county hurling season.

good man.

I suppose the only question I have left for you to answer surrounds your long term vision to rewire GAA culture. just how many years of 26 people turning up to watch an experimental Leitrim side get slapped by an Antrim B side would you need, before you might accept that its not working?

This might sound pious and tetchy, but I'm genuinely curious. I can think of dozens of successfully relaunched competitions at the highest level across all sorts of sports. But I can't think of any for lower levels of sport, with the underlying reason being that they don't capture the imagination.

[thewobbler]

Lenny you really need to gain a bit of balance.

Don't compare a worst case scenario in the current championship with the ideal scenario in your version.

Compare the middle.

Which is Down v Derry in both versions.

If you honestly believe that an intermediate championship match will attract more supporters than a senior championship match, then your head is so far wedged under a stone that you can no longer see a grain of light.

[Jinxy]

Also, re player and spectator apathy within a tiered system, I genuinely believe that if you gave everyone competitive, regular games during the spring/summer months you'd generate plenty of interest.
Again, the devil would be in the detail and I'm sure there would be issues regarding how this structure would dovetail with the club season AND the inter-county hurling season.

good man.

I suppose the only question I have left for you to answer surrounds your long term vision to rewire GAA culture. just how many years of 26 people turning up to watch an experimental Leitrim side get slapped by an Antrim B side would you need, before you might accept that its not working?

This might sound pious and tetchy, but I'm genuinely curious. I can think of dozens of successfully relaunched competitions at the highest level across all sorts of sports. But I can't think of any for lower levels of sport, with the underlying reason being that they don't capture the imagination.

No, the underlying reason is they already have an appropriate grading system in place.
I did a quick scan of Leitrim's results in the league and to the best of my knowledge they won two games and lost five.
Three of the games they lost only by a point.
That's the very definition of competitive football.
Sure, they'll still get the odd tanking but that happens every now and again at every grade in every sport.
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

[lenny]

Lenny you really need to gain a bit of balance.

Don't compare a worst case scenario in the current championship with the ideal scenario in your version.

Compare the middle.

Which is Down v Derry in both versions.

If you honestly believe that an intermediate championship match will attract more supporters than a senior championship match, then your head is so far wedged under a stone that you can no longer see a grain of light.

Derry v down at the moment is completely meaningless in an all Ireland context. It has no attraction for me. If however we met in a quarter final of an all Ireland intermediate championship it would be compelling viewing.

[Esmarelda]

With regards to the suggestion of a Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championship as seen in club football, could we look at what this might entail?

I presume we'd have roughly the same number in each so say eleven counties in each.

Based on current league standings we would end up with Cavan competing with Dublin, Mayo and Kerry. How would this benefit Cavan?

Intermediate wouldn't be too bad but in Junior we'd have New York and London competing with Westmeath and Louth. How would this benefit them?

Again, who is that we're trying to benefit from such a re-jig?

[Jinxy]

New York wouldn't be in it.
Anyway, like I said before you'd ideally have a honeymoon period (say 3 years?) where counties would know that their championship status would be based on their league standing in year 3.
If you're still hanging around the arse end of division 3/4 by then, I guess that's your level.

[Jinxy]

Kieran Martin: 'We need to get out of Division Four'

"We're going to push hard to get out of Division 4 and, if we do, we do...but look, it's not the end of the world."

http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kieran-martin-need-get-out-division-four/

It'll be the end of the world if I get my way!

[Lone Shark]

......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

[Rossfan]

Local pride and all that plus you seed the Provincial winners.
Anyway as of now the Provincials are only a big deal for someone who hasn't won in a while e.g Monaghan 2013 or Galway 2016.
I doubt Mayowestros were too upset at not winning Connacht last year especially around the time they were preparing for the AI Final.

[AZOffaly]

Local pride and all that plus you seed the Provincial winners.
Anyway as of now the Provincials are only a big deal for someone who hasn't won in a while e.g Monaghan 2013 or Galway 2016.
I doubt Mayowestros were too upset at not winning Connacht last year especially around the time they were preparing for the AI Final.

There are only about 3 or 4 counties for whom a provincial title would not be a big deal. Dublin, Mayo, Kerry are the ones off the top of my head. There are at least 10 other counties that might realistically hope to win a provincial, and it would be a big deal for each of them.

[Zulu]

......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

[Lone Shark]

......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

No, I don't accept that at all. Winning a provincial title is a big deal for 90% of the counties out there, and even for the other three or four, the games are still taken seriously because it's the easiest route through the All Ireland series. Mayo might have reached the All Ireland final this year but they were clearly vulnerable when they played Fermanagh back in early July, and could easily have been booted out if they got a tougher, away draw and didn't raise their game a bit. Provincial games are full blooded occasions now, and that's as it should be - but that won't last if you make them stand alone competitions.

[Rossfan]

Some awful gloomy predictions altogether
Why do we need Provincial Councils any more?
Surely a small Committee of 1 Rep from each County could with the usual volunteers/ stewards run the Championships.
As for giving out grants etc I suspect that could easily be done from Croke Park.
The whole Provincial structure comes from the horse and cart and communication by letter era.

[Jinxy]

......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

No, I don't accept that at all. Winning a provincial title is a big deal for 90% of the counties out there, and even for the other three or four, the games are still taken seriously because it's the easiest route through the All Ireland series. Mayo might have reached the All Ireland final this year but they were clearly vulnerable when they played Fermanagh back in early July, and could easily have been booted out if they got a tougher, away draw and didn't raise their game a bit. Provincial games are full blooded occasions now, and that's as it should be - but that won't last if you make them stand alone competitions.

I'm not so sure about this since the qualifiers were brought in.
Anyway, lets say the bigger teams become less interested in winning a provincial championship that is secondary to a tiered structure.
Surely that's good for the weaker teams as it increases their chances of taking a scalp and maybe even winning some silverware.

[Zulu]

......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

No, I don't accept that at all. Winning a provincial title is a big deal for 90% of the counties out there, and even for the other three or four, the games are still taken seriously because it's the easiest route through the All Ireland series. Mayo might have reached the All Ireland final this year but they were clearly vulnerable when they played Fermanagh back in early July, and could easily have been booted out if they got a tougher, away draw and didn't raise their game a bit. Provincial games are full blooded occasions now, and that's as it should be - but that won't last if you make them stand alone competitions.

I'm not so sure about this since the qualifiers were brought in.
Anyway, lets say the bigger teams become less interested in winning a provincial championship that is secondary to a tiered structure.
Surely that's good for the weaker teams as it increases their chances of taking a scalp and maybe even winning some silverware.

But the provincials are not even close to being full blooded anymore. The Munster hurling championship, the one held up the most, has been awful with small crowds for a good few years now.

If the provincials need to be linked to the All Ireland to retain interest then it's logical to suggest they have no intrinsic value themselves. Play them as stand alone competitions if you like but I can't see how anyone can know the problems we have (club and county level) and still argue for the provincials as a core element of the championship.