Author Topic: Joe Brolly  (Read 425824 times)

Milltown Row2

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4095 on: November 12, 2017, 10:11:36 AM »
A vicious circle thats never ending it seems... It's a pity people wont let go, I can imagine seeking justice would be your primary role in life if you have lost a loved one, thats over 3,500 who died over the troubles that families won't let go and i get that, a proper truth commission is the only way.. once through that then people can heal (of sorts)

I didnt realise there was still that much bitterness on here, doesn't take much for it to rise to the surface

There is no chance you or anyone else would ask Peadar to 'let go'. It would be unfair to ask that. He has some horrible injuries and trauma caused by someone else. In fact, we would expect him to not let go or move on. Nor would we describe him as bitter. We would all argue he has a right to be angry and frustrated but would not use the word 'bitter'.
THis applies to all victims. There are many victims on all sides. Some victims deal with it in a different way to others. Victims should not be expected to have the same approach as each other nor the same approach as non victims. To ask them to 'let it go' is inhumane. It needs a much wider all inclusive approach.

A poster claimed earlier that it doesn't take much to stir up the bitterness. This is not the case. For that poster this is a reminder. One which pops up now and then. Victims live with reminders everyday. Peadar does not need a headline story or a national debate to remind him of how he feels.

There is a hierarchy of victims. There always is. There is a wider acceptance that those hurt by security forces in some way, regardless of who they are, hold some of the responsibility. If not then the community do, or the political leaders do etc. It is clearer to see the outrage of prisoners being abused in Guatanamo Bay by Irish people yet accusations of torture in Ireland do not cause outrage. There is blame attached to the victims here.

There is never the same innocence applied to victims of the security forces. That's the winners writing the history as we watch it unfold. Victims of security forces are asked to let it go or to move on much more than victims of paramilitaries. I think it's wrong to ask this of any victim. Addressing it is the only cure, forgetting or ignoring won't solve anything.

I donít know where to start with this reply... there is no difference or hierarchy of victims of the troubles, whether he was a peeler shot at his front door or an IRA man shot on active duty to the innocent victim caught out by a bomb blast, all victims all suffering, all wanting closure if they didnít get it!

There has been over 3,500 deaths Iíd say 20% of those deaths the perpetrators were caught and a closure of sorts given, though with the GFA they were let out of gaol.

If we continue to go down the route of trying to solve every case it will take another 30 years and millions of money! A proper truth commission will at least give closure to the majority of those cases, in most cases the police know who did it but didnít have the evidence to prove it... I never said it would be easy to let go, the bitterness will always be there..

If we donít move on then weíll not get proper policing shared communities integrated schools and intergrated living! Seems for most thatís not what they are looking for
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Jim Bob

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4096 on: November 12, 2017, 10:31:30 AM »

Who are they?  Why does SF not go all out to ensure that Catholics would feel comfortable in a career in community policing?

You know who they are.

I'm banging my head against a wall here. Your problem with policing is really your problem with SF.
Again with the Community policing. Not that I care what SF do most of the time but they do support community policing. They have no choice as communities need policing. The only reason they joined the board was to break the wall between communities and police. They didn't do nor can they do it, to break the legacy of policing or the culture of political policing.
Can you accept that community policing is not the barrier to feeling safe?

Exactly, SF are not a recruitment agency. PSNI are responsible for that. Milltown mentioned a Truth Commission, it seems a plausible idea but SF can never go for it. That truth commission should only be for those members of the security forces and/or informants who wronged imo. Anyone else were unpaid citizens of the state who were carrying out what they seen as a justified campaign. If SF sign up for a full truth commission they could be throwing some of their own under the bus.

Doubt if they would claim to be citizens of the state they were trying overthrow.  However, I would be interested in them justifying the killing of so many civilians, being the killers of the greatest number of Catholics and particularly their sectarian murders such as Kingsmills, La Mon, Enniskillen and so many more.

Does being paid by the IRA through robberies and overseas fundraising not count for the IRA members?

War is war. Mistakes happen. Innocent people get caught in the crossfire unfortunately. Whilst we're asking the IRA to apologise for killing civilians will we email Donald Trump and ask him to apologise for Hiroshima? Or was that a more justified massacre of civilians? Like it or lump it, the Catholic/ Nationalist community wouldn't have the rights or chances we have without the IRA campaign. Now the Catholic ''Middle-Class'' will never acknowledge this but its fact.


Who told you that, Gerry Adams?

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4097 on: November 12, 2017, 07:37:39 PM »
Now we have fake dissident threats!! You are properly blinded lad... Omagh was fake youíll be telling me next, you probably blame the media for that or the police! I know who you wonít blame

The Police have to take a share of the blame for Omagh for both letting it happen and the subsequent investigation which makes you ponder.

No one has responsibility or blame for the killing of 29 innocents in Omagh other than the IRA members who planned the attack, built the bomb, delivered it to Omagh, set the timer, failed to give correct details of the position of the bomb, helped all involved to escape and have given them support and kept them safe since 1998. 

According to your twisted analysis the fault for all similar atrocities by the IRA, for example in Enniskillen, La Mon House Hotel, Claudy, etc, belongs to the police. 

In the same way do you believe that the Garda has responsibility for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings?

I certainly think security forces not acting on information that could have prevented a bombing certainly bear a responsibility. I don't defend the bombers but the RUC certainly have to take a portion of the blame, through incompetence or for political capital information which could have stopped the bombing was ignored by the RUC and MI6.

I think the Gardai and Irish Government share a great deal of responsibility for not bringing justice to the families of the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings which has the fingerprints of British involvement all over them.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4098 on: November 12, 2017, 07:45:07 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4099 on: November 12, 2017, 07:49:30 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4100 on: November 12, 2017, 07:54:21 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

Plant a bomb take responsibility... police kill an innocent persons take responsibility... Ive no problem in apportioning blame, itís a murky business but nobody knows who was in bed with who in this.. but donít be a dick a claim that the police are to blame for Omagh
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4101 on: November 12, 2017, 08:03:56 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

Plant a bomb take responsibility... police kill an innocent persons take responsibility... Ive no problem in apportioning blame, itís a murky business but nobody knows who was in bed with who in this.. but donít be a dick a claim that the police are to blame for Omagh

So security forces not acting on intelligence that can prevent bombings and killings of innocent people is an irrelevance?

Dissident republicans are rejected by the majority of the nationalist community. I don't see anyone supporting their bombings here. You on the other hand want to censure any concerns about the security forces of this state failing the duty they are tasked with, the safety of its citizens.

The PSNI or RUC (as they were in their previous guise) are a state security force that are tasked with protecting the citizens of the state and what you seem to be telling us is that is perfectly ok for them to ignore or not act on intelligence that puts people lives at risk?

And you wonder why many nationalists have a problem supporting them?

Owen Brannigan

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4102 on: November 12, 2017, 08:05:03 PM »
Back to the thread.  Pointless wasting time on the brainwashed unable to accept that those committing violence carry the entire blame the consequences for their actions.  Perhaps it's the only way they can analyse away the futility of 30 years of conflict.

This week's sermon:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/joe-brolly/joe-brolly-we-do-things-differently-up-north-just-ask-henry-shefflin-36311180.html

In short, Slaughtneil brilliant, Creggan not so good, nobody can understand us in the North.

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4103 on: November 12, 2017, 08:17:08 PM »
Back to the thread.  Pointless wasting time on the brainwashed unable to accept that those committing violence carry the entire blame the consequences for their actions.  Perhaps it's the only way they can analyse away the futility of 30 years of conflict.

This week's sermon:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/joe-brolly/joe-brolly-we-do-things-differently-up-north-just-ask-henry-shefflin-36311180.html

In short, Slaughtneil brilliant, Creggan not so good, nobody can understand us in the North.

What about those who are there to prevent those from committing violence but fail in their duty to do so by either incompetence or for political capital? Why are you so intent on censoring that debate?

Jim Bob

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4104 on: November 12, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

 Could you outline in detail your abhorrence of the enniskillen bombing and what sentence you think,the bombers should have received if they had been caught?

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4105 on: November 12, 2017, 08:38:35 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

 Could you outline in detail your abhorrence of the enniskillen bombing and what sentence you think,the bombers should have received if they had been caught?

Why are you cherry picking bombings now?

The Enniskillen bombing was wrong, of course it was.

But the security forces have failed in many cases over the years during the troubles and beyond to prevent bombings and losses of life they were capable of through incompetence of for political capital. Some people wish to suppress that discussion and it's very relevant when discussing nationalist's distrust of the PSNI and security forces.

Jim Bob

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4106 on: November 12, 2017, 08:41:15 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

 Could you outline in detail your abhorrence of the enniskillen bombing and what sentence you think,the bombers should have received if they had been caught?

Why are you cherry picking bombings now?

The Enniskillen bombing was wrong, of course it was.

But the security forces have failed in many cases over the years during the troubles and beyond to prevent bombings and losses of life they were capable of through incompetence of for political capital. Some people wish to suppress that discussion and it's very relevant when discussing nationalist's distrust of the PSNI and security forces.

One line on the bombers ........ and just to say it was Ďwrongí. You d think they parked in a disabled parking slot.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4107 on: November 12, 2017, 08:49:54 PM »
Back to the thread.  Pointless wasting time on the brainwashed unable to accept that those committing violence carry the entire blame the consequences for their actions.  Perhaps it's the only way they can analyse away the futility of 30 years of conflict.

This week's sermon:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/joe-brolly/joe-brolly-we-do-things-differently-up-north-just-ask-henry-shefflin-36311180.html

In short, Slaughtneil brilliant, Creggan not so good, nobody can understand us in the North.

What about those who are there to prevent those from committing violence but fail in their duty to do so by either incompetence or for political capital? Why are you so intent on censoring that debate?

Not censoring anything, just not willing to enter a debate on how IRA/UVF/UDA killers can be excused of their actions in slaughtering so many innocent people during 30 years of conflict.  The same logic that would excuse members of security services of their killings because their colleagues failed to stop them through incompetence or for political capital. Or perhaps take it a step further to conclude that Peter Sutcliffe is excused of killing 13 women because the police in Yorkshire were incompetent or were wanting to make some other point by not stopping him.  Truly twisted.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4108 on: November 12, 2017, 08:52:00 PM »
So not the bomb maker and person/s who ordered it ? Youíre a strange being, I remember the Enniskillen bomb which blew up pensioners, they tried to claim that the police triggered the bomb early!

People believed that to, same people who believe in Santa, Toothfairy, and aliens

Again where did I say they don't bear responsibility? Of course they do.

On the other hand, you seem to be attempting to censure any comment about how security forces have failed to act on intelligence of attacks. Why shouldn't we discuss that? The nationalist community still has a lot of mistrust with the PSNI and security forces and there is very good reason for that, you seem to wish to censure that.

 Could you outline in detail your abhorrence of the enniskillen bombing and what sentence you think,the bombers should have received if they had been caught?

Why are you cherry picking bombings now?

The Enniskillen bombing was wrong, of course it was.

But the security forces have failed in many cases over the years during the troubles and beyond to prevent bombings and losses of life they were capable of through incompetence of for political capital. Some people wish to suppress that discussion and it's very relevant when discussing nationalist's distrust of the PSNI and security forces.

Can just picture you now, in combat gear,  St Bridgetís cross on wall, image of the fallen GPO with Connelly on a chair! Wolf tones on the radio and you smoking a pipe while reading the Republican news!

Look lad answer this one and for a change forget about the peelers MI5 and the rest, not one poster is saying that they were not involved in cover ups killings or anything else you think..

Do you think that the person/s who organised and planted the bomb in Omagh and Enniskillen killed them on their own ? Because if they hadnít have planted a bomb then the police wouldnít have (in your words) through incompetence and political gain contributed to the death of these innocent people?

If you try and justify it with that crap again then Iíd say your as guilty as the ones that did it
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: Joe Brolly
« Reply #4109 on: November 12, 2017, 08:57:46 PM »
Back to the thread.  Pointless wasting time on the brainwashed unable to accept that those committing violence carry the entire blame the consequences for their actions.  Perhaps it's the only way they can analyse away the futility of 30 years of conflict.

This week's sermon:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/columnists/joe-brolly/joe-brolly-we-do-things-differently-up-north-just-ask-henry-shefflin-36311180.html

In short, Slaughtneil brilliant, Creggan not so good, nobody can understand us in the North.

What about those who are there to prevent those from committing violence but fail in their duty to do so by either incompetence or for political capital? Why are you so intent on censoring that debate?

Not censoring anything, just not willing to enter a debate on how IRA/UVF/UDA killers can be excused of their actions in slaughtering so many innocent people during 30 years of conflict.  The same logic that would excuse members of security services of their killings because their colleagues failed to stop them through incompetence or for political capital. Or perhaps take it a step further to conclude that Peter Sutcliffe is excused of killing 13 women because the police in Yorkshire were incompetent or were wanting to make some other point by not stopping him.  Truly twisted.

who is excusing them? As far as I'm aware nobody has defended the bombers here in relation to Peader Heffron but people have articulated why they could not support or may have objected to a person they knew joining the PSNI which were legitimate attitudes to have.

Legitimacy of bombers is a straw man argument in this discussion. Dissident republicans have little support in the wider nationalist community these days.