Mayo v Dubs 2 July

[highorlow]

your punishment

My point exactly, it's punishment on amateur players. I know the god dam rule and knew it weeks ago and most folk here predicted the outcomes of the QFs for that reason. Doesn't mean it's right though.

[seafoid]

your punishment

My point exactly, it's punishment on amateur players. I know the god dam rule and knew it weeks ago and most folk here predicted the outcomes of the QFs for that reason. Doesn't mean it's right though.

Frontloading the provincials and having 3 weekends on the trot will have to be looked at again.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/07/03/mayo-people-will-put-up-with-a-lot-but-they-wont-accept-meek-surrender/

Mayo people will put up with a lot but they won't accept meek surrender
The Weekend That Was: Kevin McStay was probably correct that it hadn't been a bad season, but the assertion was a little tin-eared given the ritual slaughter that had just taken place


Malachy Clerkin
Mon Jul 3 2023 - 15:46

This is a bad one for Mayo. Kevin McStay has enough experience of his people's sugar-rush highs and thumping-headache lows over the years to know that there's going to be a limited market for his brand of equanimity over the coming weeks. A season that looked to hold real promise at different stages ultimately collapsed like a bad soufflé. Mayo supporters are going to need more from their manager than calmly pointing out it's not been a bad season overall.

Every county has its own idea of an acceptable way to go out of the championship. Only one team can win Sam Maguire every year and so everyone else has to somehow be able to make their peace with it not being them. Going down to your worst defeat to Dublin since 2006 is not it. Not for most counties with aspirations and definitely not for Mayo.


Can Mayo feasibly claim theirs has more? McStay has never been the sugar-coating type, whether as a player, a pundit or a manager. And when he came into the Croke Park press room yesterday, he wasn't spinning like a party hack on the night of a bad election. He was straight up about Mayo's shortcomings. He particularly didn't put a tooth in it when it came to their kick-outs.

"We are not good enough at it yet," McStay said. "We are not up with the top teams in terms of our kick-out yet. But we will be, I have no doubt we will. We have great lads around it that will think it through and figure it out. And we'll get more experience. That's my own view and we'll be better for this.


"It's our first year together as a group and we are just finding each other out and figuring each other out. I've learned a lot about the boys and I'm sure they've tried to figure us out a bit as well. But overall I'm not broken or anything over this defeat. I'm disappointed for the big Mayo crowd that came up as they always do. But we'll take a break now to try and figure out where we have to go to next to get to another level."

Reasonable. Measured. McStay to the bone. Never too up, never too down. Even the bit that came next, from which the "McStay says it hasn't been a bad season" headlines came, deserves its full outing, for context.



"In mitigation I'm going to say our players gave us a great spin this year," McStay said. "We had four [rookies] – essentially, although they were panellists for a year or two they were rookies up around here and they will take an awful lot from this experience. And we had a decent spring.

"I have to look at this in the round and see where we are going. It's not what we wanted and championship is championship, I totally understand that. But in terms of building out what we wanted, it wasn't a bad year. It didn't end the way we wanted because we thought there was another round or two we might get to. But the Dubs fairly closed that door today."

All of which is grand and fine and perfectly true. But it was probably a little tin-eared too, given the ritual slaughter that had just gone on out on the pitch. Maybe it wasn't such a bad year in the round – a league title, beating Kerry in Killarney and Galway in Salthill, bedding in a few new players here and there.


On the flipside, Matthew Ruane has gone backwards, Aidan O'Shea's form dropped off as the year progressed, Padraig O'Hora got a few chasings. No team is perfect and McStay's contention that they have plenty to build on is obviously correct.


But none of it obscures the truth that hits them right between the eyes today. Their year ended with the meekest surrender of any Mayo team in well over a decade. Mayo people will put up with plenty before they find that kind of thing acceptable or forgivable. There's no good way to go out of the championship but of all the bad ways, this was by far the worst.

A fact about which McStay will no doubt be reminded quite a few times between now and next year.

[giveballaghback]

It's great that ''The Curse'' can no longer be used as a plausible excuse for results like today. Small mercies.

The bus driver might still be alive.

[Dubhaltach]

This game was basically won and lost in the 5 minutes after half time. It was a tough lesson for some of our lads to take but in reality, simple mistakes are ruthlessly punished at this level and they just cannot happen. It's pointless looking at anything that happened after the 2nd Dublin goal as the game was done at that stage.

Considering we finished the championship at the same stage, in similar circumstances last year, I suppose the year could be summed up as a sort of 'par for the course'. The win in Salthill saved management from it being a very bad year. When you look at the league performances of Dublin and Kerry, it's clear that the league counted for very little in the grander scheme of things so I don't think too much credit can be given towards the division 1 title.

While there was progress in some areas, there's a couple of things that need to be highlighted.

Game Management-Our first competitive match of the year was against Galway in the FBD. Early in the 2nd half we led by 11 points, only to allow Galway score 3 goals before eventually scraping over the line. You might write this off as 'just the fbd' but the problem came up again and again and again throughout the season. The problem was never fully resolved and we paid a heavy price against Cork, the early warning signs were there. Contrast this with the Dubs yesterday, once they scored the 2nd goal they parked the bus and there was no way they were letting Mayo back into it.

Team selection- At the start of the year they selected a player in a key defensive position who just didn't have the physicality for it, the penny finally dropped 2 weeks ago. They stuck with another player in the half forward line for the entire league and 1st round of the Connacht Championship when it was clear to most that his skillset is not yet at the required level. Finally, they went with a 33 year old midfielder in the full forward line. While he played well at stages during the year, it ended in Croke Park the way it always has anytime it's been tried. He's just not a top level inter-county forward and that gets exposed on the biggest stage. I'm not trying to have a go at lads here and I appreciate the effort they put in but if we're to be serious contenders, you have be ruthless when it comes to selection. These 3 selection issues were clear to some of us at the start of the year and unfortunately we were proven right. The 5 lads in the management team are all serious coaches, it baffles me that they couldn't spot these things earlier.

Finally, whatever slim chance we had of landing the big one ended in the Gaelic grounds 2 weeks ago. As others have pointed out here, the eventual champions were always going to come from the 4 group winners.... for numerous reasons. Management clearly underappreciated the importance of that game v Cork. I actually couldn't believe it the night before the game when I heard Cillian was playing for Tubber in a club match. Aidan O Shea also admitting in an interview that he had no idea of the significance of his last minute free further highlights the lax approach taken by management to what was, essentially a do or die match.

Rant over, here's hoping for an improved 2024.

[Wildweasel74]

Yip, u been playing Tyrone / Derry in games to get to a final.

[restorepride]

Yip, u been playing Tyrone / Derry in games to get to a final.

Derry would love to be playing Maigh Eo in semi-final!!

[From the Bunker]

It's great that ''The Curse'' can no longer be used as a plausible excuse for results like today. Small mercies.

The bus driver might still be alive.

They were on the back of a trailer, doubt it was being towed by a bus! 

[From the Bunker]

Yip, u been playing Tyrone / Derry in games to get to a final.

Derry would love to be playing Maigh Eo in semi-final!!

As Seafoid would say - Derry would be like Kryptonite to this Mayo team.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/07/04/jim-mcguinness-mayo-are-where-dublin-were-in-2014-and-its-time-to-face-the-hard-facts/

Jim McGuinness: Mayo are where Dublin were in 2014 and it's time to face the hard facts
Mayo's tactical approach has to change if they are to have any chance of All-Ireland glory


Jim McGuinness
Tue Jul 4 2023 - 05:00

There is nothing like a defeat to sharpen the mind.

Dublin found themselves at a crossroads last year following their All-Ireland semi-final loss to Kerry.

It left them with plenty to ponder during the off-season. It was a big moment for Dessie Farrell and his team because for me it seemed the choice was, 'Do we want to allow this young vibrant Kerry team to become a runaway train or do we in fact double down and fight to regain our rightful place at the top table?'

Sunday's win over Mayo felt like the coming together of the manager's vision, which had been cultivated in those weeks after losing in 2022.

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Mayo people will put up with a lot but they won't accept meek surrender
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Last winter, Farrell didn't opt to go with youth but rather he focused on those who had previously brought great success to the county. He retained the talent already in the squad and had conversations with the likes of Stephen Cluxton, Jack McCaffrey and Paul Mannion. He brought in Pat Gilroy, too.

The last piece of the jigsaw was to see if players like Cormac Costello, Seán Bugler, Colm Basquel and Eoin Murchan could step up another level. All in all, Farrell got significant business done over the winter and Sunday's victory felt like a product of that work.



The language and imagery ahead of Sunday's quarter-final between Dublin and Mayo was more akin to a boxing match than a football match – two heavyweights primed for battle again.

In an ESPN article about the trilogy between Ali and Frazier, Mike Sielsky wrote: "In the ring, Joe Frazier was a bull who didn't need a red cape. Provocation or prodding wasn't necessary for him to come charging after the man in front of him, his head down, his fists acting as sharp horns and inflicting similar damage.

"It was that relentlessness – the near-total abandonment of duck-and-cover, the philosophy that one must absorb punishment before one can properly distribute it – that defined Frazier's boxing career and has defined his life."

That quote kind of sums up the rivalry between Mayo and Dublin. Frazier's approach to Ali in their three fights could easily be used to mirror Mayo-Dublin battles over the last decade. And it's a narrative both teams are happy to go along with, I feel.

Very often you'll hear the Dubs saying, 'We know what's coming with Mayo, it's going to be a battle, they never give up, it always goes down to the wire.'


Dublin's Cormac Costello sets up Colm Basquel to score a goal during the All-Ireland quarter-final against Mayo. Photograph: John McVitty/Inpho
And at half-time on Sunday that narrative remained in play. Mayo, with 55 per cent possession, probably had the better of the first half. They led 0-8 to 1-3 after 25 minutes but still found themselves a point down at half-time, 1-6 to 0-8.


Why, despite the stats showing a lot of positives for Mayo, were they one adrift at the break? For me the answer is quite simple – the rules of engagement were skewed.

They were skewed largely because of Mayo's tactical approach – not that you will hear many Dubs shouting that out loudly, because Dublin don't want the cat to be let out of the bag.

You have take a step back a little to understand this. Dublin in 2013 were what Mayo are trying to be now, a swashbuckling team that loved to kick the ball and were absolutely man-to-man at the back.

But what happened in the 2014 semi-final made Dublin rethink. In Donegal, we knew from what Dublin were saying back then that they were absolutely wedded to that style of play, it was their identity and it was how they believed in playing.

And I believe Mayo are now in that same boat. The difference is Dublin adapted, in 2015 they went with a sweeper and they won the next six All-Irelands.

[ Five things we learned this GAA weekend ]

Kerry have done the same, there was a lengthy segment of analysis on television at the weekend about how well Kerry are defending – they are making defending sexy now!


Since the 2013 All-Ireland final, Dublin and Mayo have met 10 times in the championship – with Mayo winning just one of those encounters, while there were a couple of draws too. Across those series of matches Dublin scored 18 goals while Mayo scored six. Mayo have not scored a goal in any of their last three championship meetings with Dublin.

Dublin realise, because of Mayo's approach, the game is rigged in their favour. People talk about heavyweight bouts and rolling with the punches, but the fact is Dublin understand that over the course of 70 minutes against Mayo goalscoring opportunities are going to appear.

Mayo played well in the first half on Sunday but then David Byrne kicked a very simple ball inside to where two Mayo defenders and two Dublin forwards were isolated in one v one matchup scenarios. It ended with Basquel scoring a goal.

Immediately after the break, in what was a critical stage of the game, John Small gave the ball to Basquel and the Ballyboden player was able to take possession down the right flank in a one v one situation, cut inside and kick the ball over the bar. He was literally left one v one for 12 seconds, it must have felt like all his birthdays had come at once. It was a similar situation for Dublin's second goal. In these key moments, Mayo had no cover.


Dublin's Jack McCaffrey in action against Mayo in the All-Ireland quarter-final. Photograph: John McVitty/Inpho
After 2014, Dublin put a system in place to take back control. Mayo haven't won an All-Ireland since 1951 yet they are sticking to this belief system, which has repeatedly shown to only take them so far.

The irony on Sunday was that while Mayo stuck to their guns the whole way through, by the 50th minute Dublin were no longer going with a plus one, instead they were defending with 12-13 bodies behind the ball in a zonal structure. They were saying, 'We are happy with what we have and we are going to hold that.'


Mayo were sticking to their principles, sticking to their man-to-man system, meanwhile McCaffrey was scuttling through the heart of their defence. It's all very noble what they are trying to do, but the reality is they are not good enough to play that way.

The proof is in the fact they have not yet got over the line. A rivalry should be competitive in terms of results. Frazier beats Ali, Ali beats Frazier. It can't be a rivalry when it's one-sided.

Another big question I feel needs to be answered is what happened to the tactics Mayo implemented during the National League when Conor Loftus was used as a sweeper.

After the league final, you were thinking: Mayo have Aidan O'Shea as a focal point up front, Tommy Conroy and Ryan O'Donoghue playing off him, the team has a brilliant athletic profile and crucially they now also have a defensive structure that will maybe stop the chaos. Perhaps it actually could be their year.

But on Sunday evening their dreams were in tatters again. No team has been successful since 2013 with the approach Mayo continue to implement. The reality is you can't go toe to toe with the best players in the country for 70 minutes, without any cover, and expect not to concede a goal.

For more than a decade now there has been huge potential in Mayo but that potential has never been fully realised. It has been realised to the extent where they have become a high-performing team consistently competing with the top sides in the country.


But there is a difference between that and being a winning team. Dublin understood the difference in 2014. And Kerry understood it last year when they did whatever they had to do to win the All-Ireland.

The latest annual postmortem has begun in Mayo. A bit like Dessie Farrell last year, they are at a crossroads now and decisions the management make during the off-season will determine if Mayo are to continue along the same endless road again in 2024.

[Rossfan]

In other words the Rhus' large management team fkd up

[BuzzCagney]

https://twitter.com/Ogie_Halfhand/status/1675819836771909632?t=M5WPtB1fI5texmgncjH0vQ&s=19

[full moon]

That's a fairly solid article and analysis from Jim McGuinness in some respects. Mind you if one of the only teams that still kick the ball and don't handpass and pack their defence has to change systems, I'm not sure the game as a spectacle is going in the right direction.

[giveballaghback]

Yip, u been playing Tyrone / Derry in games to get to a final.

Derry would love to be playing Maigh Eo in semi-final!!

As Seafoid would say - Derry would be like Kryptonite to this Mayo team.

So the trailer was driving itself, now things are starting to make sense 😂😂

[yellowcard]

In other words the Rhus' large management team fkd up

It sounds like that is what he is saying but by the same token you could have picked 29 other counties and equally held them culpable but only one team can win the All Ireland and it doesn't mean all of the rest are no good. Jimmy is a great man for writing newspaper articles saying what should have been done in hindsight. The reality is that he has been out of the intercounty game for almost a decade but although the game has moved on since, the spectacle has never really recovered.

The single biggest difference however is still the fact that Dublin and Kerry just happen to have better footballers than the rest. Jims Donegal side stole a march when it comes to introducing evolutionary tactics into the GAA but now every other team are almost clones of each other and the advantage to be had tactically has narrowed significantly.