On the twenty-eighth day of November....

Started by The Hill is Blue, November 28, 2007, 10:30:51 AM

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Donagh

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 12:46:51 PM
I have no way of knowing what was in their individual heads when they voted. But I don't know any sensible commentator who would disagree that the best (often the only) measure of support for a group is their performance at the polls. On that basis, there's no comparison between SF's support in 1918 (without any equivocation or pretence about their relationship with the IRA, btw) and that of Provisional SF during the troubles. And that's even allowing your suggestion that the test be confined to a subset of the population, which of course disenfranchises the rest of us.

That's grand Hardy, but you're missing one crucial fact, that 99% of the population had never heard of the IRA when they went to the polls in 1918, so obviously it cannot be used to as indicator as to the popular support for their campaign. All you have to do is read the memoirs of the protagonists to see what support they had at the time.

pintsofguinness

hardy, where you sitting to close to sammy g?
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

The Hill is Blue

In January 1919 Dáil Éireann, representing a clear majority of the Irish people, adopted a Declaration of Independence. That Declaration gave clear democratic legitimacy to the War of Independence.

Armed action in this country after that period has never had democratic legitimacy.

An interesting footnote: In the 1918 General Election when Sinn Féin swept the boards in most of the country, Belfast Falls returned Wee Joe Devlin (Nationalist) as their MP ahead of Éamon de Valera (Sinn Féin).
I remember Dublin City in the Rare Old Times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T7OaDDR7i8

scalder

The Declaration of Indepdance also ratified the Republic, stating;

"..we, the elected Representatives of the ancient Irish people in National Parliament assembled, do, in the name of the Irish nation, ratify the establishment of the Irish Republic and pledge ourselves and our people to make this declaration effective by every means at our command"

"We solemnly declare foreign government in Ireland to be an invasion of our national right which we will never tolerate, and we demand the evacuation of our country by the English Garrison."

When did this change?

Evil Genius

Quote from: scalder on November 29, 2007, 02:03:59 PM
The Declaration of Indepdance also ratified the Republic, stating;

"..we, the elected Representatives of the ancient Irish people in National Parliament assembled, do, in the name of the Irish nation, ratify the establishment of the Irish Republic and pledge ourselves and our people to make this declaration effective by every means at our command"

"We solemnly declare foreign government in Ireland to be an invasion of our national right which we will never tolerate, and we demand the evacuation of our country by the English Garrison."

When did this change?


Following the Good Friday Agreement, when the Dail recognised British Rule in NI, dropped their "demand" and agreed to amend the Constitution to make Irish Unity a mere aspiration.

Oh, and the Shinners in the North [sic] finally recognised and accepted Partition, by agreeing to participate in the (British administered) Government of Northern Ireland, located in the "English Garrison" at Stormont.

Eighty-odd years and some thousands of lives late, but "better late than never", as the saying goes.  :(
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Hardy

Donagh - nothing to add to HIB's post. Except that 99% of the population that went to the polls in 1918 might not have known the IRA as the IRA, but they were well aware of the then "armed wing of Republicanism". I'm sure a full 100% of them had, for instance, heard of the Easter Rising.

POG - if you want to debate with me, make a point and stop the childish catcalling.

Scalder - I suggest that the democratic vote of the 1921 Dáil that endorsed the treaty with the Brits formally ended the declared hostilities.

his holiness nb

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 29, 2007, 02:25:29 PM
Following the Good Friday Agreement, when the Dail recognised British Rule in NI, dropped their "demand" and agreed to amend the Constitution to make Irish Unity a mere aspiration.

Oh, and the Shinners in the North [sic] finally recognised and accepted Partition, by agreeing to participate in the (British administered) Government of Northern Ireland, located in the "English Garrison" at Stormont.

Eighty-odd years and some thousands of lives late, but "better late than never", as the saying goes.  :(

EG, you would almost convince someone that SF have given up their goals of a united ireland  :D :D :D
Ask me holy bollix

Donagh

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 02:29:05 PM
Donagh - nothing to add to HIB's post. Except that 99% of the population that went to the polls in 1918 might not have known the IRA as the IRA, but they were well aware of the then "armed wing of Republicanism". I'm sure a full 100% of them had, for instance, heard of the Easter Rising.

So what are you saying - that Dan Breen and his comrades had widespread popular support for the campaign they launched, that the Irish people who voted for SF in 1918 knew what was coming? On what do you base this and how do you explain both Breen and Barry's conflicting assertion that they did not have overwhelming support? Probably irrelevant anyway as there was not an election in of middle of that campaign so you cannot emphatically say one way or the other whether their support within the community came anywhere near that enjoyed by the 'bad' IRA '69 onwards or vice-versa.

Hardy

As I said, I have no way of knowing what individual voters were thinking. All I and you know are the documented facts. One of those is that the war of independence was waged by the democratically elected government of Ireland, which had a massive mandate from the people. Another fact (and, as as you remind me, there were several elections, North and South, throughout the period) is that Provisional SF had no mandate of any kind whatsoever for their "armed struggle", much less for their criminal activities. No matter how you squirm and waffle about pockets of support lending some sort of legitimacy to the provo campaign, them's the only documented facts.

his holiness nb

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 03:13:12 PM
As I said, I have no way of knowing what individual voters were thinking. All I and you know are the documented facts. One of those is that the war of independence was waged by the democratically elected government of Ireland, which had a massive mandate from the people. Another fact (and, as as you remind me, there were several elections, North and South, throughout the period) is that Provisional SF had no mandate of any kind whatsoever for their "armed struggle", much less for their criminal activities. No matter how you squirm and waffle about pockets of support lending some sort of legitimacy to the provo campaign, them's the only documented facts.

Hardy re you comments about the legions of pro provo propaganda type people. Seriously, where did you get that?
Ask me holy bollix

Hardy

Ah you know - I must have just imagined that any time the provos were criticised here there was a mass denunciation of the critic, mostly in the most crude, derogatory and uncouth way. I must have been dreaming about the slinging about of the standard provo vocabulary of abuse - "blueshirt", "West Brit", etc., at anyone who dared to question the balaclava brigade.

Interestingly, they seem to have changed tactics now and they only appear in ones and twos. There must have been an edict to stop making it so obvious.

Anyway, you said you could only count four. OK - there's you, Donagh - who else?  ;D

Donagh

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 03:13:12 PM
As I said, I have no way of knowing what individual voters were thinking. All I and you know are the documented facts. One of those is that the war of independence was waged by the democratically elected government of Ireland, which had a massive mandate from the people. Another fact (and, as as you remind me, there were several elections, North and South, throughout the period) is that Provisional SF had no mandate of any kind whatsoever for their "armed struggle", much less for their criminal activities. No matter how you squirm and waffle about pockets of support lending some sort of legitimacy to the provo campaign, them's the only documented facts.

You're obviously the one doing the waffling here Hardy, I have said nothing of the sort, but go and read Dan Breen's book and you'll learn all about this elusive "massive mandate from the people". Oh and take the chip of your shoulder it doesn't suit you.

Hardy

If you're happy to let that be your last word, I have nothing to add. Let the people decide this one too, including who is the bearer of the chip.

(Dubnut - I was only joking, in case you've taken the hump).

The Hill is Blue

Quote from: Donagh on November 29, 2007, 03:31:32 PM

You're obviously the one doing the waffling here Hardy, I have said nothing of the sort, but go and read Dan Breen's book and you'll learn all about this elusive "massive mandate from the people". Oh and take the chip of your shoulder it doesn't suit you.


As Hardy has pointed out there is no way of knowing what support the war had at any particular time during its course – and I guess that goes for all wars (you rarely have opinion polls during wars!). However (and this is a key point), the War of Independence had the backing of our democratically elected government. None of our later "wars" have had that backing.
I remember Dublin City in the Rare Old Times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T7OaDDR7i8

Donagh

Quote from: The Hill is Blue on November 29, 2007, 03:49:28 PM
As Hardy has pointed out there is no way of knowing what support the war had at any particular time during its course – and I guess that goes for all wars (you rarely have opinion polls during wars!). However (and this is a key point), the War of Independence had the backing of our democratically elected government. None of our later "wars" have had that backing.

See scalder's point. The First Dáil ratified the Republic as declared in 1916 which again had no democratic mandate, so don't give me your Blueshirt bollicks about legitimate wars and democratic mandates.