Poppy Watch

Started by Orior, November 04, 2010, 12:36:05 PM

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saffron sam2

#375
Quote from: ONeill on November 18, 2010, 11:54:38 PM
Those who are offended by a poppy choose to be so. I couldn't give a dicky if they were a green kite for the memory of Japanese miners.

People should be free to display, be it on them or otherwise, symbols of anything they believe in. This 'beating it up ye' argument only exists if you are a wee bit sensitive.

Fair point, but I think the main issue on this thread is that, in many cases, people aren't free to choose whether or not to wear a poppy and that the motives of those who choose not to are questioned.

Now, I know that the poppy is banned in the place where you work. However, if it was policy in your corganisation that each employee must wear the poppy from the launch of the appeal until Remembrance Sunday, how would you feel?

It is poppy fascism / nazism, not the poppy itself that is the main issue.
the breathing of the vanished lies in acres round my feet

Evil Genius

#376
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 19, 2010, 08:45:48 AM
I think the main issue on this thread is that, in many cases, people aren't free to choose whether or not to wear a poppy and that the motives of those who choose not to are questioned.
No doubt that is the main issue for you, but you are choosing only to see, or give full creedence to, one side of the debate.

You state that "in many cases" people aren't free not to wear a Poppy. How many cases can you point to? The only example I have yet heard is the BBC, yet I know for a fact that eg Mark Sidebottom appeared without one on at least one occasion during the recent Appeal period (I saw it myself).

As for questioning of the motives of people who don't wear one, can you point to any examples where people are being asked "Why aren't you wearing a Poppy?"

By contrast, I could point to examples where people do feel intimidated for wearing one, eg, at Quinn's Insurance in Enniskillen:

QUINN Insurance has defended their equality policies in the wake of criticism from a number of Protestant workers over the wearing of poppies.

Several employees have told this newspaper how they feel their life "wouldn't be worth living" if they wore a poppy into the Enniskillen office. However a spokesman for the firm stated it was acceptable for people wear emblems such as poppies at the appropriate time of year.
But one employee said, "You feel as if putting on a poppy is you putting on a sectarian badge. I have to take my poppy off before I go into work in case someone says anything to me -- I'm too scared to wear it," said one Protestant worker.
Another employee claimed he was advised to remove his poppy inside the building because "loads of people" would "take offence" to it.
"I think it's a sad world when you feel so uncomfortable about wearing a poppy that you take it off -- especially here in Enniskillen, especially after what happened in 1987. It's extremely important to remember the dead but if it's going to get you into trouble then it's not worth it," he said.
While another added: "I know things have been said to people in the past who have had one on. Things like: 'Why are you wearing that?' and 'That's offensive' and so on. There is a concern at the moment that wearing a poppy might hinder your career further down the line. I've been told that it wouldn't be beneficial wearing one so I don't and I hate myself for that," he said.
One employee talked about "much unease" in Quinn Insurance which he said is making all of the Protestants feel "very uncomfortable" at the moment.

http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2010/11/12/392550-poppies-divide-workforce-at-quinn-insurance/

Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 19, 2010, 08:45:48 AMNow, I know that the poppy is banned in the place where you work.
Do you think that is fair and reasonable? If so, why is it any more fair and reasonable to prevent people from wearing one than making them wear one?

In both cases, people are being made to behave against their will, over a matter which is not a matter of law, but one of freedom of personal expression.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 19, 2010, 08:45:48 AMHowever, if it was policy in your corganisation that each employee must wear the poppy from the launch of the appeal until Remembrance Sunday, how would you feel?
Speaking for myself, I would object to any such policy being imposed.

But be honest, that is a Straw Man argument, for with the possible exception of the BBC, there is no organisation anywhere in the UK which insists on its employees wearing a poppy.

Whereas there are examples, albeit isolated, where it is either offically banned or unofficially frowned upon.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 19, 2010, 08:45:48 AMIt is poppy fascism / nazism, not the poppy itself that is the main issue.
That is your opinion.

Imo, being forced to wear a Poppy is merely a symptom of the "disease", not the disease itself. That is, I might just as plausibly argue that the banning of the Poppy is the "main issue" (though I do not).

Rather, the main issue is/should be that of tolerance. On which point, I believe that people should be free to wear, or not wear, the Poppy entirely as they see fit. And whichever their choice, they should face neither censure nor preferment, either directly or indirectly.

"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Hardy

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 19, 2010, 01:32:06 PMNo doubt that is the main issue for you, but you are choosing only to see, or give full creedence to, one side of the debate.

I see what you're doing here - seeking to put Clearwater between yourself and Saffron Sam. Don't be surprised if there's a Revival of his argument, though.

Evil Genius

Quote from: Hardy on November 19, 2010, 02:08:10 PM
I see what you're doing here - seeking to put Clearwater between yourself and Saffron Sam. Don't be surprised if there's a Revival of his argument, though.
But do you see a bad moon arising? Trouble on the way, perhaps?
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Hardy

I'm sayin nuttin.

But don't go around tonight.

saffron sam2

I wish you would stop lookin' for a reason to pick fights with me.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 19, 2010, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 19, 2010, 08:45:48 AM
I think the main issue on this thread is that, in many cases, people aren't free to choose whether or not to wear a poppy and that the motives of those who choose not to are questioned.
No doubt that is the main issue for you, but you are choosing only to see, or give full creedence to, one side of the debate.

I accept that both sides of the argument have equal credence. However when the employer is someone like the BBC, then the profile of one side of debate is obviously increased. If the BBC banned the poppy, that would be as equally wrong as their current stance.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 19, 2010, 01:32:06 PM
You state that "in many cases" people aren't free not to wear a Poppy. How many cases can you point to? The only example I have yet heard is the BBC, yet I know for a fact that eg Mark Sidebottom appeared without one on at least one occasion during the recent Appeal period (I saw it myself).

It is also an issue in independent television companies, particularly in Britain, although over here UTV do not make it compulsory.

With regards to Mark Sidebotton, if you are referring to last Saturday evening's appearance (13th November), that fell outside the range of dates which the BBC issues as "guidelines" for wearing the poppy (24th Oct to 11th Nov).

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 19, 2010, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 19, 2010, 08:45:48 AMNow, I know that the poppy is banned in the place where you work.
Do you think that is fair and reasonable? If so, why is it any more fair and reasonable to prevent people from wearing one than making them wear one?

No, totally unfair and unreasonable. However, I am told these are only actually guidelines and just because ONeill hasn't actually seen anyone wearing a poppy, this doesn't mean they are banned.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 19, 2010, 01:32:06 PM
But be honest, that is a Straw Man argument, for with the possible exception of the BBC, there is no organisation anywhere in the UK which insists on its employees wearing a poppy.

Whereas there are examples, albeit isolated, where it is either offically banned or unofficially frowned upon.

I think it is fair to assume that no organisation will put either policy in writing (the BBC claims it the individual presenter's choice). I have also given  examples of organisations where such a "policy" exists. From where I'm looking the attempts to demonise those not wearing one, or force one to wear one far outweigh any demonisation of those who choose to wear one. I accept your opinion and experiences will differ.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 19, 2010, 01:32:06 PM
Rather, the main issue is/should be that of tolerance. On which point, I believe that people should be free to wear, or not wear, the Poppy entirely as they see fit. And whichever their choice, they should face neither censure nor preferment, either directly or indirectly.

Exactly, yet that is clearly beyond, for example, those who run the BBC. Someday that may happen, but unfortunately someday never comes.
the breathing of the vanished lies in acres round my feet

theskull1

Wouldn't it be great if everyone understood that people from different back grounds interpret/think of things differently

Off the top of my head, here are the different types of folk who I think wear a poppy

Those who wear the poppy as a mark of respect to those who died in WWI & WWII and don't wish them wearing a poppy to be interpreted wrongly. It's no big deal
Those who wear the poppy as a mark of respect to those who died in all miltary conflicts (including here and abroad) and don't wish them wearing a poppy to be interpreted wrongly. They understand there were wrongs on both sides in this conflict and beyond but wish to mark this period of remembrance.
Those who wear the poppy as a mark of respect to those who died in all miltary conflicts (including here and abroad) but also like the whole pissing on a lampost element of this form of remembrance
Those who wear the poppy to show everybody where their allegiance lies and don't give much thought to what it is really meant to represent.
Those who could take it or leave wearing a poppy but do so so as not to be ostricised for not doing so within their communities/places of emplyment.

The BBC and papers like to think and present that poppy wearing is all about the first two points listed, but certainly in this part of the world it's just not the complete truth.

Personally I couldn't give a toss as I refuse to go out of my way to get offended at these sort of things. Do the same and very soon you'll hardly notice them
It's a lot easier to sing karaoke than to sing opera

Milltown Row2

Cant believe it The young lad from One Direction and May Byrne singing in front of the British Army, will this ever end!!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

An Gaeilgoir

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 21, 2010, 08:31:12 PM
Cant believe it The young lad from One Direction and May Byrne singing in front of the British Army, will this ever end!!

is there anything of importance in your life, this upsets you???????? ::)

Milltown Row2

Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on November 21, 2010, 08:38:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 21, 2010, 08:31:12 PM
Cant believe it The young lad from One Direction and May Byrne singing in front of the British Army, will this ever end!!

is there anything of importance in your life, this upsets you???????? ::)

I'm taking the piss to the many posts that have went on beforehand An Gaeilgoir
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

deiseach

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 21, 2010, 08:31:12 PM
Cant believe it The young lad from One Direction and May Byrne singing in front of the British Army, will this ever end!!

I'm outraged too. Didn't they endure enough in Afghanistan?

An Gaeilgoir

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 21, 2010, 08:44:38 PM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on November 21, 2010, 08:38:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 21, 2010, 08:31:12 PM
Cant believe it The young lad from One Direction and May Byrne singing in front of the British Army, will this ever end!!

is there anything of importance in your life, this upsets you???????? ::)

I'm taking the piss to the many posts that have went on beforehand An Gaeilgoir

Missed that one, will go and stand in the corner now. :D

muppet

Quote from: deiseach on November 21, 2010, 08:55:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 21, 2010, 08:31:12 PM
Cant believe it The young lad from One Direction and May Byrne singing in front of the British Army, will this ever end!!

I'm outraged too. Didn't they endure enough in Afghanistan?

Very good.
MWWSI 2017

mylestheslasher

Even worse, the young Irish lad in 1 direction had to wear an England jersey and meet stephen gerrard.

thejuice

While I do my best to avoid X-Factor, much more offensive to the senses than the Poppy, I do feel Britain is turning much like the USA in its attempts to shift the focus of the masses.

Where the troops are now sacrosanct and their suffering has become a vehicle for propaganda for the illegal war. I find it strange that there seems to be no mention of the fact that they really shouldn't be in Afghanistan in the first place. Its always about these "poor brave soldiers", how does it get lost that their suffering is totally unnecessary as is, that of the people of Afghanistan.




Whatever about the horror inflicted on those involved in the war, the butchery carried out on David Bowies 'Heroes' was probably the most vile thing about the whole episode. Stop the X-Factors illegal war on music now.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016