Poppy Watch

[Applesisapples]

Well, it's the 25th October and I saw my first Poppies for sale today - bought one, too.

It was in the Chemists. An Asian-owned Chemists. In England. I'm disappointed that NI got beaten to it - must do better next year, if we're to keep Nationalists feeling intimidated and oppressed.

And if I'm honest, I'm feeling a wee bit disappointed that my gesture in wearing one isn't going to achieve the maximum effect.

Fortunately I'm due back in NI at the weekend, so I'll make sure and wear mine prominently, so as to be able to "force it down peoples throat" [sic] properly.

Faugh a Ballagh! 

Nice to see a unionist embrace the Irish Language

I have no objections whatever to the speaking of Irish, only to the politicisation of the language by you-know-who. In fact if anything, I am all for the widening of the country's linguistic and cultural knowledge, as were eg my many Unionist/Protestant forebears who played such a vital role in the retention and revival of the language in the 19th Century etc.

... although the correct spelling is Fág an Bealach I believe.

It would only be "correct" if we were debating in Irish.

"Faugh a Ballagh" is the anglicised version; more pertinently to this thread, it is also the regimental motto of the Royal Irish Regiment. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20923094@N04/3040243437/

Ahh I see a makey uppy language a bit like Ulster Scots so that the boys don't have to dirty their tongues. It also features on loads of Loyalist flags on lamp posts.

So English is a "makey uppy language", is it?

I suppose you'll be telling me next that Irish doesn't contain its own Gaelicised(?) version of words taken from other languages, too...

Amadán

This is not english but a made up version of an Irish phrase.

[Evil Genius]

So English is a "makey uppy language", is it?

Actually, yes, English is a makey uppy language. It borrows from all historical languages which is why it makes it pretty powerful in a colonial kinda way. The river Usk in Britain is essentially the same as the Irish and Scots gaelic word 'uisce'. All language is derived to an extent except that god awful dialect called Ulster Scots which is just people from North Antrim being drunk.

If I was being kind, I'd call your RIR lads 'hooligans' (from the Irish family name Ó hUallacháin, anglicised as O'Houlihan) being one who takes part in rowdy behaviour and vandalism. The differentiation between them and their brothers in the UDA is phoney (old english fawney derived from the Irish for ring - fainne). Fecking Tories (tóraí originally an irish outlaw adopted to describe confederates or royalists with arms).

But yes, all languages borrow from each other to a certain extent. Some more than others.

In that sense, all  languages are "makey uppy", including Irish, since all have been made up by the people who spoke them, some more recently than others, and some drawing on less homogeneous sources than other.

However, Apples used "makey uppy" in the sense of false, inauthentic or contrived etc. Now if you claim that "Ulster Scots" is just such a language [sic], then you'll get little argument from me.

But if you or he tries to claim that my use of "Faugh a Ballagh" in the context of this debate was similarly "makey uppy", then I am happy to cite 'Hardstation' in my support, since I fancy he is as expert on such matters as any of us.

[sheamy]

So English is a "makey uppy language", is it?

Actually, yes, English is a makey uppy language. It borrows from all historical languages which is why it makes it pretty powerful in a colonial kinda way. The river Usk in Britain is essentially the same as the Irish and Scots gaelic word 'uisce'. All language is derived to an extent except that god awful dialect called Ulster Scots which is just people from North Antrim being drunk.

If I was being kind, I'd call your RIR lads 'hooligans' (from the Irish family name Ó hUallacháin, anglicised as O'Houlihan) being one who takes part in rowdy behaviour and vandalism. The differentiation between them and their brothers in the UDA is phoney (old english fawney derived from the Irish for ring - fainne). Fecking Tories (tóraí originally an irish outlaw adopted to describe confederates or royalists with arms).

But yes, all languages borrow from each other to a certain extent. Some more than others.

In that sense, all  languages are "makey uppy", including Irish, since all have been made up by the people who spoke them, some more recently than others, and some drawing on less homogeneous sources than other.

However, Apples used "makey uppy" in the sense of false, inauthentic or contrived etc. Now if you claim that "Ulster Scots" is just such a language [sic], then you'll get little argument from me.

But if you or he tries to claim that my use of "Faugh a Ballagh" in the context of this debate was similarly "makey uppy", then I am happy to cite 'Hardstation' in my support, since I fancy he is as expert on such matters as any of us.

I don't disagree with any of that

[sheamy]

In what context did the RIR use "Faugh a Ballagh"? Was it in reference to the regular saturation of an area by troops, and then immediate pull out just before loyalist gunmen struck?

[Applesisapples]

So English is a "makey uppy language", is it?

Actually, yes, English is a makey uppy language. It borrows from all historical languages which is why it makes it pretty powerful in a colonial kinda way. The river Usk in Britain is essentially the same as the Irish and Scots gaelic word 'uisce'. All language is derived to an extent except that god awful dialect called Ulster Scots which is just people from North Antrim being drunk.

If I was being kind, I'd call your RIR lads 'hooligans' (from the Irish family name Ó hUallacháin, anglicised as O'Houlihan) being one who takes part in rowdy behaviour and vandalism. The differentiation between them and their brothers in the UDA is phoney (old english fawney derived from the Irish for ring - fainne). Fecking Tories (tóraí originally an irish outlaw adopted to describe confederates or royalists with arms).

But yes, all languages borrow from each other to a certain extent. Some more than others.

In that sense, all  languages are "makey uppy", including Irish, since all have been made up by the people who spoke them, some more recently than others, and some drawing on less homogeneous sources than other.

However, Apples used "makey uppy" in the sense of false, inauthentic or contrived etc. Now if you claim that "Ulster Scots" is just such a language [sic], then you'll get little argument from me.

But if you or he tries to claim that my use of "Faugh a Ballagh" in the context of this debate was similarly "makey uppy", then I am happy to cite 'Hardstation' in my support, since I fancy he is as expert on such matters as any of us.

The point I am making is that if this is a genuine attempt to use Irish to represent the Irish origins of the regiment then why not use the correct spelling. Having said that most of the UDR/RIR soldiers who stopped me during the troubles found the English language a challenge, never mind expecting them to learn Irish

[Evil Genius]

The point I am making is that if this is a genuine attempt to use Irish to represent the Irish origins of the regiment then why not use the correct spelling.

This is a thread about the wearing of the Poppy.

In that context, I chose to quote the regimental motto of a famous Irish regiment. I quoted it exactly as they spell it, which is an anglicisation of what was originally an Irish-language phrase.

I guess I might have used the original* Irish spelling, but seeing as this debate is in English, I consider it much more appropariate to use the commonly accepted (English) spelling in use today.

And in any case, if Hardstation considers that my usage was at least not "incorrect", then I am obviously happy to defer to his judgement. You might be advised to do the same...   


* - By the way, was there a standardised system of spelling for Irish in 1811 (when the phrase was first used in the Battle of Barossa)? Does anyone know how Sgt. Masterson would have spelt it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faugh_A_Ballagh

[Hardy]

in 1811 ... the phrase was first used

I hardly think so.

[Niall Quinn]

in 1811 ... the phrase was first used

I hardly think so.

And I, Niall Quinn, concur.

[Evil Genius]

in 1811 ... the phrase was first used

I hardly think so.

OK, I shall indulge your pedantry.

"In 1798 the phrase was adopted by the 87th (Princess of Wales's Irish) Regiment of Foot as its Regimental Motto, becoming especially famous following an engagement by the 2nd Battalion in the Battle of Barossa in 1811. It was subsequently retained by several other Irish Regiments of the British Army until the present day, it being the motto of the Royal Irish Regiment"

Happy now? For if you are, perhaps you could tell me (Apples, actually) whether there was any official, standardised way of spelling in Irish in 1798?

P.S. Could you tell me which of the following is correct spelling in today's Irish, "Fág an Bealach" or "Fág a' Bealach"?

[Hardy]

That's better. Don't disparage pedantry - we wouldn't be here on the internet without it.

Fág an bealach is how it's spelled today.

[Farrandeelin]

in 1811 ... the phrase was first used

I hardly think so.

OK, I shall indulge your pedantry.

"In 1798 the phrase was adopted by the 87th (Princess of Wales's Irish) Regiment of Foot as its Regimental Motto, becoming especially famous following an engagement by the 2nd Battalion in the Battle of Barossa in 1811. It was subsequently retained by several other Irish Regiments of the British Army until the present day, it being the motto of the Royal Irish Regiment"

Happy now? For if you are, perhaps you could tell me (Apples, actually) whether there was any official, standardised way of spelling in Irish in 1798?

P.S. Could you tell me which of the following is correct spelling in today's Irish, "Fág an Bealach" or "Fág a' Bealach"?

Fág an Bealach, strictly speaking but it would take a complete t**t to pull you on that. I actually prefer the a' rather than the an.

There wouldn't have been an official, standardised way of spelling back then, I don't think.

Applesisapples, why not go up to Carey Faughs and tell them that they have it wrong? Just to point out again, btw, you have the wrong Irish spelling of Armagh on your profile.

True hardstation, it's akin to Béal a' Mhuirthead/an Mhuirthead, Caislean an Bharraigh/ Caisleán a' Bharraigh.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Saw one today on a person I was working with. Tried my best not to stare at the thing like it was a dingo that ate my baby. I have to say I really hate the things.

[Rossfan]

Jack o' clubs or jack of clubs.
There's official spelling and there's spelling the way it's said.
Of course there was a standardised spelling of Irish from the time we became Christianised ( 5th Century ) till we were enslaved and impoverished in the 17th ( by the forebears of the EGs of this world no doubt ).
There seemed to be a kind of stage Irishy way of phonetic English spelling of Irish words in the 19th Century e.g Graw machree , faugh a ballagh , asthoreen , etc which thankfully was ended when that great (Prod) Rosman brought our ancient language back to being a written language again.
As usual a Ros man to the rescue of Ireland in her hour of need.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

thankfully was ended when that great (Prod) Rosman brought our ancient language back to being a written language again.
As usual a Ros man to the rescue of Ireland in her hour of need.

Who was from just across the border from Ballaghadereen in County Mayo, in Frenchpark, County Roscommon.     

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Jack o' clubs or jack of clubs.
There's official spelling and there's spelling the way it's said.
Of course there was a standardised spelling of Irish from the time we became Christianised ( 5th Century ) till we were enslaved and impoverished in the 17th ( by the forebears of the EGs of this world no doubt ).
There seemed to be a kind of stage Irishy way of phonetic English spelling of Irish words in the 19th Century e.g Graw machree , faugh a ballagh , asthoreen , etc which thankfully was ended when that great (Prod) Rosman brought our ancient language back to being a written language again.
As usual a Ros man to the rescue of Ireland in her hour of need.

Really??

O'Really