Poll
Question:
Messi or Ronaldo - Who's best
Option 1: Lionel Messi
Option 2: Cristiano Ronaldo
Quick vote to see who people think is best. (Trying to settle an argument at work more than anything else)
And how will a poll on here settle anything?
How do you weigh this?
It's like GOAT: Maradona or Pele?
Quote from: J70 on March 14, 2019, 11:51:03 AM
How do you weigh this?
It's like GOAT: Maradona or Pele?
Neither. Messi.
Ronaldo for me.
Reasons, Messi use of HGH as a boy-young adult/Lack of International Win unlike Ronaldo/Messi stayed at Barca - Ronaldo moved in various leagues.
None really completely compelling, but just my own opinion on it.
Both lose points for me on refusing to attend the Balon D'or when Modric won and they knew they wouldn't get recognition.
We are blessed to have been witness to two players of this level in our lifetimes however.
Totally different players, same results though (goal count) their styles are not the same so hard to separate as people will prefer their own
A pointless exercise.
Just enjoy the 2 of them, cause there'll be some hole when they're gone... Nobody else currently comes close
Two phenomenal players Ronaldo's performance the other night was outstanding he had no right to score that first goal but sheer will got his head to it.
Messi will always be the best for me. Ronaldo's antics from when he was younger and the fact he's such a diva round the place does my head in. . . plus he played for the most horrible club in the world and I've had one cheer himself up after the weekends humiliation by telling me "Ronnie is the best player in the world Ronnie is a red!"
Big Ronnie for me. Always felt Messi was a bit of a one trick pony.
Quote from: Boycey on March 14, 2019, 11:56:30 AM
A pointless exercise.
Just enjoy the 2 of them, cause there'll be some hole when they're gone... Nobody else currently comes close
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Zx1T19EDpOVqbwP6KV/giphy.gif)
I think they are the best two we've seen so far and it's not that close to third. Who's better is up to personal preference, don't think there is a definitive answer.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
Big Ronnie for me. Always felt Messi was a bit of a one trick pony.
The only discernible difference in the 2 players is the fact Messi is no great header of the ball . . . his passing is far superior to Ronaldo's in that he actually passes the ball!
Quote from: screenexile on March 14, 2019, 12:00:42 PM
Quote from: Boycey on March 14, 2019, 11:56:30 AM
A pointless exercise.
Just enjoy the 2 of them, cause there'll be some hole when they're gone... Nobody else currently comes close
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Zx1T19EDpOVqbwP6KV/giphy.gif)
Good Lord....have you not seen his record this year v 'The Big Clubs'?
Not something you could ever accuse Messi/Ronaldo of....no shows.
I'm only messing!!!
Quote from: screenexile on March 14, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
Big Ronnie for me. Always felt Messi was a bit of a one trick pony.
The only discernible difference in the 2 players is the fact Messi is no great header of the ball . . . his passing is far superior to Ronaldo's in that he actually passes the ball!
I just like knowing Ronaldo could do something spectacular to win a game. Good in the air, a rocket of a free kick, back heel, overhead kick, a strong solo run Yes he can be a petulant child, but I'd much prefer to watch him than Messi. Messi is one dimensional and even though he's very good at what he does, he doesn't interest me like big Ronnie.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on March 14, 2019, 11:52:11 AM
We are blessed to have been witness to two players of this level in our lifetimes however.
We are, two incredibly gifted footballers. Their work ethic is unbelievable and even though both are in their 30s now that desire to win is as good as ever.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 01:59:58 PM
Quote from: screenexile on March 14, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
Big Ronnie for me. Always felt Messi was a bit of a one trick pony.
The only discernible difference in the 2 players is the fact Messi is no great header of the ball . . . his passing is far superior to Ronaldo's in that he actually passes the ball!
I just like knowing Ronaldo could do something spectacular to win a game. Good in the air, a rocket of a free kick, back heel, overhead kick, a strong solo run Yes he can be a petulant child, but I'd much prefer to watch him than Messi. Messi is one dimensional and even though he's very good at what he does, he doesn't interest me like big Ronnie.
Could you explain in what way Mess is one dimensional?
"Messi is one dimensional"
Some people are just willfully stupid.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 14, 2019, 02:29:56 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 01:59:58 PM
Quote from: screenexile on March 14, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
Big Ronnie for me. Always felt Messi was a bit of a one trick pony.
The only discernible difference in the 2 players is the fact Messi is no great header of the ball . . . his passing is far superior to Ronaldo's in that he actually passes the ball!
I just like knowing Ronaldo could do something spectacular to win a game. Good in the air, a rocket of a free kick, back heel, overhead kick, a strong solo run Yes he can be a petulant child, but I'd much prefer to watch him than Messi. Messi is one dimensional and even though he's very good at what he does, he doesn't interest me like big Ronnie.
Could you explain in what way Mess is one dimensional?
I already did.
I've had a look and all I can see is you saying that he's a one-trick pony which isn't an explanation.
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Messi with his 7th free kick of the season last night
Quote from: toby47 on April 03, 2019, 08:46:01 AM
Messi with his 7th free kick of the season last night
What a free kick too. Absolutely brilliant game.
Quote from: lurganblue on March 14, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Exactly,
I have yet to meet a non united /real supporter who has Ronaldo above Messi.
Ronaldo probably the greatest ever goalscorer, but the greatest ever player is Messi by a distance(IMHO)
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 03, 2019, 10:37:23 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on March 14, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Exactly,
I have yet to meet a non united /real supporter who has Ronaldo above Messi.
Ronaldo probably the greatest ever goalscorer, but the greatest ever player is Messi by a distance(IMHO)
Pele scored more than 750 goals.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 03, 2019, 10:37:23 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on March 14, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Exactly,
I have yet to meet a non united /real supporter who has Ronaldo above Messi.
Ronaldo probably the greatest ever goalscorer, but the greatest ever player is Messi by a distance(IMHO)
Messi is a better goalscorer too though.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 03, 2019, 10:37:23 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on March 14, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Exactly,
I have yet to meet a non united /real supporter who has Ronaldo above Messi.
Ronaldo probably the greatest ever goalscorer, but the greatest ever player is Messi by a distance(IMHO)
Ah they're both alright but they're not exactly Maradona are they?
People who bring Man Utd into arguments like this are only reinforcing their own prejudices.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 03, 2019, 11:31:23 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 03, 2019, 10:37:23 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on March 14, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Exactly,
I have yet to meet a non united /real supporter who has Ronaldo above Messi.
Ronaldo probably the greatest ever goalscorer, but the greatest ever player is Messi by a distance(IMHO)
Messi is a better goalscorer too though.
Messi overtook Ronaldo last night for goals scored.
Im a United fan but it would be Messi all day long. Better all round player and better goalscorer.
Quote from: Boycey on April 03, 2019, 11:35:48 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 03, 2019, 10:37:23 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on March 14, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
These debates usually turn into who's a Utd supporter and who isnt.
Exactly,
I have yet to meet a non united /real supporter who has Ronaldo above Messi.
Ronaldo probably the greatest ever goalscorer, but the greatest ever player is Messi by a distance(IMHO)
Ah they're both alright but they're not exactly Maradona are they?
People who bring Man Utd into arguments like this are only reinforcing their own prejudices.
Don't think we'd ever have heard of Messi if he was around in the 80's. Or the 60's like Best. He'd have been kicked off the pitch. Impossible to judge these things. Even two players like Ronaldo and Messi from the same era. Ronaldo has done it in different countries and with a far inferior national team. I'd argue he has won his European Cups with worse teams than Messi has played on. Messi is so easy on the eye though. It's how you weight these things.
One of my mates put it perfectly I thought. One is the best traditional type footballer, skillful, low centre of gravity, ball on string etc. The other is the best modern type of football, supremely athletic, strong, quick etc. Choosing between the two is a choice between traditional and modern football. A great dichotomy to get to watch.
All that said I still think Xavi in his prime was as good as Messi but I accept I can't back that up but I really loved Xavi and how he changed the game.
Paolo Maldini wouldn't have give either of them a kick of the ball.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 03, 2019, 04:54:03 PM
One of my mates put it perfectly I thought. One is the best traditional type footballer, skillful, low centre of gravity, ball on string etc. The other is the best modern type of football, supremely athletic, strong, quick etc. Choosing between the two is a choice between traditional and modern football. A great dichotomy to get to watch.
All that said I still think Xavi in his prime was as good as Messi but I accept I can't back that up but I really loved Xavi and how he changed the game.
No offense but that's nonsense. If anything it's the reverse. Strength, power etc is far more associated with "traditional" football. Given your reference to ball-on-a-string footballers with a low centre of gravity as traditional footballers and then separate reference to Xavi, you may well recall the laughter in lots of the UK media when Xavi was nominated for the Ballon d'Or. Him, Iniesta, Messi etc weren't supposed to succeed. The reason they did was because the football they and Guardiola were playing was so different to anything before it.
Trying to pigeonhole either of them as modern or traditional is a futile exercise.
Messi shades it, I think.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 03, 2019, 04:54:03 PM
One of my mates put it perfectly I thought. One is the best traditional type footballer, skillful, low centre of gravity, ball on string etc. The other is the best modern type of football, supremely athletic, strong, quick etc. Choosing between the two is a choice between traditional and modern football. A great dichotomy to get to watch.
All that said I still think Xavi in his prime was as good as Messi but I accept I can't back that up but I really loved Xavi and how he changed the game.
Funny I've always found it was Iniesta that made Xavi look half decent.
My opinion, and that's all it is, is that Messi is a better footballer. Ronaldo is all pace and power, skillful too obviously, but Messi is the better footballer
Messi, night and day. Ronaldo, terrific finisher and goal scorer, but not a playmaker in the vein of Messi, who can do both. How many of his goals did he originate himself from outside the box?
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 05, 2019, 09:44:18 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 03, 2019, 04:54:03 PM
One of my mates put it perfectly I thought. One is the best traditional type footballer, skillful, low centre of gravity, ball on string etc. The other is the best modern type of football, supremely athletic, strong, quick etc. Choosing between the two is a choice between traditional and modern football. A great dichotomy to get to watch.
All that said I still think Xavi in his prime was as good as Messi but I accept I can't back that up but I really loved Xavi and how he changed the game.
Funny I've always found it was Iniesta that made Xavi look half decent.
Oh no give me Xavi any day. Changed the way the game was played. Before the last World Cup only 6 players had completed 100+ passes in a World Cup game. He had done it four times. Against Levante in his final season he was taken off after 67 minutes. Despite that he had more touches, more pass attempts, more successful passes and more time in possession than the entire Levante team had in 90 minutes. Granted he needed a good team around him and he always had that but for me he made them much better.
Quote from: hardstation on April 05, 2019, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: gallsman on April 05, 2019, 06:33:29 AM
Trying to pigeonhole either of them as modern or traditional is a futile exercise.
It could be said that the entire thread is tbf.
Most threads on here are.
Quote from: hardstation on April 05, 2019, 11:34:22 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 05, 2019, 11:29:02 PM
Quote from: hardstation on April 05, 2019, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: gallsman on April 05, 2019, 06:33:29 AM
Trying to pigeonhole either of them as modern or traditional is a futile exercise.
It could be said that the entire thread is tbf.
Most threads on here are.
I disagree with that. Most are open ended.
This one is pick a side, without a tool to measure them.
Plenty of tools round these parts!
Ronaldo is an outstanding player, in any other generation he would be easily regarded as the best in the world but Messi is a freak of nature, a player that it seems impossible to think that there could ever be a better one. Personally, I don't even understand how there is a debate on this question.
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2019, 09:53:26 AM
Ronaldo is an outstanding player, in any other generation he would be easily regarded as the best in the world but Messi is a freak of nature, a player that it seems impossible to think that there could ever be a better one. Personally, I don't even understand how there is a debate on this question.
See you're mixing your opinion up with fact...
Quote from: Boycey on April 06, 2019, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2019, 09:53:26 AM
Ronaldo is an outstanding player, in any other generation he would be easily regarded as the best in the world but Messi is a freak of nature, a player that it seems impossible to think that there could ever be a better one. Personally, I don't even understand how there is a debate on this question.
See you're mixing your opinion up with fact...
I agree with Itchy. Yes it's my opinion but in my view I can't see how it's even a debate either. Messi is simply on a different level to anyone I have seen play
So it's impossible to think anyone else could ever be better?
Quote from: Boycey on April 06, 2019, 10:42:03 AM
So it's impossible to think anyone else could ever be better?
[/quote
If that's a question to me, no. The nature of sport is that playerrs generally improve over time as training, coaching etc keeps improving. What I'm saying is that messi is the best I have ever seen by a distance. In my opinion obviously
Quote from: Boycey on April 06, 2019, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2019, 09:53:26 AM
Ronaldo is an outstanding player, in any other generation he would be easily regarded as the best in the world but Messi is a freak of nature, a player that it seems impossible to think that there could ever be a better one. Personally, I don't even understand how there is a debate on this question.
See you're mixing your opinion up with fact...
Now why the need for this, it's only my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine.
Honest question - would Messi stand out if playing for Ballinamallard?
Quote from: ONeill on April 07, 2019, 01:48:58 PM
Honest question - would Messi stand out if playing for Ballinamallard?
Yes, he'd be the one that no one could get the ball off
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2019, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: Boycey on April 06, 2019, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Itchy on April 06, 2019, 09:53:26 AM
Ronaldo is an outstanding player, in any other generation he would be easily regarded as the best in the world but Messi is a freak of nature, a player that it seems impossible to think that there could ever be a better one. Personally, I don't even understand how there is a debate on this question.
See you're mixing your opinion up with fact...
Now why the need for this, it's only my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine.
Thinking Messi is the best ever is grand, I just thought your next line meant that no other opinions were valid.
Quote from: ONeill on April 07, 2019, 01:48:58 PM
Honest question - would Messi stand out if playing for Ballinamallard?
None of this ould soccer mullarkey. Line out with Fermanagh.
Forget those two. Gerry deulofeu is the main man.
Georgi Kinkladze Now there was a player!
Messi with 598th goal for Barcelona tonight and Cristiano Ronaldo scored his 600th club goal tonight.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 14, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
Big Ronnie for me. Always felt Messi was a bit of a one trick pony.
One trick?
The 2 of them wouldn't make Maradona
Some incredible and spectacular stuff tonight from the world's fifth best player ::)
Maradona couldnt lace Messi's boots.
Ah. obviously u at an age where u didn't see the great man in this prime. In an era where defenders could legally be cut u in two from behind. I couldn't see either of the 2 superstars of today take that punishment.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 01, 2019, 11:33:15 PM
Ah. obviously u at an age where u didn't see the great man in this prime. In an era where defenders could legally be cut u in two from behind. I couldn't see either of the 2 superstars of today take that punishment.
But if they were playing in that era then that would be the norm and something they would deal with like all footballers at that time did. Maradona was brilliant but Messi can do everything he could but has done it for longer and scored far more goals in the process.
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 07:58:01 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 01, 2019, 11:33:15 PM
Ah. obviously u at an age where u didn't see the great man in this prime. In an era where defenders could legally be cut u in two from behind. I couldn't see either of the 2 superstars of today take that punishment.
But if they were playing in that era then that would be the norm and something they would deal with like all footballers at that time did. Maradona was brilliant but Messi can do everything he could but has done it for longer and scored far more goals in the process.
Would loved to have seen Maradona in this era with all the protection he would have got, he'd have scored a lot more goals although his record for Barca & Napoli is still very impressive.
Just had a quick look and don't think anyone scored more than 20 league goals in Serie A whilst Maradona was in Italy and there was some great centre forwards about like Van Basten, Klinsman & Viali. I
Quote from: Sonny Joe on May 02, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
Messi hasn't and never will ever lead his country to a world cup. Maradona won the thing for the other ten players in the greatest stage of all.
They scored 3 in the 86 final and he didn't score, is that single handedly winning a WC?
Quote from: Kidder81 on May 02, 2019, 01:02:40 PM
Quote from: Sonny Joe on May 02, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
Messi hasn't and never will ever lead his country to a world cup. Maradona won the thing for the other ten players in the greatest stage of all.
They scored 3 in the 86 final and he didn't score, is that single handedly winning a WC?
Plus look at the honours list for each player. Messi has won more European Cups than Maradona won leagues.
Has anyone convinced anyone else to change their minds on one of these threads
Maradona for me and no amount of facts or stats will ever change that 8)
As said, last night wasn't anywhere near Messi's best game, yet he was still the talking point after it. Watching it, I had a questioning moment of clarity, is he better than Pele? Which suddenly meant to me that both were/are better than Maradona.
The case for Maradona is that he played in an era when attackers got much less protection from refs, he guided unfashionable Napoli to 2 unheard-of league titles and he inspired Argentina to the 1986 World Cup, (basically by scoring brilliant goals v England, who they probably would have beaten anyway, and Belgium, and laid on a sublime pass for Valdano's winner in the final). The case against is that he sniffed his talent away and, outside his Napoli stint, had a largely underwhelming club career. (BTW, watch out for the Senna-esque film on his life later this year.)
Messi has had an astonishing club career, scoring now 600 club goals, so many hattricks, so many of them brilliant. He has illuminated the Champions League season after season, like last night, providing the focal analysis once again after a match. No, he hasn't inspired his country as Maradona has; however, if Pekerman wasn't so defensive in 2006, and played him against Germany in the 1/4s, they would surely have won that tournament, being by far the best team there. So for me, no question, Messi light years ahead of Diego.
Quote from: Kidder81 on May 02, 2019, 01:02:40 PM
Quote from: Sonny Joe on May 02, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
Messi hasn't and never will ever lead his country to a world cup. Maradona won the thing for the other ten players in the greatest stage of all.
They scored 3 in the 86 final and he didn't score, is that single handedly winning a WC?
Have you seen the move and pass he executed for the winning goal in that final? The solo goals against England and Belgium? He had six goals and five assists in the tournament, all while being man-marked and targeted by the opposition, back in the days when they really could physically intimidate and abuse. He was head and shoulders the best player in the tournament, amidst a team not exactly flush with noted players. I think you'd be very hard-pushed to name another world cup so dominated and defined by a single player.
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
Quote from: J70 on May 02, 2019, 01:40:54 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on May 02, 2019, 01:02:40 PM
Quote from: Sonny Joe on May 02, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
Messi hasn't and never will ever lead his country to a world cup. Maradona won the thing for the other ten players in the greatest stage of all.
They scored 3 in the 86 final and he didn't score, is that single handedly winning a WC?
Have you seen the move and pass he executed for the winning goal in that final? The solo goals against England and Belgium? He had six goals and five assists in the tournament, all while being man-marked and targeted by the opposition, back in the days when they really could physically intimidate and abuse. He was head and shoulders the best player in the tournament, amidst a team not exactly flush with noted players. I think you'd be very hard-pushed to name another world cup so dominated and defined by a single player.
+1
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 02, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Di you have to quote that clampit?? ;D
Messi shades it for. Has been relentless for years up against the best defences money can buy. Elite European club football is where its at and he's top of the pile, and has been consistently for years
Messi
Pele / Maradonna
Ronaldo
McCourt
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 02, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 02, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.
I remember Ronaldo from Brazil very well. Used to love watching him play, so much so that I can resist referring to him as fat.
Bad injuries curtailed him though and despite his brilliance I can't see how anyone could actually consider him to be better than Messi.
Fat Ronaldo shouldn't even come into this debate.
Quote from: Kidder81 on May 02, 2019, 01:02:40 PM
Quote from: Sonny Joe on May 02, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
Messi hasn't and never will ever lead his country to a world cup. Maradona won the thing for the other ten players in the greatest stage of all.
They scored 3 in the 86 final and he didn't score, is that single handedly winning a WC?
I see what you did there ;)
Quote from: Franko on May 02, 2019, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on May 02, 2019, 01:02:40 PM
Quote from: Sonny Joe on May 02, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
Messi hasn't and never will ever lead his country to a world cup. Maradona won the thing for the other ten players in the greatest stage of all.
They scored 3 in the 86 final and he didn't score, is that single handedly winning a WC?
I see what you did there ;)
;D
Can't we just enjoy the fact that we are living in an age with the 2 best footballers of all time??
PS. Messi is the GOAT
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest player of all time and he terrified a generation of the best defenders of all time. Messi has by and large played in a weaker era and failed with Argentina.
Quote from: Angelo on May 02, 2019, 04:24:24 PM
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest player of all time and he terrified a generation of the best defenders of all time. Messi has by and large played in a weaker era and failed with Argentina.
Messi didn't fail with Argentina. The Argentian FA failed putting headers in charge of team and then Higuain couldn't finish his dinner.
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.
Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 02, 2019, 04:24:24 PM
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest player of all time and he terrified a generation of the best defenders of all time. Messi has by and large played in a weaker era and failed with Argentina.
Messi didn't fail with Argentina. The Argentian FA failed putting headers in charge of team and then Higuain couldn't finish his dinner.
The lame excuse is to always blame the manager, Messi was responsible for choosing one FFS. Higuain scored more important goals for Argentina in the latter stages of international football than Messi has.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Aye scoring two against Juve probably doesn't count alright.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Aye scoring two against Juve probably doesn't count alright.
Not that I'm offering an opinion one way or the other, but that's a strange way to try to counter a suggestion that Ronaldo hasn't done in it finals, given it was a quarter final.
Quote from: gallsman on May 02, 2019, 10:36:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I’d agree with this and for me that’s why I’d have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he’s needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Aye scoring two against Juve probably doesn’t count alright.
Not that I'm offering an opinion one way or the other, but that's a strange way to try to counter a suggestion that Ronaldo hasn't done in it finals, given it was a quarter final.
2017 final?
Scored 4 goals in 5 champions league finals.
Edit: 6 finals - forgot about 2009!
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 02, 2019, 10:36:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Aye scoring two against Juve probably doesn't count alright.
Not that I'm offering an opinion one way or the other, but that's a strange way to try to counter a suggestion that Ronaldo hasn't done in it finals, given it was a quarter final.
2017 final?
Scored 4 goals in 5 champions league finals.
Edit: 6 finals - forgot about 2009!
Well why didn't you say that before bringing up a quarter final against Juve? Would have made far more sense.
The only CL final of his four with Real that he deserves any credit for was 2017 against Juve. In 2014 he was a showboating twat banging in that last minute penalty when the game was long since over and he was anonymous for the entirety of it. 2016 he was brutal and scored the winning penalty. Last year he was brutal and huffed at Bale scoring
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
It's Superman though!!
Pie charts are the Aquaman of data visualization:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/pie-charts-are-the-worst-2013-6 (https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/pie-charts-are-the-worst-2013-6)
Quote from: gallsman on May 02, 2019, 11:20:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 02, 2019, 10:36:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Aye scoring two against Juve probably doesn't count alright.
Not that I'm offering an opinion one way or the other, but that's a strange way to try to counter a suggestion that Ronaldo hasn't done in it finals, given it was a quarter final.
2017 final?
Scored 4 goals in 5 champions league finals.
Edit: 6 finals - forgot about 2009!
Well why didn't you say that before bringing up a quarter final against Juve? Would have made far more sense.
The only CL final of his four with Real that he deserves any credit for was 2017 against Juve. In 2014 he was a showboating twat banging in that last minute penalty when the game was long since over and he was anonymous for the entirety of it. 2016 he was brutal and scored the winning penalty. Last year he was brutal and huffed at Bale scoring
What are you on about? mrdeeds said he doesn't perform in finals and I replied saying he scored 2 against Juve. You brought up a quarter final? :o Whether he deserves credit or not he still has the most goals in the knock out stages and finals in Champions League history.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 03, 2019, 09:08:40 AM
Quote from: gallsman on May 02, 2019, 11:20:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:38:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 02, 2019, 10:36:02 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 10:33:01 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 02, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on May 02, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
I'd agree with this and for me that's why I'd have Ronaldo edging it. Consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods. His scoring record in the knock out stages is just outrageous.
Ronaldo never really done it in a final though. Bale did for Madrid. Injured for Portugal.
Aye scoring two against Juve probably doesn't count alright.
Not that I'm offering an opinion one way or the other, but that's a strange way to try to counter a suggestion that Ronaldo hasn't done in it finals, given it was a quarter final.
2017 final?
Scored 4 goals in 5 champions league finals.
Edit: 6 finals - forgot about 2009!
Well why didn't you say that before bringing up a quarter final against Juve? Would have made far more sense.
The only CL final of his four with Real that he deserves any credit for was 2017 against Juve. In 2014 he was a showboating twat banging in that last minute penalty when the game was long since over and he was anonymous for the entirety of it. 2016 he was brutal and scored the winning penalty. Last year he was brutal and huffed at Bale scoring
What are you on about? mrdeeds said he doesn't perform in finals and I replied saying he scored 2 against Juve. You brought up a quarter final? :o Whether he deserves credit or not he still has the most goals in the knock out stages and finals in Champions League history.
So one final out of all he has played in he has performed. Didn't score crucial goals in others.
Quote from: mrdeeds on May 03, 2019, 10:34:45 AM
So one final out of all he has played in he has performed. Didn't score crucial goals in others.
2008 scored United's only goal. So there's two finals he's scored crucial goals. How many of Messi's/Maradona's/Pele's/Brazilian Ronaldo's goals have been scored after they've been 1 or 2 up? They not classed as crucial or performing in those games? As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, no one's mind has ever been changed by a thread like this so pointless exercise going back and forth on points.
My opinion is Ronaldo is a better all round package and has consistently performed against the big teams year on year and when he's needed has come up with the goods, so for me edges Messi.
Tomato/Tomatoe.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Agreed, think we should all agree that we had two freaks of nature in the one era
Quote from: illdecide on May 03, 2019, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Agreed, think we should all agree that we had two freaks of nature in the one era
I agree, Messi for me ;D ;D
Quote from: Angelo on May 02, 2019, 06:27:40 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.
Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.
The World Cup is the biggest stage but not the highest standard.
That Brazilian team that Ronaldo was on was crap alright. I don't think you could put anyone ahead of the Brazilian Ronaldo, he was the best I have saw when he was at his best. Messi carried Argentina to the final in 2014.
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 03, 2019, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 02, 2019, 06:27:40 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.
Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.
The World Cup is the biggest stage but not the highest standard.
That Brazilian team that Ronaldo was on was crap alright. I don't think you could put anyone ahead of the Brazilian Ronaldo, he was the best I have saw when he was at his best. Messi carried Argentina to the final in 2014.
How did Messi carry Argentina to the final in 2014?
They scored 2 goals in 450 minutes of knockout football and conceded none. It was very much a defensive effort for Argentina and it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were Argentina's outstanding players in 2014. Messi struggled badly to make an impact in the knockout stages.
The final completely passed him by.
Quote from: toby47 on May 03, 2019, 12:23:48 PM
Quote from: illdecide on May 03, 2019, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Agreed, think we should all agree that we had two freaks of nature in the one era
I agree, Messi for me ;D ;D
Messi is better when judged purely on his performances for Barcelona. Ronaldo is however more adaptable and if you put him in any team in the world he makes it very significantly better. He has been superb for united, real, juve and Portugal. Messi is a genius for barca but average enough with argentina.
Probaly easier for Ronaldo to make an impression at international level, as Portugal were very dependent on him, and seemed a united team. Argentina have and had plenty of star attacking players. Tevez didn't even make the World Cup Squad in 2014 after a brilliant season with Juventus.
The sub who scored the winning goal for Portugal in Euro 16 Eder, wouldn't have got near a Argentina Squad.
Quote from: rodney trotter on May 03, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Probaly easier for Ronaldo to make an impression at international level, as Portugal were very dependent on him, and seemed a united team. Argentina have and had plenty of star attacking players. Tevez didn't even make the World Cup Squad in 2014 after a brilliant season with Juventus.
The sub who scored the winning goal for Portugal in Euro 16 Eder, wouldn't have got near a Argentina Squad.
I'd take the opposite view of that. Messi has a better supporting cast so should have more freedom to impose himself on the game which he has failed to at international level.
He is Argentina's all time leading goal scorer. In the 3 Group games and the second round game in the 2014 World Cup he was named man of the match. He might not have performed as well in the final but neither did the supporting Cast
Quote from: lenny on May 03, 2019, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: toby47 on May 03, 2019, 12:23:48 PM
Quote from: illdecide on May 03, 2019, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Agreed, think we should all agree that we had two freaks of nature in the one era
I agree, Messi for me ;D ;D
Messi is better when judged purely on his performances for Barcelona. Ronaldo is however more adaptable and if you put him in any team in the world he makes it very significantly better. He has been superb for united, real, juve and Portugal. Messi is a genius for barca but average enough with argentina.
65 goals in 129 appearances for Argentina. I'd say that's better than average
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Iron man v Batman would be a better comparison. Two rich men in fancy suits with gadgets.
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 03, 2019, 07:00:39 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 03, 2019, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: toby47 on May 03, 2019, 12:23:48 PM
Quote from: illdecide on May 03, 2019, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 02, 2019, 11:43:12 PM
This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft
Agreed, think we should all agree that we had two freaks of nature in the one era
I agree, Messi for me ;D ;D
Messi is better when judged purely on his performances for Barcelona. Ronaldo is however more adaptable and if you put him in any team in the world he makes it very significantly better. He has been superb for united, real, juve and Portugal. Messi is a genius for barca but average enough with argentina.
65 goals in 129 appearances for Argentina. I'd say that's better than average
Not when it matters most.
His record at the business end of international football is below average.
Quote from: Angelo on May 03, 2019, 02:08:11 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 03, 2019, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 02, 2019, 06:27:40 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.
Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.
The World Cup is the biggest stage but not the highest standard.
That Brazilian team that Ronaldo was on was crap alright. I don't think you could put anyone ahead of the Brazilian Ronaldo, he was the best I have saw when he was at his best. Messi carried Argentina to the final in 2014.
How did Messi carry Argentina to the final in 2014?
They scored 2 goals in 450 minutes of knockout football and conceded none. It was very much a defensive effort for Argentina and it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were Argentina's outstanding players in 2014. Messi struggled badly to make an impact in the knockout stages.
The final completely passed him by.
By scoring 4 goals and winning the golden ball.
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 03, 2019, 09:03:23 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 03, 2019, 02:08:11 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 03, 2019, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 02, 2019, 06:27:40 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 02, 2019, 05:37:53 PM
Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.
Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.
Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.
The World Cup is the biggest stage but not the highest standard.
That Brazilian team that Ronaldo was on was crap alright. I don't think you could put anyone ahead of the Brazilian Ronaldo, he was the best I have saw when he was at his best. Messi carried Argentina to the final in 2014.
How did Messi carry Argentina to the final in 2014?
They scored 2 goals in 450 minutes of knockout football and conceded none. It was very much a defensive effort for Argentina and it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were Argentina's outstanding players in 2014. Messi struggled badly to make an impact in the knockout stages.
The final completely passed him by.
By scoring 4 goals and winning the golden ball.
He scored a couple of goals against Iran and Nigeria and then went missing in the knockout stages when they actually had to play some decent sides. Mascherano and Di Maria were the key men at the business end for Argentina.
Messi winning the golden ball award made an utter mockery of it. It was bad enough after Cannavaro was overlooked in 2006 but James Rodriguez was the best player on show by huge margin at the 2014 WC, Messi wasn't even top 20. He had 450 minutes of knockout football, he was Argentina's talisman and he produced one assist and his side scored 2 goals in that time. He failed to make an impression in those games, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the key men for Argentina then.
Messi has failed in being Argentina's talisman and when people tout him as the greatest to ever play and you see how ineffective he is with Argentina in the business end of international football, you have to seriously question that label. We know two Messis, the one with Barca and the one with Argentina and they are completely alien to each other.
The reason why Messi is not there with the all time greats for me is that he relies too much on all the right parameters around him, he needs players who align with his way of playing football, he needs a tactical system that evolves around him and when these aren't in place he seems to lack the character. Let's not forget he has came in under a whole load of criticism back in Argentina, even Maradona flipped with him after the Copa America a few years back.
It's fair to say he's the best in the world right now, you can argue with CR7 at the minute but that's a matter of opinion. I think it's currently a poor era for football. The BT commentator last night claimed Pique and Van Dijk are two of the best defenders in the world right now, they would have been nowhere near the calibre of defender that the Brazilian Ronaldo or Maradona would have played against in their peaks and would have played against with little to no protection from referees.
Messi probably has one more World Cup to try and put himself in the pantheon of the all time greats, if he fails there then he shouldn't be in the discussion.
Absolute nonsense. Messi is right up there in the discussion of the greatest of all time. I agree with an earlier post you made about ronaldo. Has he not been injured as much the discussion now would be about who is the second best ever
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 04, 2019, 09:49:36 AM
Absolute nonsense. Messi is right up there in the discussion of the greatest of all time. I agree with an earlier post you made about ronaldo. Has he not been injured as much the discussion now would be about who is the second best ever
Not until he does it at a world cup. He has gone to 4 now, the first one he gets a pass on as he was a teenager with little football played, the other three have been abject failures. We've seen many brilliant players over the years look a superstar, change club and then look a shadow of the player because they don't fit with the philosophy or style of football. Kaka, Henry,Shevchenko, Veron, Mendieta. Players who were at the top of their game in world football. What we know about Messi is that he is a supreme player with Barcelona and a good few levels below that outside of Barcelona.
If Messi moved to a club like Napoli or Arsenal, do you think they would win their domestic title or at least come very close to it the following season? Would he be able to perform to the levels he has for Barcelona in those environments? Questions we don't know the answer to but the only basis we have to judge Messi outside of Barcelona is Argentina and trying to say that Messi has been anything other than substandard for Argentina given his status in world football is being dishonest.
Barcelona like team players, they like guys who can join the play together, little passing triangles and give and goes. This is the philosophy that Guardiola installed, I think it's noticeable that players like Zlatan, Henry and Ronaldinho who all played with Messi at some point weren't able to really connect with him. They were individualists and they could not conform to being the assistants to Messi. Zlatan's book was very interesting, he actually started off his Barca career on fire but then Messi complained to Guardiola about where he was playing in it all and it all changed. You can say that Messi has proven that he is right to do that at Barcelona, I've no problem with that he has backed it up with Barca ten times over but the style of play and philosophy there has been every bit as important to Messi as Messi has been to Barcelona.
My point with Messi is that he needs the perfect ecological system to play at his best level, we've seen him out of that comfort zone and he's nowhere near the same player. To me, being able to adapt and adjust to what is around and still perform to the highest level is what separates the likes of Maradona and the Brazilian Ronaldo to the rest.
Messi is the Gooch of Association Football.
In the face of adversity and when the chips are down, he disappears.
Liverpool tonight, Roma last year.
PSG the year before that it was Neymar who dragged them from the abyss.
Did you see some of the passes he hit?
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:05:36 PM
Did you see some of the passes he hit?
So when the chips are down, the measure of a chap who is meant to be the greatest of all time is he hit a few nice passes?
He disappeared tonight when his team needed him, no leadership exactly like he does for Argentina, it's a reoccurring theme with him. Fantastic when everything is going well, gutless when the tide turns - there's a substantial trail of evidence now to support this.
Judge him under the parameters of a great and he fails when his team really need him.
He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much, that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.
Very quick to put that boot in there.
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:15:10 PM
He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much, that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.
Very quick to put that boot in there.
We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.
That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 02, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.
Messi confirms tonight that he shouldn't be mentioned in same breath as Maradona, Ronaldo or Fat Ronaldo. Not a great player.
Quote from: Angelo on May 07, 2019, 10:18:27 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:15:10 PM
He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much, that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.
Very quick to put that boot in there.
We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.
That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.
Maradona really delivered everytime too I suppose. Tonight changes nothing about Messi, still the GOAT.
Quote from: trailer on May 07, 2019, 10:19:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 02, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.
Messi confirms tonight that he shouldn't be mentioned in same breath as Maradona, Ronaldo or Fat Ronaldo. Not a great player.
Trailer confirms tonight that he does not a clue about football
Quote from: mouview on May 07, 2019, 10:27:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 07, 2019, 10:18:27 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:15:10 PM
He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much, that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.
Very quick to put that boot in there.
We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.
That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.
Maradona really delivered everytime too I suppose. Tonight changes nothing about Messi, still the GOAT.
He delivered in the face of adversity, time and time again.
Messi doesn't - when things are great - excellent. Nights like tonight, time and time again have passed him by. You look for leaders and he's not got that character.
Quote from: Angelo on May 07, 2019, 10:18:27 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:15:10 PM
He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much, that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.
Very quick to put that boot in there.
We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.
That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.
Angelo, you had me thinking that you might have a point about Messi with regards to his international record, something I didn't accept before.
However, you're letting yourself down big time here. Barcelona were abysmal tonight. Messi got on the ball on a number of occasions and drove forward with little or no support and crowded out by an excellent Liverpool each time.
As mentioned above, is it the case the Maradona always produced the goods in every big game. Here's a Champions' League semi-final video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fFP9Rp3yxE. It's not to prove any point but just to refresh your memory.
If you genuinely think that Maradona or, somehow, Ronaldo from Brazil was a better player than Messi then fair enough. But please don't be telling us that tonight's performance shows that Messi isn't great.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 07, 2019, 10:35:50 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 07, 2019, 10:18:27 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:15:10 PM
He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much, that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.
Very quick to put that boot in there.
We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.
That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.
Angelo, you had me thinking that you might have a point about Messi with regards to his international record, something I didn't accept before.
However, you're letting yourself down big time here. Barcelona were abysmal tonight. Messi got on the ball on a number of occasions and drove forward with little or no support and crowded out by an excellent Liverpool each time.
As mentioned above, is it the case the Maradona always produced the goods in every big game. Here's a Champions' League semi-final video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fFP9Rp3yxE. It's not to prove any point but just to refresh your memory.
If you genuinely think that Maradona or, somehow, Ronaldo from Brazil was a better player than Messi then fair enough. But please don't be telling us that tonight's performance shows that Messi isn't great.
Tonight's performance allied with all the other no shows when Barca were up against it and moreso when Argentina needed that inspirational guy to change a game for them just keep stacking up.
I'm merely pointing toward the fact it happened again tonight. Critical situations that pass him by again and again.
Also irrespective of whether or not anyone thinks he's better than maradona etc anyone who doesn't think he is a great footballer knows little to nothing about football.(not directed at you Angelo)
In a must-win WC game v Brazil in 1982, Maradona got himself sent off. Got himself sent home from USA '94 for propping up Colombia's economy. Did SFA in the '90 final bar rub up everyone the wrong way. Wasn't he on the field when Barce' also let slip a 2-0 first-leg lead to MU way back when?
All shitting aside. Anyone who watches football trying to find flaws or arguments against Messi being one of the greatest players of all time must be an extraordinarily joyless soul.
Leave aside the personal statistics and trophy haul that would have to put him into any equation. He's absolutely magic to watch. He makes passes that us at home, in panoramic HD, cannot see. And then he weights them perfectly, so perfectly that you presume it's easy. He weaves and dusts past the very best players in the world as if they're pub footballers. He scores each and every kind of goal. And he's done all this for over a decade.
Joyless, joyless c***ts should find another sport to watch.
Here Angelo wise up Ronaldo wasn't able to beat Ajax so where does that leave him??
You've lost the plot!!
Maradona? What did Napoli ever win before he came along in a league where juventus, inter, ac milan, lazio, and parma, all were stronger than most teams in Europe at the time. Messi and Ronaldo played in stronger club teams. I don't think u get anybody on here steadily watching football from the 80's would say either, were better than Maradona. Brazil 1982 had a better team than many a team that won the world cup. Hungary also. Who, but an older generation(well with Brazil anyway) remember these teams.I never seen enough of the Pele as I was too young plus he played all club football in Brazil, but for 10yrs Maradona was the top footballer in the world. I seen nothing since to change my mind.
Quote from: screenexile on May 07, 2019, 11:35:04 PM
Here Angelo wise up Ronaldo wasn't able to beat Ajax so where does that leave him??
You've lost the plot!!
Who mentioned Ronaldo?
I don't think either Messi or CR7 are in the level of Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
I think it's a weak era of football right now.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 07, 2019, 11:41:59 PM
What did Napoli ever win before he came along in a league where juventus, inter, ac milan, lazio, and parma, all were stronger than most teams in Europe at the time. Messi and Ronaldo played in stronger club teams. I don't think u get anybody on here steadily watching football from the 80's would say either, were better than Maradona. Brazil 1982 had a better team than many a team that won the world cup. Hungary also. Who, but an older generation(well with Brazil anyway) remember these teams I never seen enough of them Pele as I was too young plus he played all club football in Brazil but for 10yrs Maradona was the top footballer in the world. I seen nothing since to change my mind.
Maradona won an Italian league when 90% of the players were Italian.
He was an absolutely brilliant player, and one of the greatest of all time. But the EU and the Bowman rulings changed football forever. When you win a top 4 league now you're doing so against the best players in the world, not from one country. Common sense should tell you which is a greater achievement.
By the way I'm not demeaning old football. As in all sport, you can only beat what's in front of you. But football has had its own Darwinism over the past 30 years.
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 07, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
Also irrespective of whether or not anyone thinks he's better than maradona etc anyone who doesn't think he is a great footballer knows little to nothing about football.(not directed at you Angelo)
I think his character and inability to adapt to the mechanics outside of his Barcelona comfort zone is what stifles Messi from being considered one of the best ever. Along with CR7 he is the best around now but I think their standing is more reflective of the current malaise of the game at this point.
Just go have a look at the team milan and inter had at the time. I think Milan from 89-94 is in the top 3 club teams of all time. And Italian fball then was stronger than anywhere else.
Quote from: Angelo on May 07, 2019, 11:47:36 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 07, 2019, 11:35:04 PM
Here Angelo wise up Ronaldo wasn't able to beat Ajax so where does that leave him??
You've lost the plot!!
Who mentioned Ronaldo?
I don't think either Messi or CR7 are in the level of Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
I think it's a weak era of football right now.
The thread is about Messi and the Portuguese Ronaldo. Messi got two goals at home when Liverpool were all over them. It just didn't work out for him tonight. Every time he had the ball in the Liverpool half my nerves were shot. He is still a brilliant player.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 07, 2019, 11:52:22 PM
Just go have a look at the team milan and inter had at the time. I think Milan from 89-94 is in the top 3 club teams of all time. And Italian fball then was stronger than anywhere else.
Milan of 89/90 consisted of 20 Italians and 3 Dutch. They may have been 3 outstanding Dutch, which made them the best team of their day on the continent. But I'll repeat my point: the top teams across the top leagues nowadays are all full of the world's beat players, not a country's best players. Simple mathematics tells you which approach will create better sides.
After last night I can safely say I would rather have Ronaldo on my team going into a tough game.
That would not have happened last night if he had been on the Barca team IMHO
Quote from: Taylor on May 08, 2019, 08:10:16 AM
After last night I can safely say I would rather have Ronaldo on my team going into a tough game.
That would not have happened last night if he had been on the Barca team IMHO
Something that bothers me greatly. We now have more research power than every before at our fingertips. Yet people seem more keen than ever to make absurd proclamations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/9235260.stm
I guess that game wasn't big enough for Ronaldo to stand up in?
Or is it possible to concede that even the greatest players of all time occasionally can't turn it around?
Quote from: thebuzz on May 08, 2019, 12:28:25 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 07, 2019, 11:47:36 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 07, 2019, 11:35:04 PM
Here Angelo wise up Ronaldo wasn't able to beat Ajax so where does that leave him??
You've lost the plot!!
Who mentioned Ronaldo?
I don't think either Messi or CR7 are in the level of Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.
I think it's a weak era of football right now.
The thread is about Messi and the Portuguese Ronaldo. Messi got two goals at home when Liverpool were all over them. It just didn't work out for him tonight. Every time he had the ball in the Liverpool half my nerves were shot. He is still a brilliant player.
And Messi went missing once again in the face of adversity. People can make all the excuses in the world about his goals, his talent and ability. He's 31 now and last night adds to a long list of his disappearing acts in the face of adversity. When the chips are he hides and that's the reason why his legacy should not measure up to the true greats.
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2019, 08:21:47 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 08, 2019, 08:10:16 AM
After last night I can safely say I would rather have Ronaldo on my team going into a tough game.
That would not have happened last night if he had been on the Barca team IMHO
Something that bothers me greatly. We now have more research power than every before at our fingertips. Yet people seem more keen than ever to make absurd proclamations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/9235260.stm
I guess that game wasn't big enough for Ronaldo to stand up in?
Or is it possible to concede that even the greatest players of all time occasionally can't turn it around?
An absurd proclamation or simply an opinion? ::)
In my opinion that wouldnt have happened if Ronaldo had been on Barcelona team.
For some who say he is the greatest player I would have expected more from him last night
It's an absurd opinion as it's full of contradictions.
Marking down one of the most consistently brilliant players in history for not throwing in a 9/10 performance in every single game, is one thing.
But using it as an opportunity to mark up a similarly consistently brilliant player who has also thrown in anonymous performances in big games, well that's just f**king odd.
Quote from: Taylor on May 08, 2019, 08:41:17 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2019, 08:21:47 AM
Quote from: Taylor on May 08, 2019, 08:10:16 AM
After last night I can safely say I would rather have Ronaldo on my team going into a tough game.
That would not have happened last night if he had been on the Barca team IMHO
Something that bothers me greatly. We now have more research power than every before at our fingertips. Yet people seem more keen than ever to make absurd proclamations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/9235260.stm
I guess that game wasn't big enough for Ronaldo to stand up in?
Or is it possible to concede that even the greatest players of all time occasionally can't turn it around?
An absurd proclamation or simply an opinion? ::)
In my opinion that wouldnt have happened if Ronaldo had been on Barcelona team.
For some who say he is the greatest player I would have expected more from him last night
His cheerleaders think hitting a few nice passes cuts it from the greatest player ever in the face of adversity.
Taylor, what exactly do you think Ronaldo would've done last night to avert the result?
Angelo, how do you figure that Messi went missing. He was the only man getting on the ball trying to make things happen. As happens on the board regularly, a poster waits for an opportunity to back up their unshakeable view but only show up their obvious prejudice.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 08:51:45 AM
Taylor, what exactly do you think Ronaldo would've done last night to avert the result?
Angelo, how do you figure that Messi went missing. He was the only man getting on the ball trying to make things happen. As happens on the board regularly, a poster waits for an opportunity to back up their unshakeable view but only show up their obvious prejudice.
You're judging Messi under what you'd judge an ordinary player. Vidal was the best Barca player on display by a mile last night. He went missing last night, you expect the greatest player ever to pull you out of a hole, he did nothing.
In the face of adversity he disappears.
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 08:51:45 AM
Taylor, what exactly do you think Ronaldo would've done last night to avert the result?
Angelo, how do you figure that Messi went missing. He was the only man getting on the ball trying to make things happen. As happens on the board regularly, a poster waits for an opportunity to back up their unshakeable view but only show up their obvious prejudice.
You're judging Messi under what you'd judge an ordinary player. Vidal was the best Barca player on display by a mile last night. He went missing last night, you expect the greatest player ever to pull you out of a hole, he did nothing.
In the face of adversity he disappears.
But what would you have expected him to do in this particular case? What would Maradaona or the Brazilian Ronaldo have done? When Fabinho tripped Messi in the second half when he had four defenders around him, what would Maradona have done?
You've also not dealt with the fact that Maradona got sent off and sent home from two of his four World Cups? Is this digging his team out of a hole?
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 07, 2019, 10:31:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 07, 2019, 10:19:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 02:23:46 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 02, 2019, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 02, 2019, 01:44:31 PM
Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.
Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
How controversial. I don't believe you.
Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.
Messi confirms tonight that he shouldn't be mentioned in same breath as Maradona, Ronaldo or Fat Ronaldo. Not a great player.
Trailer confirms tonight that he does not a clue about football
And you do?
Messi is nothing more than a show pony. When other do the dirty work he can shine. But when the chips are down and you need someone to stand up and be counted, he disappears. He was Captain of that shambles last night. Not for me. Not a great player. Not even top 5 in my book.
Maradona
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo
Zidane
Van Basten
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 09:02:14 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 08:51:45 AM
Taylor, what exactly do you think Ronaldo would've done last night to avert the result?
Angelo, how do you figure that Messi went missing. He was the only man getting on the ball trying to make things happen. As happens on the board regularly, a poster waits for an opportunity to back up their unshakeable view but only show up their obvious prejudice.
You're judging Messi under what you'd judge an ordinary player. Vidal was the best Barca player on display by a mile last night. He went missing last night, you expect the greatest player ever to pull you out of a hole, he did nothing.
In the face of adversity he disappears.
But what would you have expected him to do in this particular case? What would Maradaona or the Brazilian Ronaldo have done? When Fabinho tripped Messi in the second half when he had four defenders around him, what would Maradona have done?
You've also not dealt with the fact that Maradona got sent off and sent home from two of his four World Cups? Is this digging his team out of a hole?
Inspire his team. Maradona was volatile but he did the business. He carried his club and country to success. Messi is great when things are good but he disappears when leadership is badly wanted.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 08:51:45 AM
Taylor, what exactly do you think Ronaldo would've done last night to avert the result?
Angelo, how do you figure that Messi went missing. He was the only man getting on the ball trying to make things happen. As happens on the board regularly, a poster waits for an opportunity to back up their unshakeable view but only show up their obvious prejudice.
IMHO he would have stood up and taken the game to opposition.
Messi did v little last night - he certainly wasnt the best on the Barca team last night.
To be classed as the best or at least one of the best of all time I would expect you to rescue your team in their hour of need or at least make a decent fist of it. Its all fair and well banging goals when all is going well and the team is on top.
Messi is a wonderful player but for me he goes missing too often when the chips are really down and this is what is important when judging how good a player is in the pantheon of all time greats
Messi is an unbelievable player, however he has always had teams and tactics built specifically around him, so when he fails, it usually all goes wrong.
He is so far from captin material however....with both Barcelona and Argentina he has consistantly failed to inspire those around him when the chips are down.
His only means of showing of leadership is with his feet, which is why much lesser talented players like Keane, Vieria, Hierro etc were far, far better captains.
I'm probably wrong but I can't really remember too many important games for club or country where Messi has pulled either Barca or Argentina out of a hole
It's not like he hasn't won anything.
Barcelona
La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2012–13, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2017–18, 2018–19
Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18
Supercopa de España: 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2018
UEFA Champions League: 2005–06, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2014–15
UEFA Super Cup: 2009, 2011, 2015
FIFA Club World Cup: 2009, 2011, 2015
He scored 2 goals in the tie which is up there with what you would expect from a world class striker. Liverpool scored 4 at home including a goal from a corner that a Sunday league team that had all been out on the p1ss the night before would be disappointed to concede.
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 08, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
It's not like he hasn't won anything.
Barcelona
La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2012–13, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2017–18, 2018–19
Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18
Supercopa de España: 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2018
UEFA Champions League: 2005–06, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2014–15
UEFA Super Cup: 2009, 2011, 2015
FIFA Club World Cup: 2009, 2011, 2015
He scored 2 goals in the tie which is up there with what you would expect from a world class striker. Liverpool scored 4 at home including a goal from a corner that a Sunday league team that had all been out on the p1ss the night before would be disappointed to concede.
He hardly played CL football in 05/06.
He went missing when his team needed him.
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 08, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
It's not like he hasn't won anything.
Barcelona
La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2012–13, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2017–18, 2018–19
Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18
Supercopa de España: 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2018
UEFA Champions League: 2005–06, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2014–15
UEFA Super Cup: 2009, 2011, 2015
FIFA Club World Cup: 2009, 2011, 2015
He scored 2 goals in the tie which is up there with what you would expect from a world class striker. Liverpool scored 4 at home including a goal from a corner that a Sunday league team that had all been out on the p1ss the night before would be disappointed to concede.
Barca were a great team - of course they won a load of trophies
No one is disputing he is a great player, however he usually shines when creating / enhancing a lead.
The issue being debated is that he generally does not seem capable of dragging a team up out of a hole when it finds itself behind
Very disappointed with Messi last night, he went missing last night as soon as Liverpool got the 2nd; You can see why he'll never be loved in Argentina like Maradona is.
Messi has reached one CL final in 8 years. Not what you would expect from a team that are guaranteed qualification every season.
Contrast that with Ronaldo.
The CL and how successful you were with your country should be the benchmark when you are comparing some of the greatest players of all time.
Maradona and Ronaldo 'went missing' in as many games as Messi has. Just shows that Messi, the greatest of all time, has set such a high bar that people expect him to deliver 10 out of 10 every night.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on May 08, 2019, 10:09:09 AM
Very disappointed with Messi last night, he went missing last night as soon as Liverpool got the 2nd; You can see why he'll never be loved in Argentina like Maradona is.
Luke Shaw had him in his pocket a few weeks back. He's not the player he was.
Quote from: thewobbler on May 07, 2019, 11:47:42 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 07, 2019, 11:41:59 PM
What did Napoli ever win before he came along in a league where juventus, inter, ac milan, lazio, and parma, all were stronger than most teams in Europe at the time. Messi and Ronaldo played in stronger club teams. I don't think u get anybody on here steadily watching football from the 80's would say either, were better than Maradona. Brazil 1982 had a better team than many a team that won the world cup. Hungary also. Who, but an older generation(well with Brazil anyway) remember these teams I never seen enough of them Pele as I was too young plus he played all club football in Brazil but for 10yrs Maradona was the top footballer in the world. I seen nothing since to change my mind.
Maradona won an Italian league when 90% of the players were Italian.
He was an absolutely brilliant player, and one of the greatest of all time. But the EU and the Bowman rulings changed football forever. When you win a top 4 league now you're doing so against the best players in the world, not from one country. Common sense should tell you which is a greater achievement.
By the way I'm not demeaning old football. As in all sport, you can only beat what's in front of you. But football has had its own Darwinism over the past 30 years.
With a club that won SFA prior or since.
He didn't join one of the big guns and have a free ride.
WRT Messi Liverpool had four or five around him like flies round shite.
Enjoy each for what they are rather than gurning about it.
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 08, 2019, 10:39:08 AM
Maradona and Ronaldo 'went missing' in as many games as Messi has. Just shows that Messi, the greatest of all time, has set such a high bar that people expect him to deliver 10 out of 10 every night.
He doesn't perform when needed most. Not the greatest.
Quote from: tyroneman on May 08, 2019, 09:51:11 AM
I'm probably wrong but I can't really remember too many important games for club or country where Messi has pulled either Barca or Argentina out of a hole
Here's one - Last game of WC 2018 qualifying, 1 down after a minute to Ecuador in Quito (2.8km above sea level) and heading for the embarrassment of not qualifying......
https://www.skysports.com/football/ecuador-vs-argentina/report/349983
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGi7cVxbvr4
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 08, 2019, 10:39:08 AM
Maradona and Ronaldo 'went missing' in as many games as Messi has. Just shows that Messi, the greatest of all time, has set such a high bar that people expect him to deliver 10 out of 10 every night.
He doesn't perform when needed most. Not the greatest.
Jesus!!!! So he's written off after one game?? Ronaldo's team didn't even make the Semi finals . . . wise up!!
Also Portugal have never won the World Cup, or been close, and ultimately won the european final without him as he had to go off early... ;D
So Messi has won nothing of note for his country - not even Copa America, has won less CL than Ronaldo (having been on better teams), goes missing in many big games and some say not only is he better than Ronaldo but the greatest ever ;D ;D ;D
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Actually, do you know what. Your right. I've completely changed my mind now.
Thanks for that.
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 08, 2019, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: tyroneman on May 08, 2019, 09:51:11 AM
I'm probably wrong but I can't really remember too many important games for club or country where Messi has pulled either Barca or Argentina out of a hole
Here's one - Last game of WC 2018 qualifying, 1 down after a minute to Ecuador in Quito (2.8km above sea level) and heading for the embarrassment of not qualifying......
https://www.skysports.com/football/ecuador-vs-argentina/report/349983
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGi7cVxbvr4
Good shout....there's 1.....not exactly a rolling list though
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
I don't think either Ronaldo or messi match up to maradona but they match up to most others i'd say.
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 08, 2019, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: tyroneman on May 08, 2019, 09:51:11 AM
I'm probably wrong but I can't really remember too many important games for club or country where Messi has pulled either Barca or Argentina out of a hole
Here's one - Last game of WC 2018 qualifying, 1 down after a minute to Ecuador in Quito (2.8km above sea level) and heading for the embarrassment of not qualifying......
https://www.skysports.com/football/ecuador-vs-argentina/report/349983
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGi7cVxbvr4
Jesus christ. That legendary football nation of Ecuador. Well why didn't you post this earlier? This changes everything.
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
Who was it that go Maradona sent off in 1982? Did someone spike his drink in 1994? What stopped him in 1990? Was it his fault or someone else's?
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
Who was it that go Maradona sent off in 1982? Did someone spike his drink in 1994? What stopped him in 1990? Was it his fault or someone else's?
1986.
Napoli.
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
A weak era for football is when one man can single-handedly win its most prestigious competition
Quote from: trailer on May 08, 2019, 01:02:56 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 08, 2019, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: tyroneman on May 08, 2019, 09:51:11 AM
I'm probably wrong but I can't really remember too many important games for club or country where Messi has pulled either Barca or Argentina out of a hole
Here's one - Last game of WC 2018 qualifying, 1 down after a minute to Ecuador in Quito (2.8km above sea level) and heading for the embarrassment of not qualifying......
https://www.skysports.com/football/ecuador-vs-argentina/report/349983
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGi7cVxbvr4
Jesus christ. That legendary football nation of Ecuador. Well why didn't you post this earlier? This changes everything.
+1
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
Who was it that go Maradona sent off in 1982? Did someone spike his drink in 1994? What stopped him in 1990? Was it his fault or someone else's?
1986.
Napoli.
If in doubt, answer a different question than you were asked. Credibility gone I'm afraid.
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
It's not a weak era for football, it's feck all different now than any time. Actually, probably stronger now, because it's more global and the best players world wide have flocked to the top European leagues, of which La Liga is one. Messi's club career has been a sustained era of brilliance, probably unsurpassed by any other player. Maradona's club career minus Napoil = ?
Quote from: mouview on May 08, 2019, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
It's not a weak era for football, it's feck all different now than any time. Actually, probably stronger now, because it's more global and the best players world wide have flocked to the top European leagues, of which La Liga is one. Messi's club career has been a sustained era of brilliance, probably unsurpassed by any other player. Maradona's club career minus Napoil = ?
Is it a strong era for defenders? Now that they can't plough through from behind or generally kick talented players off the pitch? Sport is about attacking AND defending. The balance has shifted very much in favour of attackers in recent times....this must be remembered.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2019, 02:49:48 PM
Quote from: mouview on May 08, 2019, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
It's not a weak era for football, it's feck all different now than any time. Actually, probably stronger now, because it's more global and the best players world wide have flocked to the top European leagues, of which La Liga is one. Messi's club career has been a sustained era of brilliance, probably unsurpassed by any other player. Maradona's club career minus Napoil = ?
Is it a strong era for defenders? Now that they can't plough through from behind or generally kick talented players off the pitch? Sport is about attacking AND defending. The balance has shifted very much in favour of attackers in recent times....this must be remembered.
Agreed, much like the black card in GAA. However, the flip side is that defensive systems/tactics have probably improved.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2019, 02:49:48 PM
Quote from: mouview on May 08, 2019, 02:45:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
It's not a weak era for football, it's feck all different now than any time. Actually, probably stronger now, because it's more global and the best players world wide have flocked to the top European leagues, of which La Liga is one. Messi's club career has been a sustained era of brilliance, probably unsurpassed by any other player. Maradona's club career minus Napoil = ?
Is it a strong era for defenders? Now that they can't plough through from behind or generally kick talented players off the pitch? Sport is about attacking AND defending. The balance has shifted very much in favour of attackers in recent times....this must be remembered.
Indeed, Marco Van Basten had his career brutally curtailed by challenges that today would land defenders in court.
Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2019, 01:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Angelo on May 08, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 08, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Who has won more Spanish leagues though? Does that mean he's more consistent? Also Ronaldo basically didn't play in portugal's winning euro final team though did get them to the final. Messi has played in a World Cup final.
That Argentina team in the last World Cup were woeful. Sure rojo looks like one of their best defenders and he is atrocious.
Why is it always everyone else's fault? Managers, teammates, tactics. The guy is meant to be the greatest ever, he can't seem to do it when he's needed though.
Messi might be the greatest La Liga player ever but he has huge question marks over his legacy.
He really doesn't. As someone said sure Ronaldo is already out of Europe so can he be blamed fo that? His team were beat so was it his fault?
I would flip your question round to ask why is it always his fault? He was not invisible in that game last night and was in fact far from it on little supply and being very very heavily marked.
I'm not on about Ronaldo. In my opinion, neither match up to the greats of previous eras. The tags about greatest ever are ridiculous. I could understand someone in their teens or early 20s thinking so but he's never done it in a World Cup and now seems to have taken up going missing in Europe when the chips are down.
It's a weak era for football.
A weak era for football is when one man can single-handedly win its most prestigious competition
A weak era for football is when the guy who is meant to be the best player in a world by a landslide distance is a choker who disappears in the face of adversity.
Some dung talked on here....Messi took the knocks and carried on.....Ronaldo ....looking for his mirror.
Neither in my opinion are a patch on the GOAT....George Best.....closely followed by Pele.
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 08, 2019, 07:15:32 PM
Some dung talked on here....Messi took the knocks and carried on.....Ronaldo ....looking for his mirror.
Neither in my opinion are a patch on the GOAT....George Best.....closely followed by Pele.
Can the mods take the word Bolt off your username? Because you only need the first word after that post
Quote from: Christmas Lights on May 08, 2019, 11:22:09 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on May 08, 2019, 07:15:32 PM
Some dung talked on here....Messi took the knocks and carried on.....Ronaldo ....looking for his mirror.
Neither in my opinion are a patch on the GOAT....George Best.....closely followed by Pele.
Can the mods take the word Bolt off your username? Because you only need the first word after that post
Could be right😂
Can't wait for this
https://twitter.com/MaradonaMovie/status/1126774658701725696?s=09
Quote from: Boycey on May 10, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
Can't wait for this
https://twitter.com/MaradonaMovie/status/1126774658701725696?s=09
Seen the trailer today, genuinely excited. Could be argued he was the 2nd coming.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on May 10, 2019, 09:34:25 PM
Quote from: Boycey on May 10, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
Can't wait for this
https://twitter.com/MaradonaMovie/status/1126774658701725696?s=09
Seen the trailer today, genuinely excited. Could be argued he was the 2nd coming.
Go on then :)
We will maybe see if Messi can join Ronaldo and 'do it at more than one club'
I have no doubt whatsoever Messi could 'do it' in any league in the world.
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Quote from: toby47 on August 26, 2020, 08:39:23 AM
We will maybe see if Messi can join Ronaldo and 'do it at more than one club'
I have no doubt whatsoever Messi could 'do it' in any league in the world.
You'd imagine if he leaves, he will join Guardiola at City. It ticks all the boxes - they are wealthy enough to have him, the Manager understands him, they are vying for major trophies.
1mill a week current salary. Think thats the basic before all the other shizzle
If he goes, then surely Citeh pay the money
To answer the question in the title, Messi, and it's not even close.
Citeh look the most likely team but hopefully he goes to a proper club. There will likely be a lot of scrutiny around his contract release clause that Barcelona will have to sort.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 12:36:27 AM
To answer the question in the title, Messi, and it's not even close.
Citeh look the most likely team but hopefully he goes to a proper club. There will likely be a lot of scrutiny around his contract release clause that Barcelona will have to sort.
Whao - a lot of nonsense on one post.
Why do you say its not even close?
And what do you mean by a proper club?
Quote from: BennyCake on August 26, 2020, 09:11:18 AM
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Jeepers Benny that's some statement, up there with your De Gea nonsense.
My vote goes to Messi but there's not much in it
Quote from: gawa316 on August 27, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 26, 2020, 09:11:18 AM
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Jeepers Benny that's some statement, up there with your De Gea nonsense.
My vote goes to Messi but there's not much in it
Messi is limited. Good at what he does do, but he just doesn't excite me the way Ronaldo does. Some of the stuff Ronaldo does is unbelievable: he's very good in the air, great leap, good free taker, some great flicks, backheels, and that overhead kick v Juventus - stunning.
Messi is poor in the air, not a great free taker, and doesn't possess the box of tricks Ronaldo does.
Yes Ronaldo can be petulant, greedy and selfish with the ball, but he's the far superior player in my opinion. Always has been.
Quote from: BennyCake on August 27, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 27, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 26, 2020, 09:11:18 AM
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Jeepers Benny that's some statement, up there with your De Gea nonsense.
My vote goes to Messi but there's not much in it
Messi is limited. Good at what he does do, but he just doesn't excite me the way Ronaldo does. Some of the stuff Ronaldo does is unbelievable: he's very good in the air, great leap, good free taker, some great flicks, backheels, and that overhead kick v Juventus - stunning.
Messi is poor in the air, not a great free taker, and doesn't possess the box of tricks Ronaldo does.
Yes Ronaldo can be petulant, greedy and selfish with the ball, but he's the far superior player in my opinion. Always has been.
Ronaldo is the most overrated free taker ever. Messi far better in that department.
Quote from: BennyCake on August 27, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 27, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 26, 2020, 09:11:18 AM
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Jeepers Benny that's some statement, up there with your De Gea nonsense.
My vote goes to Messi but there's not much in it
Messi is limited. Good at what he does do, but he just doesn't excite me the way Ronaldo does. Some of the stuff Ronaldo does is unbelievable: he's very good in the air, great leap, good free taker, some great flicks, backheels, and that overhead kick v Juventus - stunning.
Messi is poor in the air, not a great free taker, and doesn't possess the box of tricks Ronaldo does.
Yes Ronaldo can be petulant, greedy and selfish with the ball, but he's the far superior player in my opinion. Always has been.
I'll give you the poor in the air bit (Although I'd say that physical issue for the pip sqeak). But he has 2 less direct free kicks than Ronaldo from 200 less games. Don't think that's "not great".
Quote from: BennyCake on August 27, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 27, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 26, 2020, 09:11:18 AM
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Jeepers Benny that's some statement, up there with your De Gea nonsense.
My vote goes to Messi but there's not much in it
Messi is limited. Good at what he does do, but he just doesn't excite me the way Ronaldo does. Some of the stuff Ronaldo does is unbelievable: he's very good in the air, great leap, good free taker, some great flicks, backheels, and that overhead kick v Juventus - stunning.
Messi is poor in the air, not a great free taker, and doesn't possess the box of tricks Ronaldo does.
Yes Ronaldo can be petulant, greedy and selfish with the ball, but he's the far superior player in my opinion. Always has been.
Yeah very poor in the air https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpmBxQMsPt0
Not a great free taker? https://michelacosta.com/en/free-kick-goals-messi-cristiano-ronaldo/
Rooney rates Messi over Ronaldo, and he played alongside Ronaldo.
Ronaldo is over 6f, so more about power and pace. Messi more about cuteness
This sums it up
https://michelacosta.com/en/
Messi better player but more importantly a far greater team player who takes a larger role in team members scoring than Ronaldo does. Plus messi doesn't act like a spoilt child.
Quote from: shark on August 27, 2020, 02:59:34 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 27, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: gawa316 on August 27, 2020, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 26, 2020, 09:11:18 AM
Always thought Messi was overrated.
Not a patch on Ronaldo.
Jeepers Benny that's some statement, up there with your De Gea nonsense.
My vote goes to Messi but there's not much in it
Messi is limited. Good at what he does do, but he just doesn't excite me the way Ronaldo does. Some of the stuff Ronaldo does is unbelievable: he's very good in the air, great leap, good free taker, some great flicks, backheels, and that overhead kick v Juventus - stunning.
Messi is poor in the air, not a great free taker, and doesn't possess the box of tricks Ronaldo does.
Yes Ronaldo can be petulant, greedy and selfish with the ball, but he's the far superior player in my opinion. Always has been.
Yeah very poor in the air https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpmBxQMsPt0
Not a great free taker? https://michelacosta.com/en/free-kick-goals-messi-cristiano-ronaldo/
Looking forward to the response to this
Quote from: tyrone08 on August 27, 2020, 03:32:30 PM
This sums it up
https://michelacosta.com/en/
Messi better player but more importantly a far greater team player who takes a larger role in team members scoring than Ronaldo does. Plus messi doesn't act like a spoilt child.
You obviously didn't see Messi behaving like a lazy hoor against Bayern?
Quote from: tyrone08 on August 27, 2020, 03:32:30 PM
This sums it up
https://michelacosta.com/en/
Messi better player but more importantly a far greater team player who takes a larger role in team members scoring than Ronaldo does. Plus messi doesn't act like a spoilt child.
What's he at, at the minute then?
Never tried a leg v Bayern once they went 2-1 ahead either.
I consider Messi to be better too. He does go missing on occasion - usually more for Argentina - but still his ability to me is above anyone I've seen bar Maradona.
Ronaldo all day.
He does it on the world stage as well with a supporting cast nothing like Messi has in Argentina
Crickey messi has a few bad games and the knives are out.
Messi has stayed at the same club for 20 years and owes them nothing. Ronaldo moves about clubs so the lime light is constantly on him and that he's centre of attention.
Let me ask this. Have you ever seen messi through a wobbler cause a player scored a goal instead of passing it. Numerous clips of Ronaldo throwing toys out of the pram cause a team mate scored instead of him.
Beside the stats in that link clearly show he's the better player.
Quote from: Taylor on August 27, 2020, 04:08:41 PM
Ronaldo all day.
He does it on the world stage as well with a supporting cast nothing like Messi has in Argentina
Messi has a higher win rate, scoring rate and better assist rate but Ronaldo is the better player. How do you figure that one?
Quote from: tyrone08 on August 27, 2020, 04:27:55 PM
Crickey messi has a few bad games and the knives are out.
Messi has stayed at the same club for 20 years and owes them nothing. Ronaldo moves about clubs so the lime light is constantly on him and that he's centre of attention.
Let me ask this. Have you ever seen messi through a wobbler cause a player scored a goal instead of passing it. Numerous clips of Ronaldo throwing toys out of the pram cause a team mate scored instead of him.
Beside the stats in that link clearly show he's the better player.
Messi is well ahead of Ronaldo for me. These debates will always be about personal preference but would agree with this
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 27, 2020, 03:50:24 PM
I consider Messi to be better too. He does go missing on occasion - usually more for Argentina - but still his ability to me is above anyone I've seen bar Maradona.
I cant believe this is a question and there is a debate on it.
Quote from: tyrone08 on August 27, 2020, 04:27:55 PM
Crickey messi has a few bad games and the knives are out.
Messi has stayed at the same club for 20 years and owes them nothing. Ronaldo moves about clubs so the lime light is constantly on him and that he's centre of attention.
Let me ask this. Have you ever seen messi through a wobbler cause a player scored a goal instead of passing it. Numerous clips of Ronaldo throwing toys out of the pram cause a team mate scored instead of him.
Beside the stats in that link clearly show he's the better player.
Ah but Messi dont score headers ye know........
It is always worth considering the supporting cast both players had - both club and country.
Very subjective - no one persons opinion is right and someone else incorrect
I never understand the need for absolution in this debate.
Probably the two greatest players of all time.
Different physical attributes and slightly different skillsets, but almost identical outcomes.
Of course Ronaldo has had the more varied club career, but that's a straw clutching argument when it never enters the equation in other sports, and football's "hall of fame" includes the likes of Maldini, Baresi, Moore, Beckenbauer, Charlton, Xavi, Iniesta, Pele, Muller who were one club or as-good-as-one-club players.
Can't we just enjoy them both?
Quote from: Taylor on August 27, 2020, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 12:36:27 AM
To answer the question in the title, Messi, and it's not even close.
Citeh look the most likely team but hopefully he goes to a proper club. There will likely be a lot of scrutiny around his contract release clause that Barcelona will have to sort.
Whao - a lot of nonsense on one post.
Why do you say its not even close?
And what do you mean by a proper club?
Jesus don't cry Taylor.
I say it's not even close because Messi is better than Ronaldo, and it's not close.
And you know rightly what I mean by a 'proper' club. A big club, with history and tradition, that hasn't needed oil money to get to where they are. A player like Messi deserves to go to one.
You must be a citeh fan for getting butthurt at that comment.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 05:56:41 PM
Quote from: Taylor on August 27, 2020, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 12:36:27 AM
To answer the question in the title, Messi, and it's not even close.
Citeh look the most likely team but hopefully he goes to a proper club. There will likely be a lot of scrutiny around his contract release clause that Barcelona will have to sort.
Whao - a lot of nonsense on one post.
Why do you say its not even close?
And what do you mean by a proper club?
Jesus don't cry Taylor.
I say it's not even close because Messi is better than Ronaldo, and it's not close.
And you know rightly what I mean by a 'proper' club. A big club, with history and tradition, that hasn't needed oil money to get to where they are. A player like Messi deserves to go to one.
You must be a citeh fan for getting butthurt at that comment.
ha!
You got me shooters - close to the bone ::)
Yes a City fan - how can we become a proper club - please advise?
We won the FA Cup as far back as 1904 along with a few leagues, more FA Cups, League Cups and a Cup Winners Cup and this was all before the 80's.
Can we count this as history?
Quote from: Taylor on August 28, 2020, 08:28:10 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 05:56:41 PM
Quote from: Taylor on August 27, 2020, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 12:36:27 AM
To answer the question in the title, Messi, and it's not even close.
Citeh look the most likely team but hopefully he goes to a proper club. There will likely be a lot of scrutiny around his contract release clause that Barcelona will have to sort.
Whao - a lot of nonsense on one post.
Why do you say its not even close?
And what do you mean by a proper club?
Jesus don't cry Taylor.
I say it's not even close because Messi is better than Ronaldo, and it's not close.
And you know rightly what I mean by a 'proper' club. A big club, with history and tradition, that hasn't needed oil money to get to where they are. A player like Messi deserves to go to one.
You must be a citeh fan for getting butthurt at that comment.
ha!
You got me shooters - close to the bone ::)
Yes a City fan - how can we become a proper club - please advise?
We won the FA Cup as far back as 1904 along with a few leagues, more FA Cups, League Cups and a Cup Winners Cup and this was all before the 80's.
Can we count this as history?
Lad - serious question, do you genuinely believe there is a debate around who is better - Messi or Ronaldo? Or is it just a bit of craic this? I have to say I never met any serious soccer follower who thought Ronaldo was the better player (not saying they don't exist)
Best players of their generation but it's been a poor era for football.
Neither of them could lace R9's boots.
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 01:31:03 PM
Best players of their generation but it's been a poor era for football.
Neither of them could lace R9's boots.
Do you ever make a serious comment on any subject?
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 01:31:03 PM
Best players of their generation but it's been a poor era for football.
Neither of them could lace R9's boots.
Do you ever make a serious comment on any subject?
That's a serious comment.
I don't think either of them would have really stood out in another generation.
I'd have the likes of a peak Shevchenko or a peak Pavel Nedved over them in all honesty.
Ronaldo for me, Messi is fantastic also... not much between them in fairness so its personal choice
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
;D ;D ;D
Shevcenko really showed why he was better than both at Chelsea as well
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
That comment shows that your football knowledge is attributable to the back of The Sun or something
Yes Pavel Nedved - a Ballon d'Or winner.
One of the greatest midfielder to ever grace the game. Do you even remember watching him play? He was as complete a footballer as you could find.
Quote from: Taylor on August 28, 2020, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
;D ;D ;D
Shevcenko really showed why he was better than both at Chelsea as well
Shevchenko was finished when he arrived at Chelsea, you don't see many 20 year olds ripping up the CL these years with a team like Dynamo Kiev.
Also another Ballon d'Or winner.
So Ballon d'Or winners specify greatness?
Means you are shit out of luck with your two men Angelo...
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
That comment shows that your football knowledge is attributable to the back of The Sun or something
Yes Pavel Nedved - a Ballon d'Or winner.
One of the greatest midfielder to ever grace the game. Do you even remember watching him play? He was as complete a footballer as you could find.
In the last 24 hours you have stated the following nonsense on this forum
1- Pavel Nedved and Shevchenko were better players than Messi and Ronaldo
2- This is a poor era for football (I assume to downgrade the achievments of both Messi & Ronaldo) even though the game is played at an incredible pace today versus a decade ago
3- Glasgow Rangers would be a the same level as Sheffield Utd
4- And then this quite incredible comment regarding Irish players that might be worthy to play for Celtic...
Egan is a carthorse, I don't think he makes the Celtic XI, Stephen is a player who has spent the vast majority of his career playing in the LOI and English lower leagues. He is 30 years of age and just after his first ever season in top flight football, he's a very average player and was playing in the 4th tier of English football 3 years ago. They happen to play for a very well coached and organised outfit though. When you see these lads in action for Ireland, you realise how poor they are. The only Irish player who I think would come in and improve the Celtic team right now is the guy they are after - Duffy. I think the rest of them would struggle to earn a spot. Coleman is finish, Doherty can't defend to save his life, they don't have a striker near the class of Edouard. Their midfield options available to Ireland are abysmal. McGregor, Christie, Rogic, Ntcham would all walk onto that Irish side.
Taylor has much more about him.
Not even the Sun would print such unbelievable garbage.
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
That comment shows that your football knowledge is attributable to the back of The Sun or something
Yes Pavel Nedved - a Ballon d'Or winner.
One of the greatest midfielder to ever grace the game. Do you even remember watching him play? He was as complete a footballer as you could find.
In the last 24 hours you have stated the following nonsense on this forum
1- Pavel Nedved and Shevchenko were better players than Messi and Ronaldo
2- This is a poor era for football (I assume to downgrade the achievments of both Messi & Ronaldo) even though the game is played at an incredible pace today versus a decade ago
3- Glasgow Rangers would be a the same level as Sheffield Utd
4- And then this quite incredible comment regarding Irish players that might be worthy to play for Celtic...
Egan is a carthorse, I don't think he makes the Celtic XI, Stephen is a player who has spent the vast majority of his career playing in the LOI and English lower leagues. He is 30 years of age and just after his first ever season in top flight football, he's a very average player and was playing in the 4th tier of English football 3 years ago. They happen to play for a very well coached and organised outfit though. When you see these lads in action for Ireland, you realise how poor they are. The only Irish player who I think would come in and improve the Celtic team right now is the guy they are after - Duffy. I think the rest of them would struggle to earn a spot. Coleman is finish, Doherty can't defend to save his life, they don't have a striker near the class of Edouard. Their midfield options available to Ireland are abysmal. McGregor, Christie, Rogic, Ntcham would all walk onto that Irish side.
Taylor has much more about him.
Not even the Sun would print such unbelievable garbage.
Yes, I would stand by all of them.
The Sun would be more in touch with your musings is more of a poor reflection on you than me.
The fact that you find it incredible that one would rate Nedved - one of the greatest midfielders to ever play the game - as a better player than Messi or Ronaldo I think sums up your knowledge of football.
Nedved and Shevchenko played in a much tougher era of football than Messi and C Ronaldo played in - trying to say otherwise just makes you look silly or like someone who started watching football in 2012.
It's probably the worst Irish football team in living memory.
Hard to compare when not dealing with a level playing field, get Ronaldo on a course of growth hormone, see how he fares, then I'll know
Matt Doherty, who can't defend to save his life, about to join spurs. We can only imagine its because Jose Mourinho knows nothing about football or because Celtic are way better than spurs. To think differently would mean Angelos post above is utter shite and sure that couldn't be right.
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 05:16:29 PM
Matt Doherty, who can't defend to save his life, about to join spurs. We can only imagine its because Jose Mourinho knows nothing about football or because Celtic are way better than spurs. To think differently would mean Angelos post above is utter shite and sure that couldn't be right.
Yes, because Spurs would never sign a dud?
Mourinho last few years in football management would suggest he is a busted flush.
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 05:54:56 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 05:16:29 PM
Matt Doherty, who can't defend to save his life, about to join spurs. We can only imagine its because Jose Mourinho knows nothing about football or because Celtic are way better than spurs. To think differently would mean Angelos post above is utter shite and sure that couldn't be right.
Yes, because Spurs would never sign a dud?
Mourinho last few years in football management would suggest he is a busted flush.
Sure Angelo, the former manager of Man Utd, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Porto who's won quite a few trophy along the way also gets his knowledge of soccer from the back of the Sun newspaper.
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 06:02:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 05:54:56 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 05:16:29 PM
Matt Doherty, who can't defend to save his life, about to join spurs. We can only imagine its because Jose Mourinho knows nothing about football or because Celtic are way better than spurs. To think differently would mean Angelos post above is utter shite and sure that couldn't be right.
Yes, because Spurs would never sign a dud?
Mourinho last few years in football management would suggest he is a busted flush.
Sure Angelo, the former manager of Man Utd, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Porto who's won quite a few trophy along the way also gets his knowledge of soccer from the back of the Sun newspaper.
Given his recent results in his last few jobs it wouldn't surprise me.
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 04:41:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
That comment shows that your football knowledge is attributable to the back of The Sun or something
Yes Pavel Nedved - a Ballon d'Or winner.
One of the greatest midfielder to ever grace the game. Do you even remember watching him play? He was as complete a footballer as you could find.
In the last 24 hours you have stated the following nonsense on this forum
1- Pavel Nedved and Shevchenko were better players than Messi and Ronaldo
2- This is a poor era for football (I assume to downgrade the achievments of both Messi & Ronaldo) even though the game is played at an incredible pace today versus a decade ago
3- Glasgow Rangers would be a the same level as Sheffield Utd
4- And then this quite incredible comment regarding Irish players that might be worthy to play for Celtic...
Egan is a carthorse, I don't think he makes the Celtic XI, Stephen is a player who has spent the vast majority of his career playing in the LOI and English lower leagues. He is 30 years of age and just after his first ever season in top flight football, he's a very average player and was playing in the 4th tier of English football 3 years ago. They happen to play for a very well coached and organised outfit though. When you see these lads in action for Ireland, you realise how poor they are. The only Irish player who I think would come in and improve the Celtic team right now is the guy they are after - Duffy. I think the rest of them would struggle to earn a spot. Coleman is finish, Doherty can't defend to save his life, they don't have a striker near the class of Edouard. Their midfield options available to Ireland are abysmal. McGregor, Christie, Rogic, Ntcham would all walk onto that Irish side.
Taylor has much more about him.
Not even the Sun would print such unbelievable garbage.
Yes, I would stand by all of them.
The Sun would be more in touch with your musings is more of a poor reflection on you than me.
The fact that you find it incredible that one would rate Nedved - one of the greatest midfielders to ever play the game - as a better player than Messi or Ronaldo I think sums up your knowledge of football.
Nedved and Shevchenko played in a much tougher era of football than Messi and C Ronaldo played in - trying to say otherwise just makes you look silly or like someone who started watching football in 2012.
It's probably the worst Irish football team in living memory.
You do realise all 4 of those players were at the same World Cup in 2006.. Also Nedved + CR played in the Euros in 2004.
Nedved won his only Ballon d'or in 2003
Shev won his only Ballon d'or in 2004, then a whole era later...
CR won his first in 2008
LM won his first in 2009
But yeah, the first two played in a much tougher era.
Quote from: Taylor on August 28, 2020, 08:28:10 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 05:56:41 PM
Quote from: Taylor on August 27, 2020, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 27, 2020, 12:36:27 AM
To answer the question in the title, Messi, and it's not even close.
Citeh look the most likely team but hopefully he goes to a proper club. There will likely be a lot of scrutiny around his contract release clause that Barcelona will have to sort.
Whao - a lot of nonsense on one post.
Why do you say its not even close?
And what do you mean by a proper club?
Jesus don't cry Taylor.
I say it's not even close because Messi is better than Ronaldo, and it's not close.
And you know rightly what I mean by a 'proper' club. A big club, with history and tradition, that hasn't needed oil money to get to where they are. A player like Messi deserves to go to one.
You must be a citeh fan for getting butthurt at that comment.
ha!
You got me shooters - close to the bone ::)
Yes a City fan - how can we become a proper club - please advise?
We won the FA Cup as far back as 1904 along with a few leagues, more FA Cups, League Cups and a Cup Winners Cup and this was all before the 80's.
Can we count this as history?
No, 2 leagues and a few cup wins before yous won the lottery doesn't count as history, in terms of the big clubs. That is dwarfed by most clubs in England. The Cup winners cup is also not a major trophy.
City will never be a big club now that they're being bankrolled by oil money no matter how many trophies they win. Just over 10 years ago yous were getting hammered 8-0 by middlesbrough. Same with the likes of PSG. Two plastic clubs who were nowhere before big money came in. Everyone who knows anything about football will know these two clubs will never be 'big' clubs.
Nedved and Shevchenko better than Ronaldo and Messi. Jesus christ the night i've heard it all now. Bound to be on the wind up
Quote from: Estimator on August 28, 2020, 06:09:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 04:41:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on August 28, 2020, 02:59:59 PM
I cant believe what nonsense I am reading here. Pavel Nedved. Holy f**k. Over and out.
That comment shows that your football knowledge is attributable to the back of The Sun or something
Yes Pavel Nedved - a Ballon d'Or winner.
One of the greatest midfielder to ever grace the game. Do you even remember watching him play? He was as complete a footballer as you could find.
In the last 24 hours you have stated the following nonsense on this forum
1- Pavel Nedved and Shevchenko were better players than Messi and Ronaldo
2- This is a poor era for football (I assume to downgrade the achievments of both Messi & Ronaldo) even though the game is played at an incredible pace today versus a decade ago
3- Glasgow Rangers would be a the same level as Sheffield Utd
4- And then this quite incredible comment regarding Irish players that might be worthy to play for Celtic...
Egan is a carthorse, I don't think he makes the Celtic XI, Stephen is a player who has spent the vast majority of his career playing in the LOI and English lower leagues. He is 30 years of age and just after his first ever season in top flight football, he's a very average player and was playing in the 4th tier of English football 3 years ago. They happen to play for a very well coached and organised outfit though. When you see these lads in action for Ireland, you realise how poor they are. The only Irish player who I think would come in and improve the Celtic team right now is the guy they are after - Duffy. I think the rest of them would struggle to earn a spot. Coleman is finish, Doherty can't defend to save his life, they don't have a striker near the class of Edouard. Their midfield options available to Ireland are abysmal. McGregor, Christie, Rogic, Ntcham would all walk onto that Irish side.
Taylor has much more about him.
Not even the Sun would print such unbelievable garbage.
Yes, I would stand by all of them.
The Sun would be more in touch with your musings is more of a poor reflection on you than me.
The fact that you find it incredible that one would rate Nedved - one of the greatest midfielders to ever play the game - as a better player than Messi or Ronaldo I think sums up your knowledge of football.
Nedved and Shevchenko played in a much tougher era of football than Messi and C Ronaldo played in - trying to say otherwise just makes you look silly or like someone who started watching football in 2012.
It's probably the worst Irish football team in living memory.
You do realise all 4 of those players were at the same World Cup in 2006.. Also Nedved + CR played in the Euros in 2004.
Nedved won his only Ballon d'or in 2003
Shev won his only Ballon d'or in 2004, then a whole era later...
CR won his first in 2008
LM won his first in 2009
But yeah, the first two played in a much tougher era.
Yes.
Sheva and Nedved had both been on the scene years earlier.
Nedved had starred for a Czech Republic team who made their way to the European Championships final in 96, he was named MOTM in the semi final and was the Czech's main man.
By the time he finally won the Ballon d'Or he had already won 3 Serie A titles with Lazio and Juve. It was Lazio's third ever Serie A title, again Nedved was the main man and Juve brought him to replace Zidane, I think you'll find Nedved is remembered more fondly in Italy than Zidane.
As a 20 year old Shevchenko brought little ol Dynamo Kiev to the QF of the CL, scoring a hat trick at the Nou Camp along the way. That was back in 1997.
Why did it take Shevchenko and Nedved until they were in their late 20s to win a Ballon d'Or - well it's what I said earlier, they played in a great era of football, they had the likes of Zidane and the real Ronaldo to compete with. Bonafide world class players like Batistuta, Totti, Maldini, Redondo never came within an whisker of winning one in that era - there was so much quality and so many big names.
Look at Messi's pathetic record at international level, going into hiding and letting the likes of Di Maria and Mascherano show the leadership for Argentina.
The Brazilian Ronaldo was a few levels above both CR7 and Messi at his peak and as I said earlier, I'd have the likes of peak Nedved and Shevchenko over them.
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 01:46:43 PM
I'd have the likes of a peak Shevchenko or a peak Pavel Nedved over them in all honesty.
Andy Sinton would have to be up there as well
Djimi Traore. He has to be in the mix here.
So you're saying you'd have Nedved and Shevchenko over 91 goals and 22 assists 2012 Messi??
I used to love Nedved back in his Juve days but this is the first time ever I have heard him not only being compared to Messi & Ronaldo but actually being called better :o
He was a cracking footballer - really liked watching him play too. If I mind rightly I think he got injured in the euros when it looked like Czech Republic might win it which was a pity. Maybe that was the year Greece won it.
Wikipedia says messi only scored 73 goals on his best year. Not even worth talking about ;D
I remember Nedved before he went to Juve. At lazio, Veron, Nesta, Marcel Salas, . They had a quality team.
Italian league was really strong then. 5 or 6 teams were in a realistic shot of winning the league.
Football Italia with James Richardson was some show.
Quote from: Nanderson on August 28, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
So you're saying you'd have Nedved and Shevchenko over 91 goals and 22 assists 2012 Messi??
I'm saying Messi is a bit of a flat track bully, he's a very good one trick pony but we've seen that he can't do it in adversity.
Look how he crumbles with a star studded Argentina, every time.
And as I've said countless times before, it's a lot easier to look good in the era Ronaldo and Messi peaked in.
It's similar as to how Federer stopped winning slams when Nadal and Djokovic turned up. Competition changes things, there's not a striker in the game today as good as a peak Sheva/Batistuta/Ronaldo/Vieri, nor a midfielder in the game today as good as a peak Nedved or Redondo - none are even close. There's no goalkeeper around as good as a peak Buffon, no full back around who could rival Zanetti/Cafu, no centre back in the same league as Nesta, Maldini, Thuram and so on and so forth.
Lewandowski would have won the Ballon d'Or this year if it had been handed out, he's a great player but he's not in the same level as a peak Sheva and that shows why Messi and Ronaldo have dominated the football scene for the past decade - it has been weak.
So post all the stats up you guys want, they don't change the context.
Messi should always be judged with his record for the national side at major tournaments a major asterisk over him.
The real Ronaldo won a World Cup by himself when he came back from 2 years out with a knee injury. That knee injury that he came back from robbed him of his explosiveness, he was about 70% of the player he was, yet it did not stop him from achieve greatness.
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest of all time, certainly up there with Maradona anyway.
Nedved was a very good player, but to elevate him *far* above such as Zidane, Savicevic, Hagi, Iniesta, Zavi, Stojkovic, Pirlo etc. etc. (and these are just his own-era contemporaries) is plain bonkers.
CR7 deserves his place in the pantheon of the greats, but there can be no comparison between he and Messi. Peak-Messi in the early years of this decade was extraordinary; almost weekly doing for Barce' what Maradona did for the Argies in '86. Watch his performance the night they shredded a star-studded Madrid team 5-0 at the Nou Camp.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/16/my-favourite-game-barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga-2010-messi-mourinho-guardiola
Saying Messi never did it at International level is a red herring. Despite having the best side in the tournament, Pekerman fatally undermined it in 2006 with bizarre use of subs and leaving a young Messi benched.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/worldcup2006blog/2006/jun/30/argentinablowitwithcrazys#comment-399711
Maradona was manager in 2010, enough said. Despite not being fully fit in 2014, Messi still guided them to the final that year, and may well have won a very tight game had that lumbering lug Higuain not eschewed a golden chance. 2018, many of the team were past their peak.
If Messi never did it at International level, then he joins those other greats Puskas, Di Stefano, Eusebio, Best, Cryuff, Platini etc.
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 10:52:49 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 28, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
So you're saying you'd have Nedved and Shevchenko over 91 goals and 22 assists 2012 Messi??
I'm saying Messi is a bit of a flat track bully, he's a very good one trick pony but we've seen that he can't do it in adversity.
Look how he crumbles with a star studded Argentina, every time.
And as I've said countless times before, it's a lot easier to look good in the era Ronaldo and Messi peaked in.
It's similar as to how Federer stopped winning slams when Nadal and Djokovic turned up. Competition changes things, there's not a striker in the game today as good as a peak Sheva/Batistuta/Ronaldo/Vieri, nor a midfielder in the game today as good as a peak Nedved or Redondo - none are even close. There's no goalkeeper around as good as a peak Buffon, no full back around who could rival Zanetti/Cafu, no centre back in the same league as Nesta, Maldini, Thuram and so on and so forth.
Lewandowski would have won the Ballon d'Or this year if it had been handed out, he's a great player but he's not in the same level as a peak Sheva and that shows why Messi and Ronaldo have dominated the football scene for the past decade - it has been weak.
So post all the stats up you guys want, they don't change the context.
Messi should always be judged with his record for the national side at major tournaments a major asterisk over him.
The real Ronaldo won a World Cup by himself when he came back from 2 years out with a knee injury. That knee injury that he came back from robbed him of his explosiveness, he was about 70% of the player he was, yet it did not stop him from achieve greatness.
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest of all time, certainly up there with Maradona anyway.
I certainly wouldn't call any Argentina team star studded. Yes they have always had fantastic attackers but in every international tournament they have lacked a powerful midfielder or a dominant centre back or even a half decent keeper and not to forget a manager that knows what he is doing. If Messi has an asterisk over him for major tournaments why all the praise for shev/nedved when they never achieved anything either? Messi got Argentina to a World cup final and was named POTT only losing out in extra time to a far superior Germany team
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 10:52:49 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 28, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
So you're saying you'd have Nedved and Shevchenko over 91 goals and 22 assists 2012 Messi??
I'm saying Messi is a bit of a flat track bully, he's a very good one trick pony but we've seen that he can't do it in adversity.
Look how he crumbles with a star studded Argentina, every time.
And as I've said countless times before, it's a lot easier to look good in the era Ronaldo and Messi peaked in.
It's similar as to how Federer stopped winning slams when Nadal and Djokovic turned up. Competition changes things, there's not a striker in the game today as good as a peak Sheva/Batistuta/Ronaldo/Vieri, nor a midfielder in the game today as good as a peak Nedved or Redondo - none are even close. There's no goalkeeper around as good as a peak Buffon, no full back around who could rival Zanetti/Cafu, no centre back in the same league as Nesta, Maldini, Thuram and so on and so forth.
Lewandowski would have won the Ballon d'Or this year if it had been handed out, he's a great player but he's not in the same level as a peak Sheva and that shows why Messi and Ronaldo have dominated the football scene for the past decade - it has been weak.
So post all the stats up you guys want, they don't change the context.
Messi should always be judged with his record for the national side at major tournaments a major asterisk over him.
The real Ronaldo won a World Cup by himself when he came back from 2 years out with a knee injury. That knee injury that he came back from robbed him of his explosiveness, he was about 70% of the player he was, yet it did not stop him from achieve greatness.
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest of all time, certainly up there with Maradona anyway.
Vieri????? Is that the €40m clod who missed an absolute sitter for Italy v South Korea in 2002 and cost them a chance to progress? Some International-level player he..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62B0UBFUdk0
If International achievement is the only metric, then Paulo Rossi is the greatest striker of all time.
Put down the Internet for a while Angelo, take time away.
Quote from: mouview on August 28, 2020, 11:08:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 28, 2020, 10:52:49 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 28, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
So you're saying you'd have Nedved and Shevchenko over 91 goals and 22 assists 2012 Messi??
I'm saying Messi is a bit of a flat track bully, he's a very good one trick pony but we've seen that he can't do it in adversity.
Look how he crumbles with a star studded Argentina, every time.
And as I've said countless times before, it's a lot easier to look good in the era Ronaldo and Messi peaked in.
It's similar as to how Federer stopped winning slams when Nadal and Djokovic turned up. Competition changes things, there's not a striker in the game today as good as a peak Sheva/Batistuta/Ronaldo/Vieri, nor a midfielder in the game today as good as a peak Nedved or Redondo - none are even close. There's no goalkeeper around as good as a peak Buffon, no full back around who could rival Zanetti/Cafu, no centre back in the same league as Nesta, Maldini, Thuram and so on and so forth.
Lewandowski would have won the Ballon d'Or this year if it had been handed out, he's a great player but he's not in the same level as a peak Sheva and that shows why Messi and Ronaldo have dominated the football scene for the past decade - it has been weak.
So post all the stats up you guys want, they don't change the context.
Messi should always be judged with his record for the national side at major tournaments a major asterisk over him.
The real Ronaldo won a World Cup by himself when he came back from 2 years out with a knee injury. That knee injury that he came back from robbed him of his explosiveness, he was about 70% of the player he was, yet it did not stop him from achieve greatness.
The Brazilian Ronaldo is the greatest of all time, certainly up there with Maradona anyway.
Vieri????? Is that the €40m clod who missed an absolute sitter for Italy v South Korea in 2002 and cost them a chance to progress? Some International-level player he..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62B0UBFUdk0
If International achievement is the only metric, then Paulo Rossi is the greatest striker of all time.
Put down the Internet for a while Angelo, take time away.
That would be the same Vieri who scored two goals in three WC knockout games as opposed to Messi who has scored 0 goals in 8 WC knockout games.
Vieri had one season in Spanish football, he scored 24 goals in 24 La Liga games - must mean Messi is a clod too.
This thread is breathtaking ;D
Hard to believe that people would mention better players of a generation alongside a couple of the best players of all time.
Each to their own.
How is Messi a one trick pony? First time I've heard that actually.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 29, 2020, 04:30:52 PM
How is Messi a one trick pony? First time I've heard that actually.
Same man has mentioned it before I think, though it may have been 'one dimensional'.
Great thread though ;D. Can I throw Michael Owen into the mix, former Ballon D'or winner
Quote from: JoG2 on August 29, 2020, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 29, 2020, 04:30:52 PM
How is Messi a one trick pony? First time I've heard that actually.
Same man has mentioned it before I think, though it may have been 'one dimensional'.
Great thread though ;D. Can I throw Michael Owen into the mix, former Ballon D'or winner
Absolutely, Owen had two trick but Messi only has one. Angelo needs to take his medicine. I find it hard to believe I have to say this but for me Messi is the greatest player there has ever been and probably ever will be. A complete freak of nature. We are so privileged to had a chance to see his genius over the past 10 years. His stats are astonishing. How anyone with any idea about playing soccer thinks any different, well I just can't believe it. "Peak" Messi is at a completely different level to any other player
......apart from Nedved
.........and Schevchenko
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on August 29, 2020, 06:12:31 PM
......apart from Nedved
.........and Schevchenko
Don't forget Redondo
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on August 29, 2020, 06:12:31 PM
......apart from Nedved
.........and Schevchenko
And both Ronaldos.
Saying Messi and CR7 are greater players than R9 and Shevchenko is like saying One Direction were a greater band than The Beatles.
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
Sadam had comical Ali but this board has comical Angelo
A lot of truth in that Angelo.
Messi has never played in a bad team. He was always surrounded by that Barcelona team who dominated for years. Now that Barca are on the wane, he doesn't seem to try a leg and we're seeing a very different Messi.
Quote from: Angelo on August 29, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
You said in this post that when playing international football he has struggled without his star studded supporting cast, yet on the previous page you said his Argentina teams were super talented. Confused.
I love the way people come up with imaginary criteria to determine greatness; for example, you have to win a World Cup to be the greatest ever. Over the past few years a new one has came about - you have to be amazing in multiple leagues to be the best ever. Both are just reasons used to back certain footballers claims to be the best.
I don't think this is really worth debating. If it was Maradona or Pele etc being mentioned here alongside Ronaldo and Messi then fair enough, debate away, but Nedved and Shevchenko.. better than Ronaldo and Messi.. my god.
It's just wrong, and everyone here knows it. Better to let him tear away.
You're all attacker mad.
Give me Maldini and McGrath any day.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 29, 2020, 11:30:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 29, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
You said in this post that when playing international football he has struggled without his star studded supporting cast, yet on the previous page you said his Argentina teams were super talented. Confused.
I love the way people come up with imaginary criteria to determine greatness; for example, you have to win a World Cup to be the greatest ever. Over the past few years a new one has came about - you have to be amazing in multiple leagues to be the best ever. Both are just reasons used to back certain footballers claims to be the best.
There's plenty of stars he has played with Argentina for but they are not Xavi, Iniesta or Busquets. Messi can only play one way. He's a one trick pony. He needs players around him with tireless energy who can run all day, who can move the ball quickly with little one touch triangles and so forth.
Without that he looks quite ordinary which is exactly why he has failed to light up any major international tournament he has played in. If he was the greatest this would not matter.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 29, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
I don't think this is really worth debating. If it was Maradona or Pele etc being mentioned here alongside Ronaldo and Messi then fair enough, debate away, but Nedved and Shevchenko.. better than Ronaldo and Messi.. my god.
It's just wrong, and everyone here knows it. Better to let him tear away.
There's no doubt in my mind.
Messi is playing in an extremely weak era of football. He would not have stood out if he arrived on the scene 10 years prior.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:23:39 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 29, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
I don't think this is really worth debating. If it was Maradona or Pele etc being mentioned here alongside Ronaldo and Messi then fair enough, debate away, but Nedved and Shevchenko.. better than Ronaldo and Messi.. my god.
It's just wrong, and everyone here knows it. Better to let him tear away.
There's no doubt in my mind.
Messi is playing in an extremely weak era of football. He would not have stood out if he arrived on the scene 10 years prior.
That would have put his peak around 2002-2007.
Some of the highlights of that "golden age" include:
- Greece winning Euro 2004, without a single recognisable player.
- Porto without any pace or forwards being champions of Europe in 2004.
- Dudek, Finnan, Traore, Garcia and Baros starting for the best team in Europe 2005.
- Germany making the WC final 2006 without a single genuine talent outfield, and utterly nondescript players like Linke, Ramelow, Jeremies, Bose and Schneider all in the first XI.
- Forlan, Totti and Toni being the golden shoe winners before Messi and Ronaldo taking control.
As the saying goes you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:22:17 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 29, 2020, 11:30:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 29, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
You said in this post that when playing international football he has struggled without his star studded supporting cast, yet on the previous page you said his Argentina teams were super talented. Confused.
I love the way people come up with imaginary criteria to determine greatness; for example, you have to win a World Cup to be the greatest ever. Over the past few years a new one has came about - you have to be amazing in multiple leagues to be the best ever. Both are just reasons used to back certain footballers claims to be the best.
There's plenty of stars he has played with Argentina for but they are not Xavi, Iniesta or Busquets. Messi can only play one way. He's a one trick pony. He needs players around him with tireless energy who can run all day, who can move the ball quickly with little one touch triangles and so forth.
Without that he looks quite ordinary which is exactly why he has failed to light up any major international tournament he has played in. If he was the greatest this would not matter.
Do you forget the 2014 World Cup?
Quote from: thewobbler on August 30, 2020, 08:42:03 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:23:39 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 29, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
I don't think this is really worth debating. If it was Maradona or Pele etc being mentioned here alongside Ronaldo and Messi then fair enough, debate away, but Nedved and Shevchenko.. better than Ronaldo and Messi.. my god.
It's just wrong, and everyone here knows it. Better to let him tear away.
There's no doubt in my mind.
Messi is playing in an extremely weak era of football. He would not have stood out if he arrived on the scene 10 years prior.
That would have put his peak around 2002-2007.
Some of the highlights of that "golden age" include:
- Greece winning Euro 2004, without a single recognisable player.
- Porto without any pace or forwards being champions of Europe in 2004.
- Dudek, Finnan, Traore, Garcia and Baros starting for the best team in Europe 2005.
- Germany making the WC final 2006 without a single genuine talent outfield, and utterly nondescript players like Linke, Ramelow, Jeremies, Bose and Schneider all in the first XI.
- Forlan, Totti and Toni being the golden shoe winners before Messi and Ronaldo taking control.
As the saying goes you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Yes that would be the same peak.
Germany were host nations in 2006. If you look at the German team that won in 2014, it had household names like Howedes, Kramer, Mertesacker and Schurrle involved.
Totti was a greater player than Messi ever was. Absolute fact, he came back from a broken ankle in late February to deliver a WC to Italy 4 months later. He was in the twilight of his career in 2007, in his 30s at that point.
Forlan was an excellent striker too but also was 30 when he claimed that award.
But that does show you, there was a void coming there in football and Ronaldo and Messi didn't have to be exceptional to come the best. Thanks for reinforcing my argument with those points.
Lol.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:22:17 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 29, 2020, 11:30:59 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 29, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
You said in this post that when playing international football he has struggled without his star studded supporting cast, yet on the previous page you said his Argentina teams were super talented. Confused.
I love the way people come up with imaginary criteria to determine greatness; for example, you have to win a World Cup to be the greatest ever. Over the past few years a new one has came about - you have to be amazing in multiple leagues to be the best ever. Both are just reasons used to back certain footballers claims to be the best.
There's plenty of stars he has played with Argentina for but they are not Xavi, Iniesta or Busquets. Messi can only play one way. He's a one trick pony. He needs players around him with tireless energy who can run all day, who can move the ball quickly with little one touch triangles and so forth.
Without that he looks quite ordinary which is exactly why he has failed to light up any major international tournament he has played in. If he was the greatest this would not matter.
Do you forget the 2014 World Cup?
The 2014 World Cup?
I remember it well. Di Maria and Mashcerano were the main Argentina players when Messi went missing.
Argentina played 450 minutes of knockout football, they scored 2 goals and conceded none (Di Maria and Higuain).
Messi was anonymous.
So weve now Totti Nedved and Schevchenko ahead of the little man. The list continues to grow. Hope Lionel isnt reading all this....
Quote from: Angelo on August 29, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
Yea 12 goals in 19 games against Italian teams in the champions league really shows how much he has struggled
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:23:39 AM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on August 29, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
I don't think this is really worth debating. If it was Maradona or Pele etc being mentioned here alongside Ronaldo and Messi then fair enough, debate away, but Nedved and Shevchenko.. better than Ronaldo and Messi.. my god.
It's just wrong, and everyone here knows it. Better to let him tear away.
There's no doubt in my mind.
Messi is playing in an extremely weak era of football. He would not have stood out if he arrived on the scene 10 years prior.
Totti now too ;D Please seek attention from a psychiatrist as soon as possible.
Shevchenko was highly rated, but the reality of where he stands on the list of all time greats was shown when he couldnt cut it in the Premier League.
Quote from: Nanderson on August 30, 2020, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on August 29, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nanderson on August 29, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Just think of the amount of goals peak messi and ronaldo would have scored during Nedved and Shevchenko 'era'. They would have been hitting 40+ league goals for fun in a slower paced game dancing around slow bulky defenders with zero pace
You're off your head.
If Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now then I think it tells you all you need to know about the abysmal state of the game at present. Messi generally struggled against Italian teams, he has been absolutely pathetic at the business end of international tournaments without his star studded supporting cast.
Whatever about Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi is a complete one trick pony, when you put in place a highly energetic team who are all technically proficient and can play these one touch pass triangles then there is nobody better than him - but when you take him out of that and you ask him to deliver outside his comforts then he fails consistently.
At least CR7 can say he has done it in England, Spain and Italy. Messi has done it with a great Barcelona team who had plenty of once in a generation talents too playing alongside him - Argentina with always be the death knell for Messi. Guys like Di Maria and Mascherano were the leaders and the main men in those Argentina sides. They were a non-scoring well drilled outfit and Messi just couldn't deliver.
0 goals in 8 WC knockout matches - failure but if he scores 4 goals agaisnt Levante or Eibar then he's the greatest, apparently.
Yea 12 goals in 19 games against Italian teams in the champions league really shows how much he has struggled
Your facts are both incorrect and compltely lacking in context.
0 goals in 4 games against Inter.
8 goals in 8 games against Milan (4 of those from penalties). One of those games contained a brace of goals in a 4-0 win, so he's scored from play in 3 of 8 appearances against Milan.
2 goals in 4 games against Roma - both goals coming in a brace in a 6-1 Barca win in the group stage, failed to score in the other 3 games
2 goals in 5 games against Juve - both goals coming in a 3-0 group stage win over Juventus, failed to score in the other 4 games.
1 goal against Napoli in 2 games.
0 goal against Udinese in 1 game.
I make that 11 goals in 22 games, 7 goals from play in 22 games. So I make it that Messi has only managed to score a goal that didn't come for a penalty kick in 6 of his 22 appearances against Italian sides, meaning that he has failed to score a non-penalty goal in 16 of the 22 games he has played against Italian opposition - not the most impressive of readings now is it?
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
Shevchenko was highly rated, but the reality of where he stands on the list of all time greats was shown when he couldnt cut it in the Premier League.
Shevchenko arrived to the EPL in his 30s, he was done.
Thierry Henry couldn't hack it in Italy and didn't really do too much in La Liga either. Will you write him off too?
Messi has only done it at Barcelona, he has also stank the stage out on international level, playing for one of the traditional superpowers of international football.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
Shevchenko was highly rated, but the reality of where he stands on the list of all time greats was shown when he couldnt cut it in the Premier League.
Shevchenko arrived to the EPL in his 30s, he was done.
Thierry Henry couldn't hack it in Italy and didn't really do too much in La Liga either. Will you write him off too?
Messi has only done it at Barcelona, he has also stank the stage out on international level, playing for one of the traditional superpowers of international football.
Stats can be very misleading. You claim Totti as being better than Messi yet has only scored 1 goal in 14 games against English opposition in UCL. Nedved 2 in 14 against English teams. Shev got 2 in 10. Lets face it some teams struggle when facing a different type of team. Italian league is traditionally slower so couldnt handle pace of the premier league teams. La Liga is traditionally filled with smaller more technical players who couldnt handle the physicality of the Italian league. Messi has blitzed spanish teams, english teams, german teams and as your stats show he struggled against the Italians.
Would just like to throw another underrated player into the mix of Van Basten. Think he retired at 28 with injuries but had a phenomenal goal scoring record. Also it would have been interesting to see what sort of player brazilian ronaldo would have been if it wasn't for his knee injuries and later thyroid issues. Think he would have been the GOAT with probably a goal every game sort of ratio
Quote from: Nanderson on August 30, 2020, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
Shevchenko was highly rated, but the reality of where he stands on the list of all time greats was shown when he couldnt cut it in the Premier League.
Shevchenko arrived to the EPL in his 30s, he was done.
Thierry Henry couldn't hack it in Italy and didn't really do too much in La Liga either. Will you write him off too?
Messi has only done it at Barcelona, he has also stank the stage out on international level, playing for one of the traditional superpowers of international football.
Stats can be very misleading. You claim Totti as being better than Messi yet has only scored 1 goal in 14 games against English opposition in UCL. Nedved 2 in 14 against English teams. Shev got 2 in 10. Lets face it some teams struggle when facing a different type of team. Italian league is traditionally slower so couldnt handle pace of the premier league teams. La Liga is traditionally filled with smaller more technical players who couldnt handle the physicality of the Italian league. Messi has blitzed spanish teams, english teams, german teams and as your stats show he struggled against the Italians.
Would just like to throw another underrated player into the mix of Van Basten. Think he retired at 28 with injuries but had a phenomenal goal scoring record. Also it would have been interesting to see what sort of player brazilian ronaldo would have been if it wasn't for his knee injuries and later thyroid issues. Think he would have been the GOAT with probably a goal every game sort of ratio
Totti was never really a noted goalscorer until Spalletti moved him into a striker position in his 30s, previously he was an advanced midfielder who created the play, someone who dropped deep and let bodies get ahead of him, Totti is hands down the best one touch passer to ever play the game, nobody could play the game as good as Totti with their back to goal. For the majority of his career, his duty was to provide for the out the out and out strikers.
And it's also worth noting Roma weren't that successful, bar a few years under Capello they spent most of their time in financial difficulties.
Nedved always was a tireless midfielder, he chipped in with goals on an intermittent basis but goals would always have been the responsibility of players like Trezeguet, Del Piero, Inzaghi, Ibrahimovic.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
Messi has always been a goalscorer, it's what his game has been about, teams have been completely built around him but as playing with Argentina has shown, when the perfect environment and supporting cast isn't there to play his type of game - he doesn't look like half the player he does at Barcelona.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
Shevchenko was highly rated, but the reality of where he stands on the list of all time greats was shown when he couldnt cut it in the Premier League.
Shevchenko arrived to the EPL in his 30s, he was done.
Thierry Henry couldn't hack it in Italy and didn't really do too much in La Liga either. Will you write him off too?
Messi has only done it at Barcelona, he has also stank the stage out on international level, playing for one of the traditional superpowers of international football.
He arrived at Chelsea when he was 29 and there were no signs of him being done in his previous season at Milan hence Chelsea paying big bucks for him.
Surely David Healy deserves a mention in this company.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 01:06:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 11:57:21 AM
Shevchenko was highly rated, but the reality of where he stands on the list of all time greats was shown when he couldnt cut it in the Premier League.
Shevchenko arrived to the EPL in his 30s, he was done.
Thierry Henry couldn't hack it in Italy and didn't really do too much in La Liga either. Will you write him off too?
Messi has only done it at Barcelona, he has also stank the stage out on international level, playing for one of the traditional superpowers of international football.
He arrived at Chelsea when he was 29 and there were no signs of him being done in his previous season at Milan hence Chelsea paying big bucks for him.
He arrived at Chelsea when he was 29 and turned 30 a couple of weeks later. There were evident signs of him being done at Milan. He went back on a loan spell two years later and failed to score for them in 18 Serie A appearances, his legs had shown big signs of going. I don't think Mourinho being in charge really helped either as he wanted a big target man type player like Drogba.
When players hit the 30 mark they can pretty much go off the boil overnight, it's much more common for strikers as a striker generally relies on their movement and an ability to get in behind defences, when they slow up they lose that and Shevchenko's game was based around playing off the shoulder and his movement.
The only thing we know about Messi is that outside of Barcelona, he has disappointed majorly with Argentina.
Quote from: ONeill on August 30, 2020, 01:20:28 PM
Surely David Healy deserves a mention in this company.
Good shout he's done more on the International stage than Messi surely!!!
Quote from: screenexile on August 30, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 30, 2020, 01:20:28 PM
Surely David Healy deserves a mention in this company.
Good shout he's done more on the International stage than Messi surely!!!
I know you say it in jest but it really highlights how pathetic a guy labeled as the best ever has been outside of Barcelona.
I remember Shevchenko at Chelsea. He was such a different player from his time at Milan.
I kept thinking they'd bought his brother Dave Shevchenko instead.
Messi has scored 70 goals at international level by the way, alot more than Shevchenko who was a striker. He is essentially the 5th top scorer internationally of all time.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 04:44:43 PM
Messi has scored 70 goals at international level by the way, alot more than Shevchenko who was a striker. He is essentially the 5th top scorer internationally of all time.
Messi played for Argentina, 2x WC winner and 14x Copa America winners. He's won nothing with them. He is noted for collapsing at major international tournaments, he might be a good man to score a hat trick in a friendly or against cannon fodder though.
Shevchenko played for Ukraine who have only qualified for the WC once in their history when Shevchenko was their captain and they made it as far as the QF stage.
34 of Messi's 70 international goals have come in friendlies.
8 of Shevchenko's 48 international goals came in friendlies.
https://twitter.com/TomasORuanaidh/status/1299655314485149696?s=09 (https://twitter.com/TomasORuanaidh/status/1299655314485149696?s=09)
His balance is sublime. The balance allows him to do what he wants with his feet. He's at the very least the best for a generation - I don't know how it is an argument. Sheva isn't even part of the same conversation! You'll not find 9 mins of Sheva.
Quote from: screenexile on August 30, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 30, 2020, 01:20:28 PM
Surely David Healy deserves a mention in this company.
Good shout he's done more on the International stage than Messi surely!!!
Peter Crouch should also be in the mix here.. better goals per game ratio (at international level) than Shearer, Rooney, Charlton and Owen.
Quote from: Estimator on August 30, 2020, 05:29:58 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 30, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 30, 2020, 01:20:28 PM
Surely David Healy deserves a mention in this company.
Good shout he's done more on the International stage than Messi surely!!!
Peter Crouch should also be in the mix here.. better goals per game ratio (at international level) than Shearer, Rooney, Charlton and Owen.
Franny Jeffers. Played one, scored one. Get him into the poll.
Quote from: Estimator on August 30, 2020, 05:29:58 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 30, 2020, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 30, 2020, 01:20:28 PM
Surely David Healy deserves a mention in this company.
Good shout he's done more on the International stage than Messi surely!!!
Peter Crouch should also be in the mix here.. better goals per game ratio (at international level) than Shearer, Rooney, Charlton and Owen.
Good call, crouch also is twice as tall as Messi and once scored a bicycle kick which useless Messi never did.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 30, 2020, 05:20:45 PM
https://twitter.com/TomasORuanaidh/status/1299655314485149696?s=09 (https://twitter.com/TomasORuanaidh/status/1299655314485149696?s=09)
His balance is sublime. The balance allows him to do what he wants with his feet. He's at the very least the best for a generation - I don't know how it is an argument. Sheva isn't even part of the same conversation! You'll not find 9 mins of Sheva.
Here's 10 and a half mins of Sheva.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehcubdd_0XE
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Messi's celebrations were nowhere near world class. Crouch raised the bar celebrating, and alongside his goals-per-game ratio, he's up there with Eusebio, Socrates and Di Stefano.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Which is why David Healy MUST come under consideration
Quote from: thewobbler on August 30, 2020, 07:17:23 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Which is why David Healy MUST come under consideration
A pity Healy didn't get to pad his records with hat tricks against Haiti and Guatemala in friendlies.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Evidence?
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:33:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Evidence?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Lionel_Messi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_goals_scored_by_Andriy_Shevchenko
36 goals for Messi in competitive games, 34 goals in friendlies
40 goals for Sheva in competiitve games, 8 goals in friendlies
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Would they?
On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Were they not?
Jam packed with Champions League Winners and players whom huge transfer fees were paid for, their whole squads had players who played for the top teams in Europe.
Guys like Zanetti, Samuel, Cambiasso, Tevez, Di Maria, Mascherano, Ayala, Aguero, Crespo, Veron, Milito, Heinze, Pastore, Higuain, Riquelme, Gago, Banega, Heinze, Burdisso, Otamendi, Sorin, Dybala, Aimar, Maxi Rodriguez etc etc and there's loads more I've missed out on.
The difference was the Argentina squads of old had guys like Kempes and Maradona and this one had Messi. The former rose to the occasion and the latter floundered. Saying that the squad around Messi was poor is utterly preposterous, they were all regulars in some of the biggest club sides in Europe, CL, Serie A, EPL, La Liga winners and regulars in winning teams.
You're a weird guy, Angelo.
The guts of a hundred pretty detailed posts in the last three days, virtually all of which aggressively pushing various unpopular opinions.
It almost seems like practice for something. Or some sort of bizarre performance art. Or just something not very healthy.
Is the time spent on this discussion board a positive influence on your life?
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Would they?
On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?
If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:59:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Would they?
On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?
If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.
South American teams automatically enter the Copa America without any qualifcation process and have a much easier qualifying path than European teams.
European teams are really baldy discriminated against when it comes to World Cup qualification.
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:59:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Would they?
On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?
If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.
South American teams automatically enter the Copa America without any qualifcation process and have a much easier qualifying path than European teams.
European teams are really baldy discriminated against when it comes to World Cup qualification.
Uruguay (5), Colombia(10), Peru(21), Brazil (3), Venezuela(25), Bolivia(75)Paraguay(41), Argentina (9), Chile(17) and Ecuador(63) - Top 4 out of 10 automatically qualify. 5th place goes into a play-off.
Bar Ecuador and Bolivia - South America is pretty competitive.
This is a fantastic thread.
Some boys going to a wile lot of effort to prove the WUM wrong. The WUMs puttin in a fair bit of effort also it has to be said.
Carry on
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:59:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2020, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 30, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on August 30, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.
Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.
Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?
Yes.
Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.
And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.
Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.
Would they?
On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?
If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.
South American teams automatically enter the Copa America without any qualifcation process and have a much easier qualifying path than European teams.
European teams are really baldy discriminated against when it comes to World Cup qualification.
Uruguay (5), Colombia(10), Peru(21), Brazil (3), Venezuela(25), Bolivia(75)Paraguay(41), Argentina (9), Chile(17) and Ecuador(63) - Top 4 out of 10 automatically qualify. 5th place goes into a play-off.
Bar Ecuador and Bolivia - South America is pretty competitive.
Is that FIFA World Rankings you are using?
So 40% of South American teams are guaranteed qualification and another side has a 50-50 chance to bring it up to 50%?
What do Europe get? About 10% chance of qualification?
I think we all agree that Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved were nowhere near the player Messi is. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous, plus there have been better midfielders/strikers than Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved over the past 20 years too other than Ronaldo or Messi.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 31, 2020, 09:20:19 AM
I think we all agree that Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved were nowhere near the player Messi is. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous, plus there have been better midfielders/strikers than Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved over the past 20 years too other than Ronaldo or Messi.
What about Steve Bruce. He played Centre back for Man Utd and once scored 20 goals in a season and this was no ordinary season, this was during the height of football excellence when Lee Sharpe terrorised defences. I don't remember Messi ever even playing Centre Back never mind scoring 20 goals from there. Likewise for Shevchenko and Nedved, never did anything from Centre Back. Steve Bruce I tells ya.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 31, 2020, 09:20:19 AM
I think we all agree that Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved were nowhere near the player Messi is. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous, plus there have been better midfielders/strikers than Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved over the past 20 years too other than Ronaldo or Messi.
Everytime there is context added to Messi's stats put forward the goalposts shift from the Messi fanboys.
The difference is that Totti/Shevchenko/Nedved all played in a generation that was laden with stars where Messi and Ronaldo have played in a fairly mediocre era.
Take De Bruyne for instance, if he is one of the top midfielders in the world right now then it says it all. If Van Dijk is the best defender in the world right now, then it says it all. None of these players would have stood out as anything above average in 10-20 years ago.
The guys who have actually tried to argue with me on this are the ones who have strengthened my argument, look at what you have been able to uncover about Messi.
Only ever done it at one club, completely unproven anywhere else.
A failure at international level.
A failure against Italian clubs.
A guy who has scored half of his international goals in friendlies.
A guy who failed to score in the WC knockout stage in 8 appearances.
A guy who played in a national team laden with CL/EPL/La Liga/Serie A winners and went hiding when his country needed him
What was it Maradona said about Messi a few years back? "Are you Argentinian or Swedish?" The meaning being that Agrentina are a superpower on the international football stage, you look at their squad, it will have guys from PSG, Man City, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Inter Milan, Juventus, Man Utd, Spurs, Atletico Madrid etc.
And he can't deliver with that? Why not? Well all we know is that he's a great player with a wonderful Barcelona side but the only evidence outside of that comfort zone is a failure and people tend to get too hung up on hat tricks against Eibar and Levante and Haiti and Guatemala.
Nedved and Sheva were the type of guys I'd rely on in the white heat of battle. Nedved in particular, the guy was a warrior, a proper leader who did iywherever he went in his career, an inspiration at international level.
A lot of you are either 16 or have only really a passive interest in football.
I can't wait for your next critical analysis.
Michael Jordan underachieved, by at least half.
The current Dublin team is worthless unless they do 6 in a row.
The Godather is the weakest Oscar winning movie o all time.
The Beatles had zero influence on pop music.
The internet wasn't an important invention.
Hot food is overrated.
Breathing is for wankers.
I mean like somewhere along the line, when you keep pulling stats out of your arse, you must encounter the 700 goals, 300 assists (not his job apparently), 10 national titles and 4 European titles.
You don't have to conclude that the regularity of his goal scoring and assists making was the central cog in all of those titles. But you'd have to be one seriously fucked up individual to spend days researching against that opinion.
Is Messi a greater player than Suarez?
I really think that is dubious, nevermind to go at legends who played in a different generation that was crammed with world class players.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 31, 2020, 10:32:15 AM
I mean like somewhere along the line, when you keep pulling stats out of your arse, you must encounter the 700 goals, 300 assists (not his job apparently), 10 national titles and 4 European titles.
You don't have to conclude that the regularity of his goal scoring and assists making was the central cog in all of those titles. But you'd have to be one seriously fucked up individual to spend days researching against that opinion.
Stats are like mini skirts.
What is very interesting is that he's only done it at Barcelona.
The other tangible comparison we have is Argentina where he has been an abrupt failure.
Hat tricks against Levante, Eibar, Guatemala and Haiti really paint a picture of a bit of a flat track bully.
If Schevenko and Nedved really are your gold standard for the previous generation, then you really need to rethink how you describe that generation.
By the way, the two best players of that generation were Messi and Ronaldo (in no particular order).
Quote from: Angelo on August 31, 2020, 10:34:36 AM
Is Messi a greater player than Suarez?
I really think that is dubious, nevermind to go at legends who played in a different generation that was crammed with world class players.
Yes
Quote from: Angelo on August 31, 2020, 10:38:52 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 31, 2020, 10:32:15 AM
I mean like somewhere along the line, when you keep pulling stats out of your arse, you must encounter the 700 goals, 300 assists (not his job apparently), 10 national titles and 4 European titles.
You don't have to conclude that the regularity of his goal scoring and assists making was the central cog in all of those titles. But you'd have to be one seriously fucked up individual to spend days researching against that opinion.
Stats are like mini skirts.
What is very interesting is that he's only done it at Barcelona.
The other tangible comparison we have is Argentina where he has been an abrupt failure.
Hat tricks against Levante, Eibar, Guatemala and Haiti really paint a picture of a bit of a flat track bully.
In isolation perhaps.
Over a career, when only one other player in lifetime memory has had comparable figures for goals and assists, it's no longer about statistics. It's about recognition. And you are on the off-the-charts weirdo for pretending you can't recognise this.
Breathing is overrated. Discuss.
Lets have a look at Pele's stats. 50 of his 77 international goals were scored in friendlies. He never won a Copa America despite Brazil being far and away the best international team in the world let alone in the CONMEBOL. Massively unerachieved with Santos only winning 2 copa libertardores despite them being widely regarded the best and most star studded club team of all time. His goal scoring exploits are wildly overhyped by scoring 470 goals in 412 State league games which would be the same as Barcelona playing in a league of only Catalan teams including amateur teams.
Everytime there is context added to Messi's stats put forward the goalposts shift from the Messi fanboys.
[/quote]
Context allows for bias so I can understand why you would like to bring that in. Arguing about opinions is generally pointless. But usually when 98% of people would have an opinion one way and the 2% the other then it's generally accepted the majority are more likely to be right than you are to being the one enlighten soul. You can argue against that, in fact I would expect you to. But I think everyone knows your either deluded, uninformed about the topic or sadly just trying to argue for the sake of it.
Hold on... could it be.... do you think it's possible...??
Angelo = TONY FEARON ????
Get a thread started about clerical abuse thatll bring him out into the open
Quote from: mouview on August 31, 2020, 04:05:34 PM
Hold on... could it be.... do you think it's possible...??
Angelo = TONY FEARON ????
Do you know what ....
Quote from: Billys Boots on August 31, 2020, 04:24:00 PM
Quote from: mouview on August 31, 2020, 04:05:34 PM
Hold on... could it be.... do you think it's possible...??
Angelo = TONY FEARON ????
Do you know what ....
In fairness Tony followed grass roots soccer, Dundalk and knew a bit about the sport. Unlike this fella.
What a mess of a thread
Quote from: thewobbler on August 30, 2020, 08:42:03 AM
Some of the highlights of that "golden age" include:
- Germany making the WC final 2006 without a single genuine talent outfield, and utterly nondescript players like Linke, Ramelow, Jeremies, Bose and Schneider all in the first XI.
As the saying goes you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Have another look at that final Wobbler.
Quote from: JimStynes on August 31, 2020, 08:32:03 PM
What a messi of a thread
Fixed that, I'll get my coat.....
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on September 02, 2020, 03:19:15 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 30, 2020, 08:42:03 AM
Some of the highlights of that "golden age" include:
- Germany making the WC final 2006 without a single genuine talent outfield, and utterly nondescript players like Linke, Ramelow, Jeremies, Bose and Schneider all in the first XI.
As the saying goes you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Have another look at that final Wobbler.
Lahm, Ballack, Schweinsteiger to name a few
For a WC final they were a reasonably limited team though. From memory Ballack carried them a bit. (Lahm no doubt very good but I think he was full back then - did he not move to centre midfield?) Schweinsteiger also moved to centre mid and was significantly better there.
I would have said football was worse round those eras than it is now. Sure Greece won the Euros in 2000 or whatever year it was round that time.
Anyway the thread's gone mad. They're both fantastic with no one in a long long time having been anywhere near their standard.
Apologies, I should have typed 2002.
For reference this was the Germany team:
Kahn (captain)
Metzelder
Linke
Frings
Hamann
Jeremies
Ramelow
Schneider
Bode
Klose
Neuville
Kahn a class act. Klose a World Cup legend without being a great player. Then it's a bunch of lads who mostly wouldn't the current England squad.
Vintage period for football my arse. Everyone knew that Ireland would never have a better chance of a World Cup run than that year.
Quote from: mouview on August 31, 2020, 04:05:34 PM
Hold on... could it be.... do you think it's possible...??
Angelo = TONY FEARON ????
He's Il Bomber Destro.
Quote from: Angelo on August 31, 2020, 10:34:36 AM
Is Messi a greater player than Suarez?
I really think that is dubious, nevermind to go at legends who played in a different generation that was crammed with world class players.
f**k off Angelo ;D ;D ;D
Now we know you are just taking the piss
Messi stays, the president is a goner 8)
'Messi has only won trophies in one county' soon wont be a valid argument for picking Ronaldo in this debate.
Add in the fact that he won a continental national trophy this summer too.
Quote from: toby47 on August 10, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
'Messi has only won trophies in one county' soon wont be a valid argument for picking Ronaldo in this debate.
Still valid as domestic trophy's with PSG don't really count for much.
Quote from: Mario on August 10, 2021, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: toby47 on August 10, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
'Messi has only won trophies in one county' soon wont be a valid argument for picking Ronaldo in this debate.
Still valid as domestic trophy's with PSG don't really count for much.
Really, Juventus were more dominant in their league when Ronaldo joined than PSG are in France. Didn't Juventus win 9 in a row last year?
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 10, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on August 10, 2021, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: toby47 on August 10, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
'Messi has only won trophies in one county' soon wont be a valid argument for picking Ronaldo in this debate.
Still valid as domestic trophy's with PSG don't really count for much.
Really, Juventus were more dominant in their league when Ronaldo joined than PSG are in France. Didn't Juventus win 9 in a row last year?
Correct
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 10, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on August 10, 2021, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: toby47 on August 10, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
'Messi has only won trophies in one county' soon wont be a valid argument for picking Ronaldo in this debate.
Still valid as domestic trophy's with PSG don't really count for much.
Really, Juventus were more dominant in their league when Ronaldo joined than PSG are in France. Didn't Juventus win 9 in a row last year?
Serie A is still much stronger than ligue 1 and ronaldo won the Ballon d'or, CL, and multiple PL at utd.
Quote from: Mario on August 10, 2021, 04:24:26 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 10, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on August 10, 2021, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: toby47 on August 10, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
'Messi has only won trophies in one county' soon wont be a valid argument for picking Ronaldo in this debate.
Still valid as domestic trophy's with PSG don't really count for much.
Really, Juventus were more dominant in their league when Ronaldo joined than PSG are in France. Didn't Juventus win 9 in a row last year?
Serie A is still much stronger than ligue 1 and ronaldo won the Ballon d'or, CL, and multiple PL at utd.
Obviously it isn't if a team can win 9 in a row.
Messi did all that too at a younger age.
Who made up the 'you have to do it, it more than one league' nonsense?
Quote from: gawa316 on August 10, 2021, 06:00:36 PM
Who made up the 'you have to do it, it more than one league' nonsense?
Ronaldo fanboys.
Because they know rightly that every possible argument points to Messi being superior. So they felt the need to shoehorn in something ridiculous because Messi is (until now) a one-club player.
What 'county' did Messi play in?
Why do footballers not live out their dreams? Why wouldn't Messi look at it and say I want to play for Utd or Liverpool or Accrington Stanley even for 100k a week and a cut of whatever merchandise I sell, I've already more money and more trophies/awards than I can shake a stick at...
Instead it's the obvious dull soulless move to PSG, nobody ever dreamt of playing for them....
Obviously Ronaldo would/will do the same in case anyone thinks it's a pop at Messi...
Quote from: Boycey on August 10, 2021, 06:49:25 PM
Why do footballers not live out their dreams? Why wouldn't Messi look at it and say I want to play for Utd or Liverpool or Accrington Stanley even for 100k a week and a cut of whatever merchandise I sell, I've already more money and more trophies/awards than I can shake a stick at...
Instead it's the obvious dull soulless move to PSG, nobody ever dreamt of playing for them....
Obviously Ronaldo would/will do the same in case anyone thinks it's a pop at Messi...
I was saying this today. When does he think he's made enough money? Surely he could have played for Barca for free if he didn't want to move. Moving to PSG is literally just a money move.
Quote from: JimStynes on August 10, 2021, 07:23:18 PM
Quote from: Boycey on August 10, 2021, 06:49:25 PM
Why do footballers not live out their dreams? Why wouldn't Messi look at it and say I want to play for Utd or Liverpool or Accrington Stanley even for 100k a week and a cut of whatever merchandise I sell, I've already more money and more trophies/awards than I can shake a stick at...
Instead it's the obvious dull soulless move to PSG, nobody ever dreamt of playing for them....
Obviously Ronaldo would/will do the same in case anyone thinks it's a pop at Messi...
I was saying this today. When does he think he's made enough money? Surely he could have played for Barca for free if he didn't want to move. Moving to PSG is literally just a money move.
I don't actually think he can play for Barcelona even for free? They not allowed register anyone? Same goes for the other free transfers they've made?
The main thrust of my argument is life's short, live a little even if ur a mega rich sportsman.... Or maybe especially if it a mega rich sportsman
Quote from: Boycey on August 10, 2021, 06:49:25 PM
Why do footballers not live out their dreams? Why wouldn't Messi look at it and say I want to play for Utd or Liverpool or Accrington Stanley even for 100k a week and a cut of whatever merchandise I sell, I've already more money and more trophies/awards than I can shake a stick at...
Instead it's the obvious dull soulless move to PSG, nobody ever dreamt of playing for them....
Obviously Ronaldo would/will do the same in case anyone thinks it's a pop at Messi...
Agreed...deep down I was holding a little candle that Messi was thinking about the 4-0 drubbing at Anfield and thinking, 'ye know what, I want a bit of that'...Andy Robbo probably scared him off though
Yeah I think Barca have to get wages down to 70%, so even if Messi played for free they still couldn't sign him up.
They are some mess and the wages they are shelling out for lads who they don't even want is nuts!
BUT, at the same time he did still take 555m over the last contract and he had them over a barrell. They could have just said no and he would have made the move then...
It's just so boring him going to PSG, I'd love if he went to the Premiership. If he is taking a pay cut even the likes of Liverpool, United or Chelsea would be more fun destinations.
It's mad to say who is better overall but I do think he gets an easier ride in terms of his image. Like he was a tax cheat and is as greedy and money-grabbing as any of them.
Like Messi is an awesome player but he is hard to warm to.
If he Messi deliver the Champions League it will be a massive failure.
Quote from: gawa316 on August 10, 2021, 06:00:36 PM
Who made up the 'you have to do it, it more than one league' nonsense?
Probably the same roots who made up the won that to be the best player ever you have to have won a world cup.
As for the French League versus the Italian, as mentioned, the Italian League is no stronger than the French and I don't see it as all down to money that Messi is going to PSG as they will have a far better chance of winning the CL than Barcelona would have.
Yes Messi was paid absurdly, but the fault is the club's, not his. They could have paid him and afforded him without f**king money up against the wall for the likes of Dembélé, Coutinho, Griezmann etc and paying absolutely everybody through the roof.
No, he couldn't have just played for free, for two reasons. Spanish law limits how much a new contract can be reduced by compared to the previous one and it wouldn't have got them within an ass's roar of the league requirements.
The "why couldn't be play for free" brigade really are taking the piss. What does Messi owe the club? He's more than paid back every investment and they've failed him, and the fans, abysmally since 2015. They have dug themselves into this preposterous mess, so why on earth should he throw money at an absolute black hole? They've now also absolutely fucked the fact that they have one of the best crops of young players in Europe again, all of whom could have played with and learned from him for years. Pedri, Ansu Fati, Ilaix, Araujo and Dest are up there with some of the best young players in the world in their position
Somewhat grotesquely, the best thing for all involved is that he leaves now, even if it doesn't (and it won't) fix all the financial issues and will leave them a mess on the pitch. He's the clear front runner for the Balon d'Or again, and the Copa America probably wrapped it up. Going to PSG is disappointing, as I don't think winning a CL with that squad would add anything to his CV, but realistically it was City or PSG, and I don't think City would have been any better.
All in all, a disgraceful situation and a genuinely shocking end to one of the greatest chapters in sporting history. It really shouldn't have been like this, but the fact that it is is down to years and years of mismanagement from successive Barca boards, not Messi.
Messi 7 -5 up in Ballon D'ors.
It's madness they have won 12 between them. Two phenomenon's.
The first year since 2010 Ronaldo didn't finish in the top 3 players. It's some consistency by the 2 players,Messi 2 years younger then Ronaldo he might win another.
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Lewandowski should have got it this year too probably, the only reason Messi got it was due to the Copa America.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Then it's ridiculous. Messi has been average for the second half of the year. 1 league goal in 16 league games! But he sells shirts so that's the main thing.
Salah deserves better than 7th.
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Then it's ridiculous. Messi has been average for the second half of the year. 1 league goal in 16 league games! But he sells shirts so that's the main thing.
Salah deserves better than 7th.
So how is the voting done? Salah is in the 3 if not higher
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 30, 2021, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Then it's ridiculous. Messi has been average for the second half of the year. 1 league goal in 16 league games! But he sells shirts so that's the main thing.
Salah deserves better than 7th.
So how is the voting done? Salah is in the 3 if not higher
Journalists vote on it I think. Seems to be a similar scenario for when Giggs won POTY - more recognition of him finally winning a trophy for Argentina as opposed to being the best player in the world in 2021.
Salah been the best player in the world since the new season started for sure and should have been higher. Was Messi even that great at Copa? Messi's last 2 have been very iffy, Van Dijk or one of the Liverpool lads should have got it in 2019 for sure.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 10:38:18 AM
Salah been the best player in the world since the new season started for sure and should have been higher. Was Messi even that great at Copa? Messi's last 2 have been very iffy, Van Dijk or one of the Liverpool lads should have got it in 2019 for sure.
Both Haaland and Lewandowski have been as good as Salah since the season started. Haaland and Salah should have been up higher in the rankings.
Quote from: Mike Tyson on November 30, 2021, 10:30:38 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 30, 2021, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Then it's ridiculous. Messi has been average for the second half of the year. 1 league goal in 16 league games! But he sells shirts so that's the main thing.
Salah deserves better than 7th.
So how is the voting done? Salah is in the 3 if not higher
Journalists vote on it I think. Seems to be a similar scenario for when Giggs won POTY - more recognition of him finally winning a trophy for Argentina as opposed to being the best player in the world in 2021.
I doubt very much if very many people outside of football nerds can definitively state who was the best player over 2021. In any case even if you watched every single match, the opinion is still subjective and depends on how you view football. However plenty seem to want to offer an opinion irrespective of how many games they have actually watched.
If you are basing it purely on goalscoring statistics without viewing the actual matches, then Lewandowski is the clear winner for the last calendar year but then you have to consider a whole range of factors such as his role in the team, level of opposition, contribution to team success, general influence on matches etc. Aesthetically Lewandowski is definitely not the most exciting player since he is simply an out and out finisher whereas Messi is an all round wizard and I imagine that is probably what has been the single biggest factor in him winning the award again together with the weight often placed on international tournaments.
Quote from: yellowcard on November 30, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on November 30, 2021, 10:30:38 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 30, 2021, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Then it's ridiculous. Messi has been average for the second half of the year. 1 league goal in 16 league games! But he sells shirts so that's the main thing.
Salah deserves better than 7th.
So how is the voting done? Salah is in the 3 if not higher
Journalists vote on it I think. Seems to be a similar scenario for when Giggs won POTY - more recognition of him finally winning a trophy for Argentina as opposed to being the best player in the world in 2021.
I doubt very much if very many people outside of football nerds can definitively state who was the best player over 2021. In any case even if you watched every single match, the opinion is still subjective and depends on how you view football. However plenty seem to want to offer an opinion irrespective of how many games they have actually watched.
If you are basing it purely on goalscoring statistics without viewing the actual matches, then Lewandowski is the clear winner for the last calendar year but then you have to consider a whole range of factors such as his role in the team, level of opposition, contribution to team success, general influence on matches etc. Aesthetically Lewandowski is definitely not the most exciting player since he is simply an out and out finisher whereas Messi is an all round wizard and I imagine that is probably what has been the single biggest factor in him winning the award again together with the weight often placed on international tournaments.
This will always be the case when trying to compare individual performers in a team sport. It should be viewed as no more than a novelty award - just like all-stars in GAA. It's just people's opinions. In the past few years it seems to have gained more and more column inches, and I personally don't understand why. But at least for Ballon d'Or all the best players can be assessed on a relatively equal footing, as they all play for top teams.
Would the opinions not be better from your peers than Journo's?
Quote from: yellowcard on November 30, 2021, 10:41:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Tyson on November 30, 2021, 10:30:38 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 30, 2021, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 10:08:39 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 30, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 30, 2021, 09:10:52 AM
Is this based on last season or the year 2021?
The calendar year. Lewandowski was robbed for 2020 since they cancelled it.
Then it's ridiculous. Messi has been average for the second half of the year. 1 league goal in 16 league games! But he sells shirts so that's the main thing.
Salah deserves better than 7th.
So how is the voting done? Salah is in the 3 if not higher
Journalists vote on it I think. Seems to be a similar scenario for when Giggs won POTY - more recognition of him finally winning a trophy for Argentina as opposed to being the best player in the world in 2021.
I doubt very much if very many people outside of football nerds can definitively state who was the best player over 2021. In any case even if you watched every single match, the opinion is still subjective and depends on how you view football. However plenty seem to want to offer an opinion irrespective of how many games they have actually watched.
If you are basing it purely on goalscoring statistics without viewing the actual matches, then Lewandowski is the clear winner for the last calendar year but then you have to consider a whole range of factors such as his role in the team, level of opposition, contribution to team success, general influence on matches etc. Aesthetically Lewandowski is definitely not the most exciting player since he is simply an out and out finisher whereas Messi is an all round wizard and I imagine that is probably what has been the single biggest factor in him winning the award again together with the weight often placed on international tournaments.
I would wager that it's the latter of your points which won him the award and the fact that he is Messi and a media darling, not the fact he was the best player in the world the last year. Watched him in the Champions League & the big games in Spain and he was nothing special, admittedly a small sample size! Salah on the other hand has been mesmerizing to watch in nearly every game he has played.
As you point out its all subjective. Maybe the impossibly high standards he has set previous is what most people are judging him against and pre-2008 this season would have been seen as a wonder season. For all that, Nedved winning it over Henry in 2003 was a laugh as was Modric 2018 so best not to take these things too seriously and judge a player on them.
This could be the last Ballon D'or Messi or Ronaldo wins. Could well be the end of an era.
Haaland/Salah/Haaland/Mbappe & Lewandowski will be the favourites outside of Messi/Ronaldo to win one.
Debate looks to be settled?
Quote from: toby47 on December 14, 2022, 09:20:15 AM
Debate looks to be settled?
To be fair, they are two separate players with totally different skill sets, both have amazing stats and its all down to preference
Totally different footballers with almost entirely different skill sets apart from the goalscoring numbers. Messi the ultimate technician who was capable of doing things with a football that no other player of his era could accomplish. Equally creative as he was at finishing goals and won the trophies to match. Ronaldo probably the best header of a ball and possibly the best finisher in front of goal ever seen. Athletically strong and transformed his game from a tricky winger into a supreme box player. Won the trophies to match. Both players also had remarkable consistency and longevity and rarely got injured.
Aesthetically I don't think anyone could argue that Messi was the superior player and that is what settles it for me. He could do things with a football that we may not see again for a long time. Ronaldos numbers were unbelievable and he was very good at almost every facet of the game but just not in a jaw dropping way like Messi. The last 3 weeks are a subset of a handful of matches and shouldn't sway the argument either way but Messi has surprised me with the level of his performance at this stage of his career. The fact that he is still the standout player of this world cup does highlight the lack of individual flair that exists below the surface though. You can talk about players like Haaland, Lewandowski, Salah, Mbappe, Neymar etc but they look like mere mortals when placed alongside Messi.
Who cares.
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 14, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Who cares.
Messi is the GOAT. Penaldo has been exposed as a FRAUD and a tinpot player.
Messi is levels.
/sarcasm
In all seriousness isn't this a debate for 10 year old boys on Twitter?
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 14, 2022, 10:26:43 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 14, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Who cares.
Messi is the GOAT. Penaldo has been exposed as a FRAUD and a tinpot player.
Messi is levels.
/sarcasm
In all seriousness isn't this a debate for 10 year old boys on Twitter?
Of course it is. Out on their own in terms of what they've achieved. Likes of Maradonna, Brazil Ronaldo, Best and Ronaldinho probably had as much talent and at their absolute best were comparable to Messi and Ronaldo but no one else has been consistently as good for 15 plus years.
Quote from: toby47 on December 14, 2022, 09:20:15 AM
Debate looks to be settled?
There was never one in the first place.
Like arguing over Superman being better than Ironman ;D
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 14, 2022, 10:56:02 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 14, 2022, 10:26:43 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 14, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Who cares.
Messi is the GOAT. Penaldo has been exposed as a FRAUD and a tinpot player.
Messi is levels.
/sarcasm
In all seriousness isn't this a debate for 10 year old boys on Twitter?
Of course it is. Out on their own in terms of what they've achieved. Likes of Maradonna, Brazil Ronaldo, Best and Ronaldinho probably had as much talent and at their absolute best were comparable to Messi and Ronaldo but no one else has been consistently as good for 15 plus years.
At their absolute best, I'd still go with Maradona, but overall I think Messi has earned the title. And if he wins the World Cup then it's game over. Ronaldo has worked hard and had a great career, but he's not on the Messi / Maradona shelf.
Maradona. Close thread.
Sick listening to all the shite talk about these pair over the years. Neither of them could lace Zidane's boots imo.
Serious Maradona nostalgia! He didn't play anywhere near as long as Messi, his stats are nowhere near as impressive as Messi or Ronaldo, was caught on drugs and all sorts and played for some seriously crap teams. Although his peak was something else and he is the loveable rogue type character but for me he's 3rd after Messi and Ronaldo. Messi's actually shown a bit of a nasty streak in him during this tournament which is great to see!
Zidane is the level below along with the likes of the Real Ronaldo.
He was coked up to the eyeballs half the time though ;D
I imagine he was as gifted but you watch that documentary and he had such a mad life I doubt he could consistently be the best player in the world.
For the record i couldn't care less but i reckon CR7's antics the last while back will almost certainly drop him down people's pecking order.
In the 2006 World Cup Zidane was on a different level, went and fucked it up with a moment of madness in the final then
Quote from: illdecide on December 14, 2022, 04:19:16 PM
For the record i couldn't care less but i reckon CR7's antics the last while back will almost certainly drop him down people's pecking order.
But Messi's antics are ok?
Depends the age of posters on here. I notice the majority don't seem to remember the outlawing of tackling from behind which changed the sport from the defender to forwards advantage. I still have Maradona over either. Both played for strong club teams with alot great players round them. Maradona hadn't much with him at Napoli but done rightly. I have messi slightly ahead of Ronaldo but not by a lot.
We go for superman over Ironman too as discussed earlier. lol.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2022, 05:15:58 PM
Depends the age of posters on here. I notice the majority don't seem to remember the outlawing of tackling from behind which changed the sport from the defender to forwards advantage. I still have Maradona over either. Both played for strong club teams with alot great players round them. Maradona hadn't much with him at Napoli but done rightly. I have messi slightly ahead of Ronaldo but not by a lot.
He only scored about 100 goals for Napoli. And his career was down the pan after that. The nostalgia of Maradona definitely sways people. If it was a favourite player then I'd maybe have the likes of him and Ronaldinho but for best it has to be Messi and Ronaldo. The goals they've scored in the best competitions in the world is ridiculous. Ronaldo's is even more impressive considering he started as a winger and scored in all leagues. It'll be 10 and 20 years after they are retired that people will really appreciate them!
Is Haaland going to blow these boys' numbers out of the water? Remember reading a stat about the number of goals he has until now compared to what Messi and Ronaldo have, and it was ridiculous
couple reasons why i always find these "who was better" debates pointless
- back in the day there was far less footie on tv so how much of maradona, cryuff and the likes did people really see whereas nowadays its near every week
- flip side is likes of messi, ronaldos teams so much stronger in depth in comparison to barca/real teams back in the day so their stats imo are skewed. Impressive nonetheless.
Similar as to why city/pool teams are breaking points records steady now, and haalamd gonna break scorin records. The strong are v much stronger
Having said that its deffo Messi >>>> Ronaldo 😉😉
The wee mans definitely the best ive ever seen with the caveat that in comparison i havent watched as much of maradona pele etc etc
People are entitled to disagree of course but I personally find it bizarre there is even a debate on it as Messi is just the most incredible player of this generation and as brilliant a player as Ronaldo is, no one is better than Messi and way coaching and football is going in general I don't think there will ever be a better player than him.
Quote from: gawa316 on December 14, 2022, 06:01:58 PM
Is Haaland going to blow these boys' numbers out of the water? Remember reading a stat about the number of goals he has until now compared to what Messi and Ronaldo have, and it was ridiculous
Remember seeing that he could score 35 a year for 15 years and still not get close. One big thing Messi and Ronaldo had is that they were very rarely injured, Haaland looks fairly injury prone
Between them they have won 12 ballons d'or
Zidane and Cruyff combined won 4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d%27Or
Just 2 unbelievable talents. Best not to compare but just enjoy. Ronaldo probably at the end of a great career messi in the twilight.
I don't even think either are the best footballer of the past 20 years. It's all subjective mind and will never be settled.
Quote from: David McKeown on December 14, 2022, 10:39:33 PM
I don't even think either are the best footballer of the past 20 years. It's all subjective mind and will never be settled.
Depends what criteria you use I suppose. If Ronaldinho had the mentality of Ronaldo he'd have been the best ever without a doubt.
Quote from: David McKeown on December 14, 2022, 10:39:33 PM
I don't even think either are the best footballer of the past 20 years. It's all subjective mind and will never be settled.
you can't say that without putting forward who you believe is better!
Quote from: Never beat the deeler on December 14, 2022, 11:58:37 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on December 14, 2022, 10:39:33 PM
I don't even think either are the best footballer of the past 20 years. It's all subjective mind and will never be settled.
you can't say that without putting forward who you believe is better!
Well it doesn't really matter but I always felt Xavi was the best footballer of the last 20 years because I feel he changed the game more than any other. I'm sure not many will agree but that's my point about it being subjective and not capable of being settled.
Xavi better than Messi. f**k me I've heard it all now
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 15, 2022, 12:22:22 AM
Xavi better than Messi. f**k me I've heard it all now
Different positions so pointless.
Xavi redefined the holding midfield role. Messi is just the best in as established position.
The argument is was Xavi better than his peers like Scholes or even Zidane. Not Messi
Messi won 4 Champions League with Barcelona. Ronaldo won 6 with Real AFAIK.
That's 10 plus there were 2 bonus Ballons.
The 2 were undoubtedly talented but they also surfed a structural wave of concentrated sporting power which did not exist in the 70s-90s and is replicated in Man City, PSG , Limerick hurlers and the Dub 6 in a row.
Starring Mayo as Atletico Madrid.
Messi and Ronaldo had the best access but that doesn't mean they are better than someone who played in a different system.
These conditions where 2 teams dominate over 15 years may not be repeated.
And poor Ronaldo really struggles with the dying of the light.
It's like you're screaming,
And no one can hear.
You almost feel ashamed
That someone could be that important,
That without them, you feel like nothing.
No one will ever understand how much it hurts.
You feel hopeless, like nothing can save you.
And when it's over, and it's gone,
You almost wish that you could have all that bad stuff back,
So that you could have the good.
https://youtu.be/tg00YEETFzg
Quote from: JimStynes on December 14, 2022, 05:51:17 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2022, 05:15:58 PM
Depends the age of posters on here. I notice the majority don't seem to remember the outlawing of tackling from behind which changed the sport from the defender to forwards advantage. I still have Maradona over either. Both played for strong club teams with alot great players round them. Maradona hadn't much with him at Napoli but done rightly. I have messi slightly ahead of Ronaldo but not by a lot.
He only scored about 100 goals for Napoli. And his career was down the pan after that. The nostalgia of Maradona definitely sways people. If it was a favourite player then I'd maybe have the likes of him and Ronaldinho but for best it has to be Messi and Ronaldo. The goals they've scored in the best competitions in the world is ridiculous. Ronaldo's is even more impressive considering he started as a winger and scored in all leagues. It'll be 10 and 20 years after they are retired that people will really appreciate them!
Maradona played at a time when defenders got away with a lot more and there were fewer goals scored overall especially in Italy. For me he is still the best. Messi and Ronaldo are both the best of the current generation and will go down as all time greats. Their goalscoring records are incredible. Xavi was a great player, as was iniesta alongside him but they're not in the top echelons like Pele, Cruyff, Best, Zidane, Maradona, the 2 Ronaldos, Jimmy Johnstone and Messi.
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2022, 05:12:27 AM
Messi won 4 Champions League with Barcelona. Ronaldo won 6 with Real AFAIK.
That's 10 plus there were 2 bonus Ballons.
The 2 were undoubtedly talented but they also surfed a structural wave of concentrated sporting power which did not exist in the 70s-90s and is replicated in Man City, PSG , Limerick hurlers and the Dub 6 in a row.
Starring Mayo as Atletico Madrid.
Messi and Ronaldo had the best access but that doesn't mean they are better than someone who played in a different system.
These conditions where 2 teams dominate over 15 years may not be repeated.
And poor Ronaldo really struggles with the dying of the light.
It's like you're screaming,
And no one can hear.
You almost feel ashamed
That someone could be that important,
That without them, you feel like nothing.
No one will ever understand how much it hurts.
You feel hopeless, like nothing can save you.
And when it's over, and it's gone,
You almost wish that you could have all that bad stuff back,
So that you could have the good.
https://youtu.be/tg00YEETFzg
Think Ronaldo got 1 at United where he was instrumental obviously, then did 4 in 5 years with Madrid where he scored a ridiculous amount. Mess has one with Barca from years ago where he didn't really feature, then the 2 where they beat United in finals where he was absolutely superb and then another one with Neymar and Suarez, 2015 maybe where again he was excellent. No doubt both benefitted hugely from brilliant supporting casts- Rooney, Tevez, Eto, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Benzema etc etc.
Ronaldo became the player he was mainly based on his athleticism, pure power. Messi was far more naturally skilled.
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2022, 07:30:42 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2022, 05:12:27 AM
Messi won 4 Champions League with Barcelona. Ronaldo won 6 with Real AFAIK.
That's 10 plus there were 2 bonus Ballons.
The 2 were undoubtedly talented but they also surfed a structural wave of concentrated sporting power which did not exist in the 70s-90s and is replicated in Man City, PSG , Limerick hurlers and the Dub 6 in a row.
Starring Mayo as Atletico Madrid.
Messi and Ronaldo had the best access but that doesn't mean they are better than someone who played in a different system.
These conditions where 2 teams dominate over 15 years may not be repeated.
And poor Ronaldo really struggles with the dying of the light.
It's like you're screaming,
And no one can hear.
You almost feel ashamed
That someone could be that important,
That without them, you feel like nothing.
No one will ever understand how much it hurts.
You feel hopeless, like nothing can save you.
And when it's over, and it's gone,
You almost wish that you could have all that bad stuff back,
So that you could have the good.
https://youtu.be/tg00YEETFzg
Think Ronaldo got 1 at United where he was instrumental obviously, then did 4 in 5 years with Madrid where he scored a ridiculous amount. Mess has one with Barca from years ago where he didn't really feature, then the 2 where they beat United in finals where he was absolutely superb and then another one with Neymar and Suarez, 2015 maybe where again he was excellent. No doubt both benefitted hugely from brilliant supporting casts- Rooney, Tevez, Eto, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Benzema etc etc.
Messi featured heavily in 2006 but pulled his hamstring before the final against arsenal
Quote from: JimStynes on December 14, 2022, 03:57:58 PM
Serious Maradona nostalgia! He didn't play anywhere near as long as Messi, his stats are nowhere near as impressive as Messi or Ronaldo, was caught on drugs and all sorts and played for some seriously crap teams. Although his peak was something else and he is the loveable rogue type character but for me he's 3rd after Messi and Ronaldo. Messi's actually shown a bit of a nasty streak in him during this tournament which is great to see!
Zidane is the level below along with the likes of the Real Ronaldo.
I would say if R9 didnt suffer the injuries he did there would be no debate. He had absolutely everything
Quote from: pbat on December 15, 2022, 07:55:37 AM
Ronaldo became the player he was mainly based on his athleticism, pure power. Messi was far more naturally skilled.
this is why I think Messi is better
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 15, 2022, 12:32:00 PM
Quote from: pbat on December 15, 2022, 07:55:37 AM
Ronaldo became the player he was mainly based on his athleticism, pure power. Messi was far more naturally skilled.
this is why I think Messi is better
So it would be fair to say that they are 2 different players with amazing stats and records, so personal choice is ok.
Personally I love how messi plays, but I loved Ronaldo's drive.. As David said earlier he's into the midfield players and what they did for the team, they load the bullets for these guys, they are the ones I preferred watching
Quote from: pbat on December 15, 2022, 07:55:37 AM
Ronaldo became the player he was mainly based on his athleticism, pure power. Messi was far more naturally skilled.
That argument does both players injustice. Young Ronaldo was absolutely electric to watch and had natural ability to burn.
Salah is better than both.
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 15, 2022, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on December 14, 2022, 03:57:58 PM
Serious Maradona nostalgia! He didn't play anywhere near as long as Messi, his stats are nowhere near as impressive as Messi or Ronaldo, was caught on drugs and all sorts and played for some seriously crap teams. Although his peak was something else and he is the loveable rogue type character but for me he's 3rd after Messi and Ronaldo. Messi's actually shown a bit of a nasty streak in him during this tournament which is great to see!
Zidane is the level below along with the likes of the Real Ronaldo.
I would say if R9 didnt suffer the injuries he did there would be no debate. He had absolutely everything
Yeah he was unreal.
Neither Ronny nor Messi have won the World Cup as at date of posting.
This is a pointless argument, but predictable. Pele and Maradona's achievements being downplayed and dismissed by so many due to recency bias and simple unfamiliarity.
I'm not old enough to have seen Pele play either, but the contemporary accounts you read can't just be dismissed out of hand.
Brazil 1970 are widely held to be one of the, if not THE, greatest teams ever, yet their coach said that if asked who his best player in every position was, he would have to say Pele. The man had every skill in the book, supreme athleticism, vision and intelligence, and basically did things on the field that no one had ever done before.
Maradona almost single handedly won a f**king World Cup, and carried a previously unsuccessful Napoli club to two Scudettos, in the era of Sacchi's generational Milan team.
40 years from now, the achievements of Messi will be similarly dismissed in favour of some star from that time.
Quote from: J70 on December 15, 2022, 01:15:32 PM
This is a pointless argument, but predictable. Pele and Maradona's achievements being downplayed and dismissed by so many due to recency bias and simple unfamiliarity.
I'm not old enough to have seen Pele play either, but the contemporary accounts you read can't just be dismissed out of hand.
Brazil 1970 are widely held to be one of the, if not THE, greatest teams ever, yet their coach said that if asked who his best player in every position was, he would have to say Pele. The man had every skill in the book, supreme athleticism, vision and intelligence, and basically did things on the field that no one had ever done before.
Maradona almost single handedly won a f**king World Cup, and carried a previously unsuccessful Napoli club to two Scudettos, in the era of Sacchi's generational Milan team.
40 years from now, the achievements of Messi will be similarly dismissed in favour of some star from that time.
It's nearly impossible to compare tbh. Nostalgia comes into it too when looking back. Look at the state of the pitches Pele, Best, Maradona had to play on, with heavy balls and defenders out to snap legs.
Every era is different too. It's the same in GAA. You can't say a midfielder from the 80s was better than one now or vice versa when it comes to "best ever" because it's a different game. Things like the backpass, tackle from behind and stuff like that in soccer make it different now too.
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2022, 02:15:39 PM
Every era is different too. It's the same in GAA. You can't say a midfielder from the 80s was better than one now or vice versa when it comes to "best ever" because it's a different game. Things like the backpass, tackle from behind and stuff like that in soccer make it different now too.
Yeah and add in the fact that George Best was on the drink half the time and Maradona was coked off his head. They weren't exactly looking after themselves like pro athletes the way Messi and Ronaldo have.
Quality of pitches big factor too
We'll go round in circles as people generally don't budge in their views on the greatest. Messi is up there with Pele and Maradona and above Cruyff and Zidanne imo. But Pele or Maradona for me. Was too young during Pele's time and ironically any clips we tend to see now are of the goals he missed! Though they were great misses.
Maradona dragged teams along with him and was able to change the direction and momentum of a game. My one question over Messi is his ability to do this. I haven't seen much evidence of this in big games for Barca or Argentina and in the recent match against the Dutch I thought it was disappointing he couldn't get on the ball and get his side back into it when the Dutch turned the heat up. That might sound a bit picky to some but if we're labelling a player as the best ever then the bar is set pretty high.
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2022, 02:15:39 PM
Every era is different too. It's the same in GAA. You can't say a midfielder from the 80s was better than one now or vice versa when it comes to "best ever" because it's a different game. Things like the backpass, tackle from behind and stuff like that in soccer make it different now too.
Sorry you're wrong. Michael Murphy was the best ever. We've all agreed. Unrivalled.
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2022, 02:20:02 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2022, 02:15:39 PM
Every era is different too. It's the same in GAA. You can't say a midfielder from the 80s was better than one now or vice versa when it comes to "best ever" because it's a different game. Things like the backpass, tackle from behind and stuff like that in soccer make it different now too.
Yeah and add in the fact that George Best was on the drink half the time and Maradona was coked off his head. They weren't exactly looking after themselves like pro athletes the way Messi and Ronaldo have.
You would need to at Paddy McCourt to the conversation as well then
Love watching his greatest goals.
The reason I suggested Xavi is that for me he changed the way football is played. Messi and Ronaldo whilst very very good. I don't think they entirely changed the game. The game now is far more possession and passing based than it was pre Xavi. Xavi is the main reason for that.
His stats are equally if not more remarkable than Messi or Ronaldos. For example. In the history of the World Cup before Xavi retired only two other players had recorded 100+ successful passes in a single game. Xavi did it 4 times in his first seven matches. Now at this World Cup 10 players managed it in the first round of matches alone.
About 10 years ago Xavi played for 67 minutes in a La Liga game against Levante. In that game Xavi recorded more touches, more passes and more time in possession than the Levante did in 90 minutes.
Of course none of this means I'm correct. But I think it does show how pointless the debate is.
Quote from: David McKeown on December 15, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
The reason I suggested Xavi is that for me he changed the way football is played. Messi and Ronaldo whilst very very good. I don't think they entirely changed the game. The game now is far more possession and passing based than it was pre Xavi. Xavi is the main reason for that.
His stats are equally if not more remarkable than Messi or Ronaldos. For example. In the history of the World Cup before Xavi retired only two other players had recorded 100+ successful passes in a single game. Xavi did it 4 times in his first seven matches. Now at this World Cup 10 players managed it in the first round of matches alone.
About 10 years ago Xavi played for 67 minutes in a La Liga game against Levante. In that game Xavi recorded more touches, more passes and more time in possession than the Levante did in 90 minutes.
Of course none of this means I'm correct. But I think it does show how pointless the debate is.
Kinda like Steph Curry...he has changed the NBA but doubt he will ever be in the Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Lebron etc. conversation...(there is no conversation it's MJ btw).
Also Brian Dooher.
Pele
Maradona
Messi
Cruyff
Best
Ronaldo 7
others...
Quote from: Dire Ear on December 15, 2022, 07:15:18 PM
Pele
Maradona
Messi
Cruyff
Best
Ronaldo 7
others...
Zidane
Ronaldhino
Ronaldo the original
Would any English players be in the debate?
Quote from: 03,05,08 on December 15, 2022, 07:58:37 PM
Would any English players be in the debate?
Yeah... Gary Lineker said it was Maradona
Quote from: David McKeown on December 15, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
The reason I suggested Xavi is that for me he changed the way football is played. Messi and Ronaldo whilst very very good. I don't think they entirely changed the game. The game now is far more possession and passing based than it was pre Xavi. Xavi is the main reason for that.
His stats are equally if not more remarkable than Messi or Ronaldos. For example. In the history of the World Cup before Xavi retired only two other players had recorded 100+ successful passes in a single game. Xavi did it 4 times in his first seven matches. Now at this World Cup 10 players managed it in the first round of matches alone.
About 10 years ago Xavi played for 67 minutes in a La Liga game against Levante. In that game Xavi recorded more touches, more passes and more time in possession than the Levante did in 90 minutes.
Of course none of this means I'm correct. But I think it does show how pointless the debate is.
I don't say this to dismiss the quality of Xavi, as he is a true great of the game, but messi could have played that role just as well. Similar to the pele story, Pep said messi was the best player barca had in nearly every position. The talent he has your obviously going to play him where he can do the most damge. I actually think what Greizman is doing in the role for France in this tournament exposes the flexibility of these world class technically gifted players that you don't normally get to see. I remember Weah slotting into centre half at periods for milan when they had injuries, and he looked like a world class centre half is another example. Messi is just the pinnacle for me simply because of the sustained period he has operated at such a level. My father is 82, and he said messi is the greatest player he has seen since pele, but still gave the nod to Pele. Said maradonna, best and few others were probably technically as good, but didn't sustain that level for as long. R9 was probably the player I was most gobsmacked by, simply unstoppable for 5 or 6 years.
Quote from: HiMucker on December 15, 2022, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on December 15, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
The reason I suggested Xavi is that for me he changed the way football is played. Messi and Ronaldo whilst very very good. I don't think they entirely changed the game. The game now is far more possession and passing based than it was pre Xavi. Xavi is the main reason for that.
His stats are equally if not more remarkable than Messi or Ronaldos. For example. In the history of the World Cup before Xavi retired only two other players had recorded 100+ successful passes in a single game. Xavi did it 4 times in his first seven matches. Now at this World Cup 10 players managed it in the first round of matches alone.
About 10 years ago Xavi played for 67 minutes in a La Liga game against Levante. In that game Xavi recorded more touches, more passes and more time in possession than the Levante did in 90 minutes.
Of course none of this means I'm correct. But I think it does show how pointless the debate is.
I don't say this to dismiss the quality of Xavi, as he is a true great of the game, but messi could have played that role just as well. Similar to the pele story, Pep said messi was the best player barca had in nearly every position. The talent he has your obviously going to play him where he can do the most damge. I actually think what Greizman is doing in the role for France in this tournament exposes the flexibility of these world class technically gifted players that you don't normally get to see. I remember Weah slotting into centre half at periods for milan when they had injuries, and he looked like a world class centre half is another example. Messi is just the pinnacle for me simply because of the sustained period he has operated at such a level. My father is 82, and he said messi is the greatest player he has seen since pele, but still gave the nod to Pele. Said maradonna, best and few others were probably technically as good, but didn't sustain that level for as long. R9 was probably the player I was most gobsmacked by, simply unstoppable for 5 or 6 years.
Does that not cut both ways. Gundugonan was an amazing false 9 for City a few seasons ago for example. I'm not dismissing Messi or Ronaldo either but I put more weight on what Xavi demonstrated he could do. To me it's more impressive albeit only slightly than Messi or Ronaldo
Quote from: 03,05,08 on December 15, 2022, 07:58:37 PM
Would any English players be in the debate?
1966 World Cup winners Bobby Moore, Gordon Banks, Bobby Charlton etc would be.
Quote from: Blowitupref on December 15, 2022, 09:30:28 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on December 15, 2022, 07:58:37 PM
Would any English players be in the debate?
1966 World Cup winners Bobby Moore, Gordon Banks, Bobby Charlton etc would be.
Which brings me back round to my key point in this discussion.
When I was growing up I was left under no illusion that Finney, Matthews, Lofthouse, Wright, Moore, Charlton, Banks, etc were extraordinary, exceptional players. Everyone agreed. There was so little coverage of them, and most of the coverage of them was playing FA Cup matches against substandard opponents on rubbish pitches, so why would anyone disagree?
My best guess is that none of them would have laced Wayne Rooney's boots. Now he was a talent. But as he was judged by Messi and Ronaldos' standards, Rooney's career is often painted as unfulfilled.
Quote from: thewobbler on December 15, 2022, 09:59:31 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on December 15, 2022, 09:30:28 PM
Quote from: 03,05,08 on December 15, 2022, 07:58:37 PM
Would any English players be in the debate?
1966 World Cup winners Bobby Moore, Gordon Banks, Bobby Charlton etc would be.
Which brings me back round to my key point in this discussion.
When I was growing up I was left under no illusion that Finney, Matthews, Lofthouse, Wright, Moore, Charlton, Banks, etc were extraordinary, exceptional players. Everyone agreed. There was so little coverage of them, and most of the coverage of them was playing FA Cup matches against substandard opponents on rubbish pitches, so why would anyone disagree?
My best guess is that none of them would have laced Wayne Rooney's boots. Now he was a talent. But as he was judged by Messi and Ronaldos' standards, Rooney's career is often painted as unfulfilled.
Probably need to stop guessing if that's your best effort.
Quote from: David McKeown on December 15, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
The reason I suggested Xavi is that for me he changed the way football is played. Messi and Ronaldo whilst very very good. I don't think they entirely changed the game. The game now is far more possession and passing based than it was pre Xavi. Xavi is the main reason for that.
His stats are equally if not more remarkable than Messi or Ronaldos. For example. In the history of the World Cup before Xavi retired only two other players had recorded 100+ successful passes in a single game. Xavi did it 4 times in his first seven matches. Now at this World Cup 10 players managed it in the first round of matches alone.
About 10 years ago Xavi played for 67 minutes in a La Liga game against Levante. In that game Xavi recorded more touches, more passes and more time in possession than the Levante did in 90 minutes.
Of course none of this means I'm correct. But I think it does show how pointless the debate is.
Jesus those are wild stats. Like you say it's all down to preference, always felt that great Spain team weren't great to watch a lot of the time. No doubt Xavi was a class act though!
Zico, now there was a good player, played in a team with everything round him except a keeper and central defender. Still think Brazil 82 and, Hungary were better than many a team to win the world cup. Only stand out world cup winners of recent yrs is, Brazil 2002, then am bck the whole way to 1970 for the nxt good one..France twice('18'98), Spain '10, decent. 2 German teams functional (' 14,'90.) the current French team looks, Functional, missing few, good players. Argentina maybe a bit more to them, but again there lost to Saudi Arabia.
Plenty of random names flying about for the sake of it now for laughable reasons, it's getting out of hand. It's pretty clear and obvious it's Messi.
Surprised Redondo or even Leyton Hewitt have not got a mention
If you'd all get past the idea that the best player needs to be an attacker, you'd see it's very obviously a toss-up between Maldini and McGrath.
With honorable mention to Zanetti.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2022, 12:38:07 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 15, 2022, 12:32:00 PM
Quote from: pbat on December 15, 2022, 07:55:37 AM
Ronaldo became the player he was mainly based on his athleticism, pure power. Messi was far more naturally skilled.
this is why I think Messi is better
So it would be fair to say that they are 2 different players with amazing stats and records, so personal choice is ok.
Personally I love how messi plays, but I loved Ronaldo's drive.. As David said earlier he's into the midfield players and what they did for the team, they load the bullets for these guys, they are the ones I preferred watching
Exactly, its all opinion and thinking one is better does not mean you think the other is a bad player
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on December 16, 2022, 12:06:03 AM
If you'd all get past the idea that the best player needs to be an attacker, you'd see it's very obviously a toss-up between Maldini and McGrath.
With honorable mention to Zanetti.
Throw Baresi in there also
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 16, 2022, 07:10:09 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on December 16, 2022, 12:06:03 AM
If you'd all get past the idea that the best player needs to be an attacker, you'd see it's very obviously a toss-up between Maldini and McGrath.
With honorable mention to Zanetti.
Throw Baresi in there also
And Gary Breen.
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2022, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on December 15, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
The reason I suggested Xavi is that for me he changed the way football is played. Messi and Ronaldo whilst very very good. I don't think they entirely changed the game. The game now is far more possession and passing based than it was pre Xavi. Xavi is the main reason for that.
His stats are equally if not more remarkable than Messi or Ronaldos. For example. In the history of the World Cup before Xavi retired only two other players had recorded 100+ successful passes in a single game. Xavi did it 4 times in his first seven matches. Now at this World Cup 10 players managed it in the first round of matches alone.
About 10 years ago Xavi played for 67 minutes in a La Liga game against Levante. In that game Xavi recorded more touches, more passes and more time in possession than the Levante did in 90 minutes.
Of course none of this means I'm correct. But I think it does show how pointless the debate is.
Jesus those are wild stats. Like you say it's all down to preference, always felt that great Spain team weren't great to watch a lot of the time. No doubt Xavi was a class act though!
Xavi may have changed how the game is played, did he change it for the good though.
Did xavi really change the game? Giving him a bit too much credit here.
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 16, 2022, 09:43:48 AM
Did xavi really change the game? Giving him a bit too much credit here.
Are we talking about Xavi, or he Welsh Xavi here?
https://youtu.be/cWG2dS9iVpo (https://youtu.be/cWG2dS9iVpo)
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 16, 2022, 09:43:48 AM
Did xavi really change the game? Giving him a bit too much credit here.
I don't think we are. The game is completely different now to what it was even 20 years ago. Was Xavi the only one responsible for that? Absolutely not but for me he was the talisman. His stats were revolutionary and players now are starting to catch up.
Quote from: David McKeown on December 16, 2022, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 16, 2022, 09:43:48 AM
Did xavi really change the game? Giving him a bit too much credit here.
I don't think we are. The game is completely different now to what it was even 20 years ago. Was Xavi the only one responsible for that? Absolutely not but for me he was the talisman. His stats were revolutionary and players now are starting to catch up.
How much of that was down to Pep's coaching? Or going further back, Cryuff's?
Can't believe we got to 30 pages and no one has mentioned Larry Reilly...
Quote from: illdecide on December 16, 2022, 11:10:42 AM
Can't believe we got to 30 pages and no one has mentioned Larry Reilly...
Can close thread now.
No conversation without mentioning Peter Canavan is valid. Dont care what the sport is.
Quote from: rrhf on December 16, 2022, 05:22:17 PM
No conversation without mentioning Peter Canavan is valid. Dont care what the sport is.
Henry Shefflin was a better hurler than Canavan was a footballer.
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 16, 2022, 10:23:00 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on December 16, 2022, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 16, 2022, 09:43:48 AM
Did xavi really change the game? Giving him a bit too much credit here.
I don't think we are. The game is completely different now to what it was even 20 years ago. Was Xavi the only one responsible for that? Absolutely not but for me he was the talisman. His stats were revolutionary and players now are starting to catch up.
How much of that was down to Pep's coaching? Or going further back, Cryuff's?
Well he effectively replaced Pep in the Barca team and he was playing under Van Gall in the first team 10 years before Pep took over. How much of Pep's coaching philosophy is based around what Xavi could do?
I remember hearing a story years ago that Pep was at la Masia in the mid 90's as hed been asked to give out awards as club captain. The story goes that he said to Xavi whilst giving him his award you are the player that will retire me but he (pointing at Iniesta) will retire both of us. That showed two things, one Guardiola could fairly spot talent but secondly that he was awful at guessing players ages as theres less than 4 years age difference between Xavi and Iniesta
As for whether he changed the game for the better that's a whole other debate
Quote from: David McKeown on December 16, 2022, 08:13:36 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 16, 2022, 10:23:00 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on December 16, 2022, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 16, 2022, 09:43:48 AM
Did xavi really change the game? Giving him a bit too much credit here.
I don't think we are. The game is completely different now to what it was even 20 years ago. Was Xavi the only one responsible for that? Absolutely not but for me he was the talisman. His stats were revolutionary and players now are starting to catch up.
How much of that was down to Pep's coaching? Or going further back, Cryuff's?
Well he effectively replaced Pep in the Barca team and he was playing under Van Gall in the first team 10 years before Pep took over. How much of Pep's coaching philosophy is based around what Xavi could do?
I remember hearing a story years ago that Pep was at la Masia in the mid 90's as hed been asked to give out awards as club captain. The story goes that he said to Xavi whilst giving him his award you are the player that will retire me but he (pointing at Iniesta) will retire both of us. That showed two things, one Guardiola could fairly spot talent but secondly that he was awful at guessing players ages as theres less than 4 years age difference between Xavi and Iniesta
As for whether he changed the game for the better that's a whole other debate
Yeah heard that story myself as well. For what it's worth I think Modric deserves a mention in the same category as the Xavi's and Iniestas.
Quote from: laoislad on December 16, 2022, 05:40:18 PM
Quote from: rrhf on December 16, 2022, 05:22:17 PM
No conversation without mentioning Peter Canavan is valid. Dont care what the sport is.
Henry Shefflin was a better hurler than Canavan was a footballer.
Would disagree. Shefflin was a machine, a robotic hurler. Dj had more natural ability, flair and pace.
Canavan was a brilliant footballer. Intelligent, had serious pace, wicked when he needed to be. A serious operator.
Quote from: Silver hill on December 17, 2022, 11:34:22 AM
Quote from: laoislad on December 16, 2022, 05:40:18 PM
Quote from: rrhf on December 16, 2022, 05:22:17 PM
No conversation without mentioning Peter Canavan is valid. Dont care what the sport is.
Henry Shefflin was a better hurler than Canavan was a footballer.
Would disagree. Shefflin was a machine, a robotic hurler. Dj had more natural ability, flair and pace.
Canavan was a brilliant footballer. Intelligent, had serious pace, wicked when he needed to be. A serious operator.
Depends what you are looking for, general stats Shefflin is right up there, as is Canning, flare skill DJ was something else,
Same goes for these who's best?
Is being the best in Hurling less than being the best in Football? More play football.
Who is the best league of Ireland Soccer player ever? Is there a greatest ever to argue about?
Who is the best Australian Rules Football Player? I don't have a clue.
Do we really care?
i'd say there are a plethora of countries who don't even know Katie Taylor exists (never mind Shefflin/Canavan).
In the Gaelic Intercounty world we are exposed to four or five games a season with the top players with Top counties. One or two games for the top players with weaker counties. Three or four good games a year and you win an All-Star and are considered great.
With Messi, Ronaldo et al we are exposed to maybe up to 20+ at least. They are known all over the world in a game played, watched and analysed all over the world.
Someone said to me once there were 17k professional footballers from Brazil playing the game at home and around the world.
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 17, 2022, 08:16:00 PM
Is being the best in Hurling less than being the best in Football? More play football.
Who is the best league of Ireland Soccer player ever? Is there a greatest ever to argue about?
Who is the best Australian Rules Football Player? I don't have a clue.
Do we really care?
i'd say there are a plethora of countries who don't even know Katie Taylor exists (never mind Shefflin/Canavan).
In the Gaelic Intercounty world we are exposed to four or five games a season with the top players with Top counties. One or two games for the top players with weaker counties. Three or four good games a year and you win an All-Star and are considered great.
With Messi, Ronaldo et al we are exposed to maybe up to 20+ at least. They are known all over the world in a game played, watched and analysed all over the world.
Someone said to me once there were 17k professional footballers from Brazil playing the game at home and around the world.
Because football is easy to play, more skill involved in hurling
Watching a couple of middle aged, semi reasonable sports fans having a meltdown on Twitter today whilst Messi is clarifying his position above their hero Ronaldo.... It's kind of surreal.
Same bucks would probably wonder how the Catholic Church were able to manipulate minds.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2022, 11:44:57 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on December 17, 2022, 08:16:00 PM
Is being the best in Hurling less than being the best in Football? More play football.
Who is the best league of Ireland Soccer player ever? Is there a greatest ever to argue about?
Who is the best Australian Rules Football Player? I don't have a clue.
Do we really care?
i'd say there are a plethora of countries who don't even know Katie Taylor exists (never mind Shefflin/Canavan).
In the Gaelic Intercounty world we are exposed to four or five games a season with the top players with Top counties. One or two games for the top players with weaker counties. Three or four good games a year and you win an All-Star and are considered great.
With Messi, Ronaldo et al we are exposed to maybe up to 20+ at least. They are known all over the world in a game played, watched and analysed all over the world.
Someone said to me once there were 17k professional footballers from Brazil playing the game at home and around the world.
Because football is easy to play, more skill involved in hurling
Good man Milltown.
Close the Thread.
Quote from: thewobbler on December 18, 2022, 04:00:06 PM
Watching a couple of middle aged, semi reasonable sports fans having a meltdown on Twitter today whilst Messi is clarifying his position above their hero Ronaldo.... It's kind of surreal.
Same bucks would probably wonder how the Catholic Church were able to manipulate minds.
Man Ure fans took a bit of comfort in the Ronaldo goat conversation and the fact "Ronnie's a red".
Finally the debate has been settled. Will be funny to see Piers Morgan try and spout his Ronaldo nonsense with a straight face now.
Messi. GOAT.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 18, 2022, 06:09:55 PM
Messi. GOAT.
Messi. The COAT. :o
(https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article25783747.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_GettyImages-1450111209.jpg)
It's like someone above wanted to really draw a line under this debate. Messi was always seen as the beat, but then over the past 6 or 7 years it was Ronaldo who turned into the super clutch player of the two when it came to CL knockout stages and international football. Even at the end of last season, Ronaldo scoring in the PL and Messi barely able to buy a goal in an easier league. How things have completely changed in a few months, with Ronaldo being dropped at United, unable to score and then the big exit. It seemed like he would answer his critics at the World Cup, it definitely seemed impossible that he would have such a bad world cup and be dropped, given his status both globally and in Portugal. But his nightmare continues, the worst run/period in his career has happened to coincide with Messi winning the thing that differentiates careers. Couldn't make it up.
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 18, 2022, 09:17:29 PM
It's like someone above wanted to really draw a line under this debate. Messi was always seen as the beat, but then over the past 6 or 7 years it was Ronaldo who turned into the super clutch player of the two when it came to CL knockout stages and international football. Even at the end of last season, Ronaldo scoring in the PL and Messi barely able to buy a goal in an easier league. How things have completely changed in a few months, with Ronaldo being dropped at United, unable to score and then the big exit. It seemed like he would answer his critics at the World Cup, it definitely seemed impossible that he would have such a bad world cup and be dropped, given his status both globally and in Portugal. But his nightmare continues, the worst run/period in his career has happened to coincide with Messi winning the thing that differentiates careers. Couldn't make it up.
Whatever side you come down on I don't think what Ronaldos at at 37 should matter. 2 unbelievable players head and shoulders above the others career wise.
Did he not lose a child this year too? Bound to have a huge impact on him.
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 18, 2022, 09:17:29 PM
It's like someone above wanted to really draw a line under this debate. Messi was always seen as the beat, but then over the past 6 or 7 years it was Ronaldo who turned into the super clutch player of the two when it came to CL knockout stages and international football. Even at the end of last season, Ronaldo scoring in the PL and Messi barely able to buy a goal in an easier league. How things have completely changed in a few months, with Ronaldo being dropped at United, unable to score and then the big exit. It seemed like he would answer his critics at the World Cup, it definitely seemed impossible that he would have such a bad world cup and be dropped, given his status both globally and in Portugal. But his nightmare continues, the worst run/period in his career has happened to coincide with Messi winning the thing that differentiates careers. Couldn't make it up.
That's probably on the then PSG manager Pochettino. Should be a league Messi scores for fun in and only managed six Ligue 1 goals last season.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 18, 2022, 10:13:46 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 18, 2022, 09:17:29 PM
It's like someone above wanted to really draw a line under this debate. Messi was always seen as the beat, but then over the past 6 or 7 years it was Ronaldo who turned into the super clutch player of the two when it came to CL knockout stages and international football. Even at the end of last season, Ronaldo scoring in the PL and Messi barely able to buy a goal in an easier league. How things have completely changed in a few months, with Ronaldo being dropped at United, unable to score and then the big exit. It seemed like he would answer his critics at the World Cup, it definitely seemed impossible that he would have such a bad world cup and be dropped, given his status both globally and in Portugal. But his nightmare continues, the worst run/period in his career has happened to coincide with Messi winning the thing that differentiates careers. Couldn't make it up.
That's probably on the then PSG manager Pochettino. Should be a league Messi scores for fun in and only managed six Ligue 1 goals last season.
Messi has changed his game too though. A great creator now also.
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 18, 2022, 10:02:03 PM
Did he not lose a child this year too? Bound to have a huge impact on him.
Absolutely.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 18, 2022, 10:13:46 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 18, 2022, 09:17:29 PM
It's like someone above wanted to really draw a line under this debate. Messi was always seen as the beat, but then over the past 6 or 7 years it was Ronaldo who turned into the super clutch player of the two when it came to CL knockout stages and international football. Even at the end of last season, Ronaldo scoring in the PL and Messi barely able to buy a goal in an easier league. How things have completely changed in a few months, with Ronaldo being dropped at United, unable to score and then the big exit. It seemed like he would answer his critics at the World Cup, it definitely seemed impossible that he would have such a bad world cup and be dropped, given his status both globally and in Portugal. But his nightmare continues, the worst run/period in his career has happened to coincide with Messi winning the thing that differentiates careers. Couldn't make it up.
That's probably on the then PSG manager Pochettino. Should be a league Messi scores for fun in and only managed six Ligue 1 goals last season.
Did he even get that many? Looked finished and disinterested last season, think he'd been playing really well this season though and obviously had a great world cup
Messi fairly good this world cup but his PSG buddy the stand out player of the world cup.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 18, 2022, 10:24:28 PM
Messi fairly good this world cup but his PSG buddy the stand out player of the world cup.
Yeah some record that lad and he's what 24? Will have great chance to win the next world cup and will likely break goal scoring record at some point. Was quiet the last couple of games and for 80 mins today but that second goal was unreal. 3 penalties scored in the one game must be a record too
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 18, 2022, 09:17:29 PM
It's like someone above wanted to really draw a line under this debate. Messi was always seen as the beat, but then over the past 6 or 7 years it was Ronaldo who turned into the super clutch player of the two when it came to CL knockout stages and international football. Even at the end of last season, Ronaldo scoring in the PL and Messi barely able to buy a goal in an easier league. How things have completely changed in a few months, with Ronaldo being dropped at United, unable to score and then the big exit. It seemed like he would answer his critics at the World Cup, it definitely seemed impossible that he would have such a bad world cup and be dropped, given his status both globally and in Portugal. But his nightmare continues, the worst run/period in his career has happened to coincide with Messi winning the thing that differentiates careers. Couldn't make it up.
Sure didn't Ronaldo hardly play for 2 or 3 years , then wins the World Cup in 2002 scoring a hatful
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 18, 2022, 10:24:28 PM
Messi fairly good this world cup but his PSG buddy the stand out player of the world cup.
"Fairly good". His vision was phenomenal. The sublime he made look easy- he was more than fairly good. His PSG buddy will be great, and probably is already, but he wasn't as good in this world cup as Messi was.
Ronaldo was the master of his own down fall. No preseason then looking a transfer. You don't go from 24 goals a season to nothing in a few months if you put in the hard yards. Reap what you sow. Messi looked gone last season but proved himself. He was very good in the world cup
Messi heading to Inter Miami.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65832658
Quote from: dec on June 07, 2023, 02:50:51 PM
Messi heading to Inter Miami.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65832658
Just missed out on being coached by Phil Neville.
Quote from: general_lee on June 07, 2023, 02:53:45 PM
Quote from: dec on June 07, 2023, 02:50:51 PM
Messi heading to Inter Miami.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65832658
Just missed out on being coached by Phil Neville.
Can you f**king imagine that "Leo, let me show you what I want you to do. When Gary was at Valencia he did this.........."
Deffo end of an era now. Messi, CR7, Benzema all out of Europe, Ibra too
What sort of money would he be on? Thought he would've ended up in Saudi Arabia. No idea if it's true but just saw that Kante will be on 1.6 mil a week after his move there. :o
First link i clicked into said 1.2billion euro for 2yrs....
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on June 07, 2023, 05:24:15 PM
Deffo end of an era now. Messi, CR7, Benzema all out of Europe, Ibra too
Yep, the greatest player the game has ever seen of to a retirement home. I genuinely do not believe we will ever see his likes on a field again
Fox's presenter Brian Kilmeade on Messi coming to Inter Miami.
QuoteThe only thing I worry about is he doesn't speak English and I want to see him sit down and talk. David Beckham learned to speak English for us or be it with a funny accent
I went to college in Texas. After three months there I did my first exam in one of my classes. When I got the paper marked the professor had written on it that I did really well considering the obvious language barrier. Three months talking in the class and he thought I didn't speak English. So its not that uncommon
All non-Americans at the New Orleans university, Tulane had to take a non-credit English class (including not just Irish, but Canadians and Englanders). So yeah, not uncommon. My teacher told me I had done almost as well as a native speaker on the initial exam.
Messi makes his debut for Inter Miami and scores the winning goal from a free kick in the 93rd minute
https://youtu.be/7VGO2qmaNAw
I think the past year has probably settled this debate in Messi's favour.
A world Cup and 8 Ballon d'Ors.
I see a few posts on social media saying that he didnt deserve this one. Maybe if the WC was in the summer they'd remember it better.
That is the end of the Messi and Ronaldo domination of the Ballon d'Ors. It's wide open for the next few years.
English girls complaining they couldn't go as they were preparing for a match... Jesus!! It's a fixed to insure that most people can attend, not everyone!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 31, 2023, 10:58:32 AMEnglish girls complaining they couldn't go as they were preparing for a match... Jesus!! It's a fixed to insure that most people can attend, not everyone!
Aye they would have been missed at it too. The English media have filled them full of shite and their own self importance after a couple of decent tournaments.
You would think Haaland, Mbappe, and possibly Bellingham will win a few of them over the next 5 or so years
Quote from: gawa316 on October 31, 2023, 04:44:33 PMYou would think Haaland, Mbappe, and possibly Bellingham will win a few of them over the next 5 or so years
Haaland and Bellingham looking good for them for the next few years, Mbappe would need to go to a proper club
Quote from: toby47 on October 31, 2023, 09:05:07 AMI think the past year has probably settled this debate in Messi's favour.
A world Cup and 8 Ballon d'Ors.
Massive in the Leagues cup too.... probably clinched it for him :)
I wouldn't put great heed on D'ors, didn't deserve two of them, couldn't make the French league team of the year, 2022/23. We basing it on scoring alot in the USA or scoring 1 goal from play in the world cup.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 04, 2023, 08:03:40 PMI wouldn't put great heed on D'ors, didn't deserve two of them, couldn't make the French league team of the year, 2022/23. We basing it on scoring alot in the USA or scoring 1 goal from play in the world cup.
Or you know, being the best player in the World Cup by a country mile.
And for what it's worth, he scored 3 from play in the World Cup, not 1.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 04, 2023, 08:03:40 PMI wouldn't put great heed on D'ors, didn't deserve two of them, couldn't make the French league team of the year, 2022/23. We basing it on scoring alot in the USA or scoring 1 goal from play in the world cup.
Didn't deserve 2010,(Sneijder) 2019 (Van Dijk) or 2021 (Lewandowski) for me. This one very debatable Haaland obviously far better overall but Messi did have a good world cup. At the end of the day its a load of boys voting for their mates half them wouldn't have a clue about football.
Definitely deservedly 2010.
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 04, 2023, 10:40:13 PMDefinitely deservedly 2010.
Sneijder and Xavi/Iniesta all more deserving imo
The Ballon d'Or is like a concentrated version of the all Stars. The winners of the all Ireland get the most all stars. when the winners are confined to a very small number of teams the same people win year after year.
So 15 years or whatever of Messi and Ronaldo ignores all the other good players during that time
That's because they've been the best in the world for close to 15 years. Other players like R9 and Ronaldinho and even Suarez maybe hit similar heights for a season or two but no one in history has ever or will ever come close to doing it so well for so long. Ronaldos 07/08 season at United, Messi's performances against United in the champions league finals, his 91 goal year in 2012, Ronaldos stats for the 3 in a row champions league. All unbelievable.
The way Haalands going he may eventually hit the goal records but ability wise he's miles away. The other great players get named in FIFA world XI's although they were usually named moreso on reputation than actual performance
Been the best in the world over a long period, should have no basis, on best player on a yearly basis, both players have awards which should they shouldn't got, in certain years, the make up of who selects the players is all wrong, plus a top 5 is enough to select from, as top 10 spreads votes out too much.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 06, 2023, 12:28:45 PMBeen the best in the world over a long period, should have no basis, on best player on a yearly basis, both players have awards which should they shouldn't got, in certain years, the make up of who selects the players is all wrong, plus a top 5 is enough to select from, as top 10 spreads votes out too much.
Not sure any of Ronaldos could be argued against. Maybe 2013 Ribety had a case but Ronaldos stats were miles ahead. 2010, 2019, 2021 and 2023 for Messi all abit iffy for me.
Individual awards in team sports can always be controversial.
Ireland and Northern Ireland voted for Messi.