Ulster Final: Tyrone v Down 16/07/17 14.00 Clones

Started by omagh_gael, June 22, 2017, 10:12:37 AM

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omagh_gael

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on July 18, 2017, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Though Tyrone have been impressive so far I don't think they are All Ireland contenders yet. I think Ulster currently lacks a genuine top team and therefore their performances need to be viewed in that context. That's not to say they aren't a top 4 team, they probably are, but I couldn't see them beat Kerry or Dublin. I suspect they'll find it much tougher to score against the top three in the country (still Dublin, Kerry and Mayo IMO) and many of the criticisms from last year will resurface before the year is out.

And which other province has a top quality team as a litmus test?

3 of the 4 sides to progress through the qualifiers to the last 12 are from Ulster and Derry gave Mayo a big scare. Ulster is far stronger than the other provinces. Tyrone have it all to prove in the latter stages but to write them off on the basis of cruising through the toughest province is risible.

Tyrone
Dublin
Kerry
Roscommon
Down
Donegal
Armagh
Monaghan
Kildare
Galway
Cork

Ulster - 5
Leinster - 2
Munster - 2
Connacht - 3

Zulu, how can you say that when the stats bear out that Ulster has almost 50% of the remaining teams left in the AI series?

BennyHarp

#451
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on July 18, 2017, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
Though Tyrone have been impressive so far I don't think they are All Ireland contenders yet. I think Ulster currently lacks a genuine top team and therefore their performances need to be viewed in that context. That's not to say they aren't a top 4 team, they probably are, but I couldn't see them beat Kerry or Dublin. I suspect they'll find it much tougher to score against the top three in the country (still Dublin, Kerry and Mayo IMO) and many of the criticisms from last year will resurface before the year is out.

And which other province has a top quality team as a litmus test?

3 of the 4 sides to progress through the qualifiers to the last 12 are from Ulster and Derry gave Mayo a big scare. Ulster is far stronger than the other provinces. Tyrone have it all to prove in the latter stages but to write them off on the basis of cruising through the toughest province is risible.

I think Zulu and others quite rightly have doubts about Tyrone due to the fact that we just haven't beaten a top drawer team for a few years and have fallen short in big games in the recent past. Winning this years Ulster Championship at a canter doesn't really prove anything to the doubters but for me this team has been 3 or even 4 years in the making and each year we have improved slightly to the extent where I think we are on the verge of a break through. The squad is much better than 2013 when we lost to Mayo and we are much more disciplined defensively and more at ease going forward than in 2015 and 16. We also have grown up/matured a bit as a team and eradicated a lot of the nonsense that surrounded the team. I also think that physically we are more impressive than in recent years with the players looking super fit. This years performances add a bit of weight to my argument, however we won't know for sure until we see how they perform in a few weeks. I would be surprised if we don't see a much improved Tyrone in Croke Park this year though.
That was never a square ball!!

Zulu

I never said anything about the quality of Ulster compared to the other provinces but unlike Mayo, Dublin and Kerry Tyrone haven't done much outside the province in recent years so winning Ulster doesn't prove anything re their ability to push on. Besides, Armagh didn't look much better than a Tipp team beaten by a Cork team hammered by Kerry. Monaghan struggled against a Carlow team that Dublin disposed of much more easily. Lots of Ulster teams are no better than many others around the country. The amount of teams a province gets to the latter stages is as much about the draw as anything or was Munster the strongest province last year?

Tyrone may have improved their attacking ability but I can't say I've seen it, though admittedly I have seen a huge amount. However, they didn't look great in the first half of the Ulster final and added a fair bit when the game was over and still seem to have plenty of small forwards that won't break tackles against the best teams.

It would be great if another team can genuinely challenge but I think considering Tyrone all Ireland contenders based on what we've seen is premature. I think they're due to meet Dublin in the semi finals and I just can't see them win that.

Main Street

Tyrone are much improved from the team that were beaten by Mayo last year, a team who went on to go toe for toe against Dublin.
They are obvious contenders for the AI this year, ahead of Mayo imo.

Fuzzman

Compare Tyrone last year to this year.
Last year we had a similar win over Derry in the first round like we had this year, scoring 3.14.
We struggled the first day against an average enough Cavan side (0.16 - 3.07) and then blew them away in the replay (5.18 - 2.17)
We then just about scraped past a dogged but ageing Donegal side (0.13 - 0.11) who lost eventually lost to the Dubs by 5 points.

We then found it hard going against Mayo and eventually lost by a point.

This season, we have made very light work of anything we've met in Ulster and we seem to be playing with a lot more freedom and scoring much more from play. There hasn't been much talk so far about missing frees but will this become an issue again in tighter matches.

Last year we certainly had a much easier path to the final had we beaten Mayo but maybe this year we will have an easier path to the semifinal as we avoid any top 4 teams.
I think most fair minded people would still say that Kerry and dublin are the top 2 contenders with Mayo and Tyrone being the next two contenders (meaning they have a realistic chance of winning Sam)

It's very hard to judge any of those top 4 teams by their performances in their provinces. It's all about from the quarterfinals onwards and Mayo showed this more than anyone last year. They struggled through the qualifiers yet almost beat the Dubs except for two crazy ogs.

Some talk about Tyrone not beating Dublin, Kerry or Mayo since 2008.
Well, Kerry have not beaten the Dubs since 2009.
Am I right to say Mayo have not beaten Kerry since 1996?
Mayo beat the Dubs in 2012 & Donegal beat them in 2014 so could it be Tyrone/Monaghan/Armagh in 2017?  ;)

Main Street, have you married a Tyrone woman in the last year?

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 11:56:12 AM
I never said anything about the quality of Ulster compared to the other provinces but unlike Mayo, Dublin and Kerry Tyrone haven't done much outside the province in recent years so winning Ulster doesn't prove anything re their ability to push on. Besides, Armagh didn't look much better than a Tipp team beaten by a Cork team hammered by Kerry. Monaghan struggled against a Carlow team that Dublin disposed of much more easily. Lots of Ulster teams are no better than many others around the country. The amount of teams a province gets to the latter stages is as much about the draw as anything or was Munster the strongest province last year?

Tyrone may have improved their attacking ability but I can't say I've seen it, though admittedly I have seen a huge amount. However, they didn't look great in the first half of the Ulster final and added a fair bit when the game was over and still seem to have plenty of small forwards that won't break tackles against the best teams.

It would be great if another team can genuinely challenge but I think considering Tyrone all Ireland contenders based on what we've seen is premature. I think they're due to meet Dublin in the semi finals and I just can't see them win that.

Neither does winning Munster or Leinster for Dublin and Kerry. It's a new year now and things have changed.

Mayo haven't beaten Kerry under Fitzmaurice or Dublin under Gavin.
Kerry haven't beaten Dublin in Championship under Gavin in 3 attempts.

This Tyrone side has only really been on the go since 2015 as a serious team, they've lost narrowly to Kerry and Mayo but they look like they have been making strides throughout. They have still to meet Dublin in Championship under Gavin.

There's not a lot between the top 4 and I'd be confident of our chances.

WT4E

Everyone seems to be afraid to say it so I will:

Tyrone WILL beat Dublin this year!

Zulu

But Kerry and Dublin have performed at national level so their provincial performances mean nothing - they've proven themselves at national level whereas Tyrone haven't. Maybe Tyrone have improved and it's brilliant for a neutral like me if they have but I haven't seen anything that makes me think they'd beat Dublin or Kerry and there's nothing in Ulster of that quality. Kildare hammered Meath who only lost to Donegal by a great late McBrearty score. Formlines in the GAA are dodgy but Tyrone haven't played anyone close to a Dublin or Kerry yet and I think there's a gap still there.

Jayop

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 01:44:20 PM
But Kerry and Dublin have performed at national level so their provincial performances mean nothing - they've proven themselves at national level whereas Tyrone haven't. Maybe Tyrone have improved and it's brilliant for a neutral like me if they have but I haven't seen anything that makes me think they'd beat Dublin or Kerry and there's nothing in Ulster of that quality. Kildare hammered Meath who only lost to Donegal by a great late McBrearty score. Formlines in the GAA are dodgy but Tyrone haven't played anyone close to a Dublin or Kerry yet and I think there's a gap still there.

I think that's perfectly fair. Until Tyrone beat a Dublin, Kerry or even Mayo in the championship we can't tell where we're at. The semi final against Dublin should we get there us to be seen as an opportunity to prove these credentials.

Fuzzman

Quote from: WT4E on July 18, 2017, 01:30:06 PM
Everyone seems to be afraid to say it so I will:

Tyrone WILL beat Dublin this year!

Easy to say that WT4E but can you give us your reasons to why you are so confident?
What do we have that Kerry don't in your view. They've not beaten Dublin since 2009.

Here's the Irish News lads discussing the matches on Sunday. I'd say some of the Southern posters might find it hard to make out some of what they say.
https://www.facebook.com/IrishNewsLtd/videos/vb.115467001813429/1812379985455447/?type=2&theater

ONeill

What about that buckin sound system in Clones. Blastin out some shite whilst the band were doing their parade.
I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.

WT4E

Quote from: Fuzzman on July 18, 2017, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: WT4E on July 18, 2017, 01:30:06 PM
Everyone seems to be afraid to say it so I will:

Tyrone WILL beat Dublin this year!

Easy to say that WT4E but can you give us your reasons to why you are so confident?
What do we have that Kerry don't in your view. They've not beaten Dublin since 2009.

Here's the Irish News lads discussing the matches on Sunday. I'd say some of the Southern posters might find it hard to make out some of what they say.
https://www.facebook.com/IrishNewsLtd/videos/vb.115467001813429/1812379985455447/?type=2&theater

I just have a feeling in my bones Fuzz!!! :) I think Tyrone is one team Dublin would fear this year!

Of course any Dublin lads I meet i'm telling them we haven't a chance IF we meet!  ;)

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: Zulu on July 18, 2017, 01:44:20 PM
But Kerry and Dublin have performed at national level so their provincial performances mean nothing - they've proven themselves at national level whereas Tyrone haven't. Maybe Tyrone have improved and it's brilliant for a neutral like me if they have but I haven't seen anything that makes me think they'd beat Dublin or Kerry and there's nothing in Ulster of that quality. Kildare hammered Meath who only lost to Donegal by a great late McBrearty score. Formlines in the GAA are dodgy but Tyrone haven't played anyone close to a Dublin or Kerry yet and I think there's a gap still there.

I haven't seen anything from Kerry that makes me think they'll beat Dublin either.

Zulu

Dublin would still be favourites but Kerry have beaten them in a high octane league final, ran them close last year and have, in Geaney and O'Donoghue, perhaps the two best inside forwards in Ireland. I think Kerry will beat them if they meet but they are definitely the best equipped IMO. I think you've posted that Tyrone's style is best suited to beating Dublin but I couldn't disagree more. If Tyrone set up with 14 behind the ball and attempt to run the ball on the break they'll definitely lose to Dublin. Kerry will leave more players up front and Tyrone need to do that as well IMO. Tyrone's issue is they probably don't have the type of players to stay up front and be effective.

Main Street

Quote from: Fuzzman on July 18, 2017, 12:19:28 PM

Main Street, have you married a Tyrone woman in the last year?
Tyrone women lack a bit of what you might call sensitivity, for my liking.
But Ï would not be surprised to hear that there are hoards of Tyrone women on the search for real men  with them being fed up with all the local wasters and drunkards. You can pass the word around that there's a huge gender deficit (female) in the Faroes. However, I don't know how desperate the local men are by now, but they might even consider a Tyrone woman.