3 children found dead in a house in Dublin

[J70]

I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.

So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!

Or maybe the better understood this sort of thing is, the better the chances of preventing it in future.

I'd argue that most Irish people would believe that we've never understood depression better than in 2019 but yet it's clinical incidence has probably never been higher.

Maybe the incidence is higher because people are becoming more aware of the signs and symptoms and thus more likely to seek help and a diagnosis.

Doesn't mean the job is done though.

[seafoid]

Research published in 2013  found that in the previous 12 years 46 people lost their lives due to the phenomenon of murder-suicide. The research was carried out by Ciara Byrne, a forensics student at IT Sligo. Her study of records from the State Pathologist's office found there were 19 incidents in that time and that more than half of the 27 "innocent victims" were children.

https://www.itsligo.ie/2013/08/20/murder-suicide-research-conducted-by-forensics-student/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711

Hawe case: Irish society unlikely to learn from murder-suicide
Latest deaths will not be recorded or studied by the State in any substantive way

Conor Lally

What lessons can be taken from the Hawe family case to reduce the chances of such awful acts happening again, or at the very least to reduce their frequency? File photograph: Getty Images


When the media focus on the Cavan murder-suicide diminishes, the shattered relatives and friends of the Hawe family will be left with their grief and pain, and a massive void in their lives.
But what will Irish society have learned?
What lessons can be taken from this case to reduce the chances of such awful acts happening again, or at the very least to reduce their frequency?
If past cases are anything to go by, we will not understand murder-suicide any better.

Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events.
Her foundation issued a short briefing document to the media this week to urge caution and to provide details that might help put the murder-suicide phenomenon into context.
Psychiatric problems
The document notes that 80 per cent of those who carry out murder-suicides have a history of psychiatric disorders, in particular depression.

Some 70 per cent of female perpetrators and 30 per cent of males have had previous contact with a mental health professional. And 30 per cent of the males have suffered a decrease in status at work.
There were other facts and figures: there have been at least 24 murder-suicide cases in Ireland since 2004, for example.
However, almost all of the information was based on international research.
Little information exists about the Irish context, because only scant research has been done.
Prof Arensman said an independent research body directed by a group of stakeholders – the HSE and Garda among them – needs to be appointed to review all of the cases in Ireland over at least the last 10 years.
Future cases
And the data from that review should be added to by a much more thorough investigation of future cases similar to that which claimed the lives of the Hawe family this week.
As things stand, Alan Hawe's death will be recorded as a suicide. And the murders of his wife Clodagh Hawe and sons Liam (13), Niall (11) and Ryan (6) will be recorded in the regular crime statistics under the 'homicide' category.
The four murders will be counted in the same category as killings in the Kinahan-Hutch feud, for example, and with lives claimed in drunken brawls.
Nowhere will this case be officially recorded by a State justice or health agency as a murder-suicide.
And because the murderer in this case is dead and cannot be put on trial, the Garda inquiry under way since the alarm was raised last Monday morning is simply gathering information for a coroner's inquest. The inquest is a process that establishes cause of death only. It does not apportion blame.
And in many cases inquests only record a narrative verdict; nothing more than a description of the physical injuries death resulted from.
There is a very strong chance that all the public will ever know in solid fact about the Hawe murder-suicide case this week is the nature of the fatal injuries.
There may be some snippets of the family's last days, as there already have been, that emerge at the time of the inquest and which often only lead to more speculation.
When it comes to Ireland naming, recording and studying murder-suicides with a view to tackling the phenomenon, it would appear we have simply chosen not to do so.

[seafoid]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/20/mother-killed-children-love-messages-car-park-suffolk-inquest

[WT4E]

To be honest I don't know what I'm saying about this. Don't know how to feel. It's just gut wrenching I'll leave the answers to you lads.

[Eamonnca1]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.

So Hitler wasn't evil?    Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?

No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

We're now getting to the point in society where the "mental illness" card is be bandied about to excuse any sort of serious crime like this one, which is total nonsense to come out with and is actually an insult to the people who are really suffering from mental illness. Lets call it for what it is. Selfish and evil.

[An Watcher]

Seems like we all know the facts of this case before it has even properly come out. Think I'll reserve judgement for the time being

[trileacman]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.

So Hitler wasn't evil?    Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?

No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.

No you're not being clear enough. What does Hitler have to do with what happened in Newcastle?

You appear to be drawing some sort of bizarre conflation between the reasoning of Hitler and the mother of those 3 kids.

People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler

[Eamonnca1]

If you don't cut off my sentence halfway through, you'll see the rest:

thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.

The point that i'm trying to make is that some people do terrible things, while in their minds they think they're doing the right thing. What's obvious to you and I as wrong (or "evil" if you want to use that term) is, to them, a logical means to an end.

[AFM]

I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.

There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.

Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.

Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.

Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living.  Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.

I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.

I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.

Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.

So Hitler wasn't evil?    Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?

No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.

Do you think someone who kills innocent children is evil or would you simply conclude that in their minds they were trying to do the right thing?  It's amazing in today's society - especial the self-righteous on boards such as this, go out off their way to be more and more liberal, to the point they will condone everything, which is a very easy and admiral trait, except if any of these horrors were to God forbid in some guise land at their own doorstep, the high horse stance would soon dissipate!

[seafoid]

From this link

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/20/mother-killed-children-love-messages-car-park-suffolk-inquest
"It is clear that Fiona Anderson loved her children but that she was extremely emotionally disturbed on April 13, 14 and 15."
He said a torn-up letter recovered after her death provided a "harrowing insight" into her life. "She felt unable to cope with the situation and apologetically outlined her intention to take her children with her," Smith said. "In her words: a mother never abandons her children.""

Maybe the media shouldn't report on murder-suicide.
The idea is awful and people who are very unwell may be attracted to it as a part of suicidal ideation.

[five points]

Maybe the media shouldn't report on murder-suicide.
The idea is awful and people who are very unwell may be attracted to it as a part of suicidal ideation.

Agreed and I know (from direct personal experience of someone that is now dead) that it is indeed part of suicide ideation.

[J70]

Is that realistic in this day and age?

How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.

Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.

[seafoid]

Is that realistic in this day and age?

How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.

Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.

Maybe allow reporting but only according to strict guidelines

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
"Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events."

Nobody's kids deserve to die in copycat incidents

[J70]

Is that realistic in this day and age?

How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.

Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.

Maybe allow reporting but only according to strict guidelines

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
"Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events."

Nobody's kids deserve to die in copycat incidents

I would absolutely favour restrictions on reporting to spare the relatives (what about reporting on inquests and trials though?), but anyone intent on committing such an act is not going to find themselves short of methods and ways to do it, not matter what restrictions on reporting exist.