Cookstown Incident

Started by oakleaflad, March 18, 2019, 12:43:55 AM

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quit yo jibbajabba

Yup. Cocaine line a bit silly as theres any number of drugs out and about but dont condemn the mans post for one point...

Taylor

Quote from: oakleaflad on March 20, 2019, 11:14:39 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.

Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.
+1

And whilst the cocaine claim is completely unsubstantiated, drugs are absolutely everywhere at the moment and are a serious problem with a large number of young people.

Because of what women wear on hen nights it shows virtually all of our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol  :o

400 kids in the car park of the ages of 16 and under?

Aligned with the cocaine comment there are at least 3 bits of complete nonsense in this post

Antrim Coaster

I worked the doors for years and the amount of cocaine use is through the roof.

I've seen it with my own eyes

Cocaine and alcohol do not mix. Its a horrible combination.

sid waddell

#123
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part

Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.

It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.

That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.


trailer

Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part

Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.

It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.

That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.

100% Great post Sid.

five points

Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around  there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.

Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.

J70

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it.  Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.

Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.

I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:

'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'

These children have been let down .... end of.

I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

You have to have crowd control if you are going to permit throngs of people to congregate awaiting entry to your business. Even more so when there's drink involved. And even more so on top of that when you're dealing with kids, who have little enough sense individually and even less as a group.

trailer

Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around  there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.

Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.

It only took a google search to show your post for what it was. Bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcDqh8pUWlc

WT4E

Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part

Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.

It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.

That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.

Well said - Best post on this yet ..... shame on the people blaming children for this and mentioning drugs. And for people to say everyone was drunk is disgraceful. The children that died are as likely to have not been drinking as they are to have been drinking all I know is from the reports coming out about them they where kids of great character and a credit to their parents and upbringing!!! May they Rest in Peace!

five points

#129
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:53:14 AM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around  there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.

Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.

It only took a google search to show your post for what it was. Bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcDqh8pUWlc
Don't believe all the propaganda you read on the internet. https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

GetOverTheBar

Quote from: Antrim Coaster on March 20, 2019, 11:31:28 AM
I worked the doors for years and the amount of cocaine use is through the roof.

I've seen it with my own eyes

Cocaine and alcohol do not mix. Its a horrible combination.

What 16/17 year olds can afford Coke? It's about 50 quid a gram.

Seany

I do not mean to shock, or to be 'George Hook' esque in my comments, but anyone who would seek to deny that cocaine is not in general use among young people on nights out really ought to take a look at themselves.  it is now actually cheaper than drink, leaves no smell of the breath and effects have worn off before you get home.  What I am saying is that the responsibility for this tragedy lies deep in the heart of our collective culture and how we turn a blind eye to the rites of passage events that young people are engaged in.  And we really do need to take a long hard look at ourselves around how we behave on St. Patrick's day.  Excessive alcohol use seems to be part of the norm in Ireland.  I am not trying to lay the blame at the deceased; I believe they were just small people at the front of the queue who had nowhere to escape from the stampede, but at what stage do we actually ask teenagers to take responsibility for their own behaviour and refrain from arriving at an over 18 event drunk and disorderly and at what stage do we ask parents how much they know about their children faking ID and taking illegal substances and at what stage do we stop the nonsense of buses being booked by young people who then take money off about fifty of their mates to go to one of these discoes with no supervision, or no oversight.  Before we arrest the owner of a hotel, perhaps we might address these systemic holes in our night time culture and allow at least something good to come of this carnage.

sid waddell

Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 12:02:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: Thastheball on March 20, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on March 20, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting. This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking? Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

what a ridiculous post - any facts to back that up or just wild speculation on your part

Nothing ridiculous about it, it's absolutely on the money. It may or may not be related to Cookstown and best not discussed without truth, but the general sentiments are actually 100% correct. It seems to me very few young people going out now can't go without using some type of substance
It's the post of an idiot. It's George Hook-esque nonsense.

It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

All crowds are inherently dangerous if they are not controlled.

That's why there are crush barriers on terraces, it's why there are queueing systems and barriers at airports, it's why there are pedestrian lights and traffic lights, it's why there are footpaths, it's why Croke Park don't allow people onto the pitch at the of matches anymore. It's why there are health and safety laws full stop.
That is not what the emphasis of his post was about, it was general observation on the culture that now exists whereby any night out is accompanied by alcohol. I have a son who is 16, I agreed to let him go on bus to one of these events, he reported back the bus was full of drink, they were all 15/16/17 year olds, needless to say he never got any bus again, and that's the main point. The drink and drug culture
The emphasis of the post is to attempt to shift the blame onto the victims with weasel words and a giant red herring.

Exactly the same as what George Hook did when talking about a rape victim and exactly the same as what happened after Hillsborough.

Alcohol was not in any way to blame for these deaths.

Lack of crowd control was.


Taylor

Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 12:09:38 PM
I do not mean to shock, or to be 'George Hook' esque in my comments, but anyone who would seek to deny that cocaine is not in general use among young people on nights out really ought to take a look at themselves.  it is now actually cheaper than drink, leaves no smell of the breath and effects have worn off before you get home.  What I am saying is that the responsibility for this tragedy lies deep in the heart of our collective culture and how we turn a blind eye to the rites of passage events that young people are engaged in.  And we really do need to take a long hard look at ourselves around how we behave on St. Patrick's day.  Excessive alcohol use seems to be part of the norm in Ireland.  I am not trying to lay the blame at the deceased; I believe they were just small people at the front of the queue who had nowhere to escape from the stampede, but at what stage do we actually ask teenagers to take responsibility for their own behaviour and refrain from arriving at an over 18 event drunk and disorderly and at what stage do we ask parents how much they know about their children faking ID and taking illegal substances and at what stage do we stop the nonsense of buses being booked by young people who then take money off about fifty of their mates to go to one of these discoes with no supervision, or no oversight.  Before we arrest the owner of a hotel, perhaps we might address these systemic holes in our night time culture and allow at least something good to come of this carnage.

More nonsense - cocaine is not cheaper than drink.

Care to clarify your other comment........namely 400 children of 16 or under?

Seany - I understand this is a sensitive subject but you seem to be trying to transfer blame here

WT4E

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Why can this not be compared to Hillsborough and if it can't why are all media outlets getting Phil Scratons views on it. He was very definitive on what the questions need to be asked and he doesn't mention the children being the problem.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/03/19/news/phil-scraton-says-questions-will-be-asked-in-the-coming-days-about-crowd-safety-1576011/

"In all situations involving people going out for a night out there is a responsibility to put their safety to the forefront,"