Feile an Phobail

Started by StGallsGAA, August 11, 2016, 11:16:44 PM

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ardtole

We are talking a lot lately about how better educated we are, how the status in the nationalist community as a whole has improved considerably.

We should have the confidence to call out the ooh aah, up the ra chants. Its so fuc###g cringey if nothing else, surely we have enough genuine culture and musical tradition, than to roar this shite at the end of another successful Feile.

The same goes for the bonfire in the bogside, I see some people saying, the loyalist/unionist community have 500 bonfires, we only have 1. 1 is too bloody many,  it was embarrassing looking at pictures off it. People in the UK and down south look at the bonfires in disbelief.

We should have enough confidence in our own community, to celebrate our own culture without filling the pockets of the likes of the Wolfetones, who are well known to be mercenary, going back a long, long time.

Jeepers Creepers

Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 11:35:29 AM
Some people really need to drop the tribalism and look at things objectively. If you can't take the blinkers off and see how songs about the ra can be offensive to victims then I myself really do despair.

I agree 100% with BC1's previous comment on how this 'chant' belongs to a different era but we can't let loyalism/ hardline unionism drive the criticism.

ardtole

We are giving them the perfect platform to criticise us, despite how hypocritical it may well be. Their culture of, bands, marching, bonfires and the orange order is rooted in hatred and tribalism, we should be able to rise above all that.

Snapchap

Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 11:35:29 AM
Some people really need to drop the tribalism and look at things objectively. If you can't take the blinkers off and see how songs about the ra can be offensive to victims then I myself really do despair.

Straw man argument. The point I made (as I'm sure you understood) is around the equivalence you attempted to draw between singing rebel songs and singing a song gloating about Michaela McAreavey's murder on honeymoon.

Did the Wolfe Tones pick a random innocent Protestant murder victim (one which took place long after the end of the Troubles) and lead a singsong gloating about it, with the crowd singing along? Of course they didn't. To imply that what they did sing was just as bad, is just absolutely ridiculous.

RedHand88

Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 11:45:55 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 11:35:29 AM
Some people really need to drop the tribalism and look at things objectively. If you can't take the blinkers off and see how songs about the ra can be offensive to victims then I myself really do despair.

Straw man argument. The point I made (as I'm sure you understood) is around the equivalence you attempted to draw between singing rebel songs and singing a song gloating about Michaela McAreavey's murder on honeymoon.

Did the Wolfe Tones pick a random innocent Protestant murder victim (one which took place long after the end of the Troubles) and lead a singsong gloating about it, with the crowd singing along? Of course they didn't. To imply that what they did sing was just as bad, is just absolutely ridiculous.

I never tried to say they were equally bad, of course the McAreavey song is worse.
Both are wrong, that is my point. Do you really not see the issue with shouting up the ra in public in 2022??

trailer

Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 11:13:49 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:26:29 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:04:51 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 09:44:19 AM
I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?
Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder
You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

You're fully entitled to hold that opinion. Not sure why you would despair at what my beliefs are. Everyone's beliefs are formed through their upbringing and life experiences.

IRA murdered innocent civilians in the protestant community (and our own)  - Nationalists and Republicans sing songs glorifying them

Catholic girl murdered on her honeymoon - Unionists / Loyalists singing songs glorifying them

If the only way to define a terrorist organisation is whether or not they ever targeted civilians, then can you name for me a single armed group anywhere that wasn't "terrorist"? Were the allied forces in WW2 terrorist? After all, they carpet bombed the densely populated city of Dresden for three days, dropping 3,900 tonnes of explosives on it, killing 25,000 people.

And lived experience doesn't alter basic facts. The IRA over the course of the conflict is estimated to have detonated approximately 19,000 bombs/IEDs. The overwhelming majority were directed at british security force personnel/infrastructure. Less than 1% of them resulted in civilian deaths. So if you believed that IRA campaign was directed at civilians, you'd have to say they were pretty awful at it. To quote the widely respected veteran BBC journalist Peter Taylor:

"by and large, the IRA tactic was not to kill civilians... Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic state deliberately set out to kill as many innocent people as possible and that's epitomised by Al-Queda's attack on New York and Washington on 9/11.

In contrast the IRA's cardinal policy was not to deliberately go out and massacre civilians. Now I accept and I also qualified it with notable exceptions such as Tullyvallen Orange Hall and Whitecross massacre when protestant workmen were gunned down by the IRA, so there are notable exceptions.

With regard to Enniskillen the bomb was planted in a position to target security forces. The bomb was placed in a position where civilians were watching and whether or not that was deliberate, I very much doubt it.

It didn't actually pay the IRA to massacre and kill civilians...the IRA used violence primarily against security forces"


Singing along to a rebel songs isn't the same as sectarian gloating over the murder of an innocent woman. No matter how how try to spin it.

The IRA. "Be thankful! At least we're not Al Queda"


Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Please everyone ignore Snapchat. He is brainwashed. He would put his hand in the fire if Michelle O' Neill asked him. A throwback. Most of us grew up in the last 30 years

RedHand88

Quote from: trailer on August 17, 2022, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 11:13:49 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:26:29 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:04:51 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 09:44:19 AM
I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?
Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder
You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

You're fully entitled to hold that opinion. Not sure why you would despair at what my beliefs are. Everyone's beliefs are formed through their upbringing and life experiences.

IRA murdered innocent civilians in the protestant community (and our own)  - Nationalists and Republicans sing songs glorifying them

Catholic girl murdered on her honeymoon - Unionists / Loyalists singing songs glorifying them

If the only way to define a terrorist organisation is whether or not they ever targeted civilians, then can you name for me a single armed group anywhere that wasn't "terrorist"? Were the allied forces in WW2 terrorist? After all, they carpet bombed the densely populated city of Dresden for three days, dropping 3,900 tonnes of explosives on it, killing 25,000 people.

And lived experience doesn't alter basic facts. The IRA over the course of the conflict is estimated to have detonated approximately 19,000 bombs/IEDs. The overwhelming majority were directed at british security force personnel/infrastructure. Less than 1% of them resulted in civilian deaths. So if you believed that IRA campaign was directed at civilians, you'd have to say they were pretty awful at it. To quote the widely respected veteran BBC journalist Peter Taylor:

"by and large, the IRA tactic was not to kill civilians... Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic state deliberately set out to kill as many innocent people as possible and that's epitomised by Al-Queda's attack on New York and Washington on 9/11.

In contrast the IRA's cardinal policy was not to deliberately go out and massacre civilians. Now I accept and I also qualified it with notable exceptions such as Tullyvallen Orange Hall and Whitecross massacre when protestant workmen were gunned down by the IRA, so there are notable exceptions.

With regard to Enniskillen the bomb was planted in a position to target security forces. The bomb was placed in a position where civilians were watching and whether or not that was deliberate, I very much doubt it.

It didn't actually pay the IRA to massacre and kill civilians...the IRA used violence primarily against security forces"


Singing along to a rebel songs isn't the same as sectarian gloating over the murder of an innocent woman. No matter how how try to spin it.

The IRA. "Be thankful! At least we're not Al Queda"

Lol

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: trailer on August 17, 2022, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 11:13:49 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:26:29 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:04:51 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 09:44:19 AM
I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?
Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder
You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

You're fully entitled to hold that opinion. Not sure why you would despair at what my beliefs are. Everyone's beliefs are formed through their upbringing and life experiences.

IRA murdered innocent civilians in the protestant community (and our own)  - Nationalists and Republicans sing songs glorifying them

Catholic girl murdered on her honeymoon - Unionists / Loyalists singing songs glorifying them

If the only way to define a terrorist organisation is whether or not they ever targeted civilians, then can you name for me a single armed group anywhere that wasn't "terrorist"? Were the allied forces in WW2 terrorist? After all, they carpet bombed the densely populated city of Dresden for three days, dropping 3,900 tonnes of explosives on it, killing 25,000 people.

And lived experience doesn't alter basic facts. The IRA over the course of the conflict is estimated to have detonated approximately 19,000 bombs/IEDs. The overwhelming majority were directed at british security force personnel/infrastructure. Less than 1% of them resulted in civilian deaths. So if you believed that IRA campaign was directed at civilians, you'd have to say they were pretty awful at it. To quote the widely respected veteran BBC journalist Peter Taylor:

"by and large, the IRA tactic was not to kill civilians... Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic state deliberately set out to kill as many innocent people as possible and that's epitomised by Al-Queda's attack on New York and Washington on 9/11.

In contrast the IRA's cardinal policy was not to deliberately go out and massacre civilians. Now I accept and I also qualified it with notable exceptions such as Tullyvallen Orange Hall and Whitecross massacre when protestant workmen were gunned down by the IRA, so there are notable exceptions.

With regard to Enniskillen the bomb was planted in a position to target security forces. The bomb was placed in a position where civilians were watching and whether or not that was deliberate, I very much doubt it.

It didn't actually pay the IRA to massacre and kill civilians...the IRA used violence primarily against security forces"


Singing along to a rebel songs isn't the same as sectarian gloating over the murder of an innocent woman. No matter how how try to spin it.

The IRA. "Be thankful! At least we're not Al Queda"

We didnt kill 2000 we only killed 1700 lol

Snapchap

#189
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 11:45:55 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 11:35:29 AM
Some people really need to drop the tribalism and look at things objectively. If you can't take the blinkers off and see how songs about the ra can be offensive to victims then I myself really do despair.

Straw man argument. The point I made (as I'm sure you understood) is around the equivalence you attempted to draw between singing rebel songs and singing a song gloating about Michaela McAreavey's murder on honeymoon.

Did the Wolfe Tones pick a random innocent Protestant murder victim (one which took place long after the end of the Troubles) and lead a singsong gloating about it, with the crowd singing along? Of course they didn't. To imply that what they did sing was just as bad, is just absolutely ridiculous.

I never tried to say they were equally bad, of course the McAreavey song is worse.
Both are wrong, that is my point. Do you really not see the issue with shouting up the ra in public in 2022??

I didn't make any comment on the rebel singing, other than to say that the equivalence you drew was just absurd. Glad to see you back-tracking at least because your initial post was very clearly an attempt at drawing a parallel where none existed.

You want my two cents on the rebel singing? You book a rebel band to play in an exclusively republican area at a concert which, due to the band in question, only nationalists/republicans will attend anyway? I'm not one bit bothered. Book a band to play in Belfast City centre and they start belting out rebel songs? Not appropriate. Worth remembering though, that is that while the Wolfe Tones concert didn't receive public funding, the council does fund British Army parades which do take over the city centre. So we live in a statelet where only one of those events is allowed to be termed offensive, hence my reluctance to indulge/be conned by the latest "unionist fury" media campaign (which I think I'm correct in saying is the fourth one in the last fortnight - two of which were fury around events that didn't even happen). If you think this campaign is anything other than an attempt to brand and criminalise an entire community, then just consider that a BBC radio presenter is gloating on twitter that his show has managed to push Translink to reviewing sponsorship of a children's Teddybear's Picnic because it was a Féíle an Phobail event.

Snapchap

Quote from: trailer on August 17, 2022, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 11:13:49 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:58:31 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:32:29 AM
Quote from: Throw It Up Ref on August 17, 2022, 10:26:29 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 10:04:51 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 17, 2022, 09:44:19 AM
I think the Michaela McAreavey chant this summer was a watershed moment.

Sing songs are not being tolerated anymore by anyone. Even in my own experience from one's at work, friends etc, they would have went to the Wolfe Tones unapologetically in previous years, yet now cringe at the thought of it.
Can we really ignore the Fleadh and Wolfe Tones chants after the (completely justified) outrage at Dundonald Orange Hall?
Unbelievable to think there are nationalists out there who are so conned by the latest media facilitated "unionist fury" campaign, that they would actually attempt to draw an equivalence between the singing of rebel songs and the singing of a sectarian song celebrating the murder of an innocent woman on her honeymoon.

Not sure I agree with you there Snapchat. It's not being conned, it's being able to look at things objectively. We can't cry that singing of that song in Dundonald was abhorrent and in the same breath sing songs that glorify a terrorist organisation that killed hundreds of civilians. Murder is murder
You might call the IRA a terrorist organisation. I most certainly would not. They were no more a terrorist organisation than were the Volunteers of 1916 or the Tan War. But that's neither here nor there - singing along to a rebel song is not the same as singing a song which gloating about a death of a Catholic girl who was murdered on her honeymoon. If you really believe that they are equivalents, I really do despair.

You're fully entitled to hold that opinion. Not sure why you would despair at what my beliefs are. Everyone's beliefs are formed through their upbringing and life experiences.

IRA murdered innocent civilians in the protestant community (and our own)  - Nationalists and Republicans sing songs glorifying them

Catholic girl murdered on her honeymoon - Unionists / Loyalists singing songs glorifying them

If the only way to define a terrorist organisation is whether or not they ever targeted civilians, then can you name for me a single armed group anywhere that wasn't "terrorist"? Were the allied forces in WW2 terrorist? After all, they carpet bombed the densely populated city of Dresden for three days, dropping 3,900 tonnes of explosives on it, killing 25,000 people.

And lived experience doesn't alter basic facts. The IRA over the course of the conflict is estimated to have detonated approximately 19,000 bombs/IEDs. The overwhelming majority were directed at british security force personnel/infrastructure. Less than 1% of them resulted in civilian deaths. So if you believed that IRA campaign was directed at civilians, you'd have to say they were pretty awful at it. To quote the widely respected veteran BBC journalist Peter Taylor:

"by and large, the IRA tactic was not to kill civilians... Al-Qaeda and the so-called Islamic state deliberately set out to kill as many innocent people as possible and that's epitomised by Al-Queda's attack on New York and Washington on 9/11.

In contrast the IRA's cardinal policy was not to deliberately go out and massacre civilians. Now I accept and I also qualified it with notable exceptions such as Tullyvallen Orange Hall and Whitecross massacre when protestant workmen were gunned down by the IRA, so there are notable exceptions.

With regard to Enniskillen the bomb was planted in a position to target security forces. The bomb was placed in a position where civilians were watching and whether or not that was deliberate, I very much doubt it.

It didn't actually pay the IRA to massacre and kill civilians...the IRA used violence primarily against security forces"


Singing along to a rebel songs isn't the same as sectarian gloating over the murder of an innocent woman. No matter how how try to spin it.

The IRA. "Be thankful! At least we're not Al Queda"

Ah Trailer, welcome back. Maybe you might finally grow a pair and answer this straight forward question: Were the British army terrorist?

Snapchap

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 17, 2022, 12:10:18 PM
We didnt kill 2000 we only killed 1700 lol

Remember when the British Army and RUC conspired to erroneously place the blame for the McGurks Bar massacre on the IRA? 15 people died and families spent 40 years campaigning for the state to admit that it deliberately lied about who was responsible? The truth about who was responsible for what is actually important to people. And when you call me "sick" and a "gimp" for calling out the specific lie you and trailer attempted to peddle about the deaths of around 300 people, it makes me wonder were the 15 who died at McGurks Bar among the 300 victims you think it's ok to lie about.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

#192
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 12:32:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 17, 2022, 12:10:18 PM
We didnt kill 2000 we only killed 1700 lol

Remember when the British Army and RUC conspired to erroneously place the blame for the McGurks Bar massacre on the IRA? 15 people died and families spent 40 years campaigning for the state to admit that it deliberately lied about who was responsible? The truth about who was responsible for what is actually important to people. And when you call me "sick" and a "gimp" for calling out the specific lie you and trailer attempted to peddle about the deaths of around 300 people, it makes me wonder were the 15 who died at McGurks Bar among the 300 victims you think it's ok to lie about.

You are making absolutely no sense. You didnt call out any specifics and I didnt peddle anything or dispute any figures, you are the only one doing that, only to  get at a political party, you are more interested in that than anything else, mask slipped, shallow and heartless. Anois imigh leat

Snapchap

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 17, 2022, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 12:32:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 17, 2022, 12:10:18 PM
We didnt kill 2000 we only killed 1700 lol

Remember when the British Army and RUC conspired to erroneously place the blame for the McGurks Bar massacre on the IRA? 15 people died and families spent 40 years campaigning for the state to admit that it deliberately lied about who was responsible? The truth about who was responsible for what is actually important to people. And when you call me "sick" and a "gimp" for calling out the specific lie you and trailer attempted to peddle about the deaths of around 300 people, it makes me wonder were the 15 who died at McGurks Bar among the 300 victims you think it's ok to lie about.

You are making absolutely no sense. You didnt call out any specifics and I didnt peddle anything or dispute any figures, you are the only one doing that, only to  get a a political party, you are more interested in that than anything else, mask slipped, shallow and heartless. Anois imigh leat

This has nothing to do with a political party. Trailer overstated the number of people killed by the IRA by the tune of at least 300 people. I called out that as a lie, given that the truth of who killed who is, to most people (and especially to those who lost someone) deeply important. For simply calling out the lie, you called me "sick", a "gimp" and now added to that "shallow" and "heartless"

So which is more "shallow and heartless": lying about who killed over 300 people, or challenging someone who lies about their deaths?

marty34

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 17, 2022, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on August 17, 2022, 12:32:39 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 17, 2022, 12:10:18 PM
We didnt kill 2000 we only killed 1700 lol

Remember when the British Army and RUC conspired to erroneously place the blame for the McGurks Bar massacre on the IRA? 15 people died and families spent 40 years campaigning for the state to admit that it deliberately lied about who was responsible? The truth about who was responsible for what is actually important to people. And when you call me "sick" and a "gimp" for calling out the specific lie you and trailer attempted to peddle about the deaths of around 300 people, it makes me wonder were the 15 who died at McGurks Bar among the 300 victims you think it's ok to lie about.

You are making absolutely no sense. You didnt call out any specifics and I didnt peddle anything or dispute any figures, you are the only one doing that, only to  get a a political party, you are more interested in that than anything else, mask slipped, shallow and heartless. Anois imigh leat

Dont dispute figures with Fear.

"Biggest landlord party in the North, not sure about the south. Very few dont have a second home in Donegal, hard on an industrial wage".

Re: SF a few months backs and when asked to come up numbers a few times etc. unsurprising he didn't/couldn't.

Caught spoofing on the price of student rooms/houses in the Holylands a while back also until a few lads pulled him up on it.

Once again I ask, if the Wolfe Tones are cancelled, what other groups/bands do get cancelled?

Are we going to do a list of songs that are allowed? Which ones are allowed and not allowed?

Do up a list.