A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Applesisapples

Quote from: balladmaker on December 05, 2022, 01:16:16 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 05, 2022, 01:06:08 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on December 05, 2022, 12:41:07 PM
Seems the bigger threat to unity comes from indifferent "nationalists" who would have previously have been considered a definite Yes to Unity vote.

Which is crazy when you think about it. Would rather live with the DUP still pulling the strings, a Tory government who don't give a flying f@ck and pretend to themselves that the NHS is amazing and that their pension will be taken away from them if they leave the UK. It's like they  listen to what Bryson, Sammy Wilson etc say and then believe it ffs.

This is the point I find so shocking ... who in their right mind would want to maintain the current status quo in the union.  I wonder what % of catholics have a civil service job in the north, I'd expect those to possibly have a reason to be cautious of constitutional change ... but there's obviously a lot more at play in this survey outside of civil service jobs.
To get all nationalists voting yes you need to map out exactly what is going to happen, most people are adverse to unknown changes to their lives.

armaghniac

People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Applesisapples

Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.
No that is not my position, it will take input from the Southern Government, SF are not in a position to lead on this, unless they become the next Irish government.

clonadmad

Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.

Yes people in the Republic of Ireland are so gullible that they would take the word of politicians and banker and not want the details unlike the much more streetwise northerners

Wildweasel74

No one has ever put forward of excately what they propose. Healthcare, infrastructure funding, pensions, big differences in pay for the same job north and south. Who going to vote for sthing when those looking unity don't put forward excately what they do there. Looking at the way they performed in Stormont past 15+yrs which got very little done, I say putting forward a realistic plan is beyond them and they waiting on somebody else to do it for them.

seafoid

A united Ireland is not going to get the support needed until the 40% in the middle shift, as happened in the 1918 election.
And that won't happen until Unionists in South Belfast lose their pensions. Wait at least 20 years.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

armaghniac

Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.

Yes people in the Republic of Ireland are so gullible that they would take the word of politicians and banker and not want the details unlike the much more streetwise northerners

What insight does being streetwise bring to it? At this stage it is as much about economics as anything else.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

NI is an economic basket case but the 40% won't admit it.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

clonadmad

Quote from: armaghniac on December 09, 2022, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.

Yes people in the Republic of Ireland are so gullible that they would take the word of politicians and banker and not want the details unlike the much more streetwise northerners

What insight does being streetwise bring to it? At this stage it is as much about economics as anything else.

It is all about economics and if the north was propering there wouldn't be a mention of a UI

But despite NI being a basket case  there's still a significant majority that want to remain tied to the UK and that includes so called nationalists






weareros

Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2022, 06:19:22 PM
NI is an economic basket case but the 40% won't admit it.

The unionists are fed a lot of propaganda by both their press and politicians. They were pointing out the generous COVID support by British government as a benefit of staying in UK when the Irish gov support far exceeded it, and of course our opposition made it sound like Irish response was poor too. It far exceeded UK in both keeping death rate low, and the monetary payments.

Then they have "economists" like Esmond Birnie (a former UUP politician)  telling them standard of living is worse in the Republic. He writes about costs of protocol while ignoring the sizable increase (over £1bn) of increase in exports from North to South thanks to keeping EU access.

If there's any positive news about Irish economy, the inflated GDP because of US multinationals will be rolled out, ignoring the fact that Ireland will well exceed €20bn in corporate tax this year which resulted in a government surplus to pay for the cost of living crisis while UK will borrow and then put the cost back on the taxpayer. Besides, the North brings in literally nothing in corporate tax. On top of that they got screwed by the stupidity of DUP who are not only causing a delay in tne £600 energy payment but also we're not smart enough to argue that 70% of north is on home heating oil compared to 4% in UK, and are only getting £100 against that, whereas those in GB on Gas will get a higher savings.

That said until Ireland solves housing crisis and waiting lists, bad news will dominate what they are hearing. Even though social housing wait list in north is worse and NHS as many have said is on its knees.

lenny

Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 06:38:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 09, 2022, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.

Yes people in the Republic of Ireland are so gullible that they would take the word of politicians and banker and not want the details unlike the much more streetwise northerners

What insight does being streetwise bring to it? At this stage it is as much about economics as anything else.

It is all about economics and if the north was propering there wouldn't be a mention of a UI

But despite NI being a basket case  there's still a significant majority that want to remain tied to the UK and that includes so called nationalists

Most nationalists who want to stay in the uk do so because of the nhs. They haven't seemed to work out the south have much better health outcomes, a higher standard of living and a significantly higher life expectancy. As regards the nhs, it's on its knees and it's also not free, we pay a significant amount of our taxes to fund it. The south also have much, much higher salaries so I would definitely vote for a UI if given the chance. People need to be given all the information regarding how things would work post a positive UI referendum vote.

armaghniac

#3791
Quote from: lenny on December 09, 2022, 06:59:39 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 06:38:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 09, 2022, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.

Yes people in the Republic of Ireland are so gullible that they would take the word of politicians and banker and not want the details unlike the much more streetwise northerners

What insight does being streetwise bring to it? At this stage it is as much about economics as anything else.

It is all about economics and if the north was propering there wouldn't be a mention of a UI

But despite NI being a basket case  there's still a significant majority that want to remain tied to the UK and that includes so called nationalists

Most nationalists who want to stay in the uk do so because of the nhs. They haven't seemed to work out the south have much better health outcomes, a higher standard of living and a significantly higher life expectancy. As regards the nhs, it's on its knees and it's also not free, we pay a significant amount of our taxes to fund it. The south also have much, much higher salaries so I would definitely vote for a UI if given the chance. People need to be given all the information regarding how things would work post a positive UI referendum vote.

If you phoned PaddyPower and asked for the odds that NI would have more charges for health in 2030 than the 26 counties, I wouldn't have thought that you would get great odds.

Your average punter in the 6 counties thinks that I might be €2000 better off in a UI, but I am going to reject that because I might have to pay the doctor €200.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

Quote from: weareros on December 09, 2022, 06:58:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2022, 06:19:22 PM
NI is an economic basket case but the 40% won't admit it.

The unionists are fed a lot of propaganda by both their press and politicians. They were pointing out the generous COVID support by British government as a benefit of staying in UK when the Irish gov support far exceeded it, and of course our opposition made it sound like Irish response was poor too. It far exceeded UK in both keeping death rate low, and the monetary payments.

Then they have "economists" like Esmond Birnie (a former UUP politician)  telling them standard of living is worse in the Republic. He writes about costs of protocol while ignoring the sizable increase (over £1bn) of increase in exports from North to South thanks to keeping EU access.

If there's any positive news about Irish economy, the inflated GDP because of US multinationals will be rolled out, ignoring the fact that Ireland will well exceed €20bn in corporate tax this year which resulted in a government surplus to pay for the cost of living crisis while UK will borrow and then put the cost back on the taxpayer. Besides, the North brings in literally nothing in corporate tax. On top of that they got screwed by the stupidity of DUP who are not only causing a delay in tne £600 energy payment but also we're not smart enough to argue that 70% of north is on home heating oil compared to 4% in UK, and are only getting £100 against that, whereas those in GB on Gas will get a higher savings.

That said until Ireland solves housing crisis and waiting lists, bad news will dominate what they are hearing. Even though social housing wait list in north is worse and NHS as many have said is on its knees.
Most people don't pay attention to details like how health coverages compare. The Irish Times had an article last weak about how Southern voters wouldn't vote for a UI. Most wouldn't be qualified to answer the question. Until there is a Citizens Forum and some sort of massive economic shock, asking people about a UI is pointless.

Erskine Childers did a car tour of the South in 1908 and witnessed a level of deprivation, poverty and inequality that convinced him that Home Rule was the only way forward. When there is comfort and satisfaction, nothing changes . Irish Independent readers in 1920 would have been unionists 20 years previously.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

This is going to be dynamite in the UI discussions

https://www.military.ie/en/public-information/defence-forces-ceremonial/state-and-military-funerals/

Military Funerals - Authorised Organisations
Military Honours at funerals may be provided only to the following authorised organisations:

The Old Irish Republican Army
Fianna Éireann
The Irish Citizen Army
Cumann na mBan
The Hibernian Rifles
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Baile Brigín 2

Quote from: armaghniac on December 09, 2022, 07:26:09 PM
Quote from: lenny on December 09, 2022, 06:59:39 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 06:38:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 09, 2022, 05:49:48 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 09, 2022, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2022, 11:24:25 AM
People in the south favour unity, because they think that Paschal Donohoe, the IDA, the Central Bank etc will make it work. People in the North are used to dealing with SF and rightly want the detail spelt out and they have zero belief in their planning ability and of course SF are always saying how shite the ROI is.

Yes people in the Republic of Ireland are so gullible that they would take the word of politicians and banker and not want the details unlike the much more streetwise northerners

What insight does being streetwise bring to it? At this stage it is as much about economics as anything else.

It is all about economics and if the north was propering there wouldn't be a mention of a UI

But despite NI being a basket case  there's still a significant majority that want to remain tied to the UK and that includes so called nationalists

Most nationalists who want to stay in the uk do so because of the nhs. They haven't seemed to work out the south have much better health outcomes, a higher standard of living and a significantly higher life expectancy. As regards the nhs, it's on its knees and it's also not free, we pay a significant amount of our taxes to fund it. The south also have much, much higher salaries so I would definitely vote for a UI if given the chance. People need to be given all the information regarding how things would work post a positive UI referendum vote.

If you phoned PaddyPower and asked for the odds that NI would have more charges for health in 2030 than the 26 counties, I wouldn't have thought that you would get great odds.

Your average punter in the 6 counties thinks that I might be €2000 better off in a UI, but I am going to reject that because I might have to pay the doctor €200.

Is the doctor giving you a happy ending?