Super 8s

Started by theticklemister, February 19, 2017, 10:55:16 PM

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LeoMc

Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).

Bringing the games forward addresses this. Even clubs in successful counties get September back. Those outside the 8 have July / August for their club games also.

ha ha derry

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).
I know. So what do you do? I see the Wicklow manager saying his players should go on strike because they only got two games last summer. The Wicklow club players will be able to play all of July, August and September next year. How do you keep everyone happy? What does the Wicklow manager want so that he gets more games? A second-tier championship that they can compete in? Nope, the very players he says are being treated like dogs don't want it.

So many complaints, so few answers.

A tiered championship is the answer. Yes teams always want to play in the Sam Maguire but if they want more meaningful games then a structure similar to the hurling championship must be introduced in football. Earn your right to compete.

Farrandeelin

Quote from: Dinny Breen on February 28, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
QuoteIt also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult.

Actually it makes it easier for Dublin to get to the final, they can now afford a bad day after Leinster and still have a chance, whereas a bad day in the quarters and they were gone.

Anyway I am all for change, however let's be brutally honest, if any county with a county ground capacity less than 15k have Dublin in the group stages not a hope in hell they will be allowed play Dublin at home, not a hope in hell.

First paragraph bang on Dinny. Come to think of it your second one is too. I don't believe they will be forced to play in CP though.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

ha ha derry

Quote from: LeoMc on February 28, 2017, 10:44:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).

Bringing the games forward addresses this. Even clubs in successful counties get September back. Those outside the 8 have July / August for their club games also.

All but two counties had September anyway.  ;)

Esmarelda

Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).
I know. So what do you do? I see the Wicklow manager saying his players should go on strike because they only got two games last summer. The Wicklow club players will be able to play all of July, August and September next year. How do you keep everyone happy? What does the Wicklow manager want so that he gets more games? A second-tier championship that they can compete in? Nope, the very players he says are being treated like dogs don't want it.

So many complaints, so few answers.

A tiered championship is the answer. Yes teams always want to play in the Sam Maguire but if they want more meaningful games then a structure similar to the hurling championship must be introduced in football. Earn your right to compete.
Fine, but that won't pass at congress even with the 60% pass rate so, with respect, it's fairly pointless in 2017. Maybe in three years time it might be a runner but we're dealing with, and criticising, what's been passed in 2017.

ha ha derry

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).
I know. So what do you do? I see the Wicklow manager saying his players should go on strike because they only got two games last summer. The Wicklow club players will be able to play all of July, August and September next year. How do you keep everyone happy? What does the Wicklow manager want so that he gets more games? A second-tier championship that they can compete in? Nope, the very players he says are being treated like dogs don't want it.

So many complaints, so few answers.

A tiered championship is the answer. Yes teams always want to play in the Sam Maguire but if they want more meaningful games then a structure similar to the hurling championship must be introduced in football. Earn your right to compete.
Fine, but that won't pass at congress even with the 60% pass rate so, with respect, it's fairly pointless in 2017. Maybe in three years time it might be a runner but we're dealing with, and criticising, what's been passed in 2017.

I agree with that. However in three years time there will never be an appetite for the tiered system. If it had been treated the same way in hurling the structure would never have changed either. The decision had to be taken despite the protests.

Esmarelda

Despite the players' protests? Who's in favour of such a system?

ha ha derry

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
Despite the players' protests? Who's in favour of such a system?

Not player protests in hurling, it was more the county boards.

Esmarelda

Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 11:12:04 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
Despite the players' protests? Who's in favour of such a system?

Not player protests in hurling, it was more the county boards.
But we're talking about the football system in there here and now. I'm not sure what stakeholders are behind such a move, other than the media who play the non-elitist card but who I suspect want the weaker teams out of their sight so the can focus on the big guns.

Zulu

Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).
I know. So what do you do? I see the Wicklow manager saying his players should go on strike because they only got two games last summer. The Wicklow club players will be able to play all of July, August and September next year. How do you keep everyone happy? What does the Wicklow manager want so that he gets more games? A second-tier championship that they can compete in? Nope, the very players he says are being treated like dogs don't want it.

So many complaints, so few answers.

A tiered championship is the answer. Yes teams always want to play in the Sam Maguire but if they want more meaningful games then a structure similar to the hurling championship must be introduced in football. Earn your right to compete.
Fine, but that won't pass at congress even with the 60% pass rate so, with respect, it's fairly pointless in 2017. Maybe in three years time it might be a runner but we're dealing with, and criticising, what's been passed in 2017.

I agree with that. However in three years time there will never be an appetite for the tiered system. If it had been treated the same way in hurling the structure would never have changed either. The decision had to be taken despite the protests.

You don't know what people will want in 3 years time and you don't know the tiered system will work in football. There's fairly clear tiers in hurling. Finally, Croke Park are getting abused to the high hilt for this fairly modest change and you thing they should have forced (how I don't know) a proposal through that would have had little or no support in congress?

As Esmarelda keeps pointing out, this was the only realistic change that was likely to get through congress. The more radical changes that most agree we need won't get through in one go. So criticisms have to be tempered by that reality if they are to be valid.

ha ha derry

Quote from: Zulu on February 28, 2017, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:54:18 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 10:32:58 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 28, 2017, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Quote from: ballinaman on February 28, 2017, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: ha ha derry on February 28, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
I don't see any right minded player or manager wanting to play three extra matches at that stage of a competition. No benefit to the teams. increased injury risk and fatigue when you least need it.
Shouldn't be a problem if the mid week training is adjusted accordingly. However, with the amount of dinosaurs still taking sessions there might be problems...workrate wasn't high enough last Saturday lads, let's train the bollox off ye Wednesday to get us right for next Saturday..that'll do the trick.

So you reach the last eight in the championship and you're telling me that you would rather play three matches rather than one match to get to the semi final ???
If you told a team in June that they had to play no games and that they'd go straight into the All-Ireland final I'd say they'd take that too.

The point is that players want to play more games during the summer months. It also makes it a more level playing field by making the path to the final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry more difficult. That's two problems that the Super 8 solves. If it creates a problem elsewhere then fair enough. But the claim is that the proposals tried to address some of the issues that GAA people had with the current system.

So do club players (the GAA majority).
I know. So what do you do? I see the Wicklow manager saying his players should go on strike because they only got two games last summer. The Wicklow club players will be able to play all of July, August and September next year. How do you keep everyone happy? What does the Wicklow manager want so that he gets more games? A second-tier championship that they can compete in? Nope, the very players he says are being treated like dogs don't want it.

So many complaints, so few answers.

A tiered championship is the answer. Yes teams always want to play in the Sam Maguire but if they want more meaningful games then a structure similar to the hurling championship must be introduced in football. Earn your right to compete.
Fine, but that won't pass at congress even with the 60% pass rate so, with respect, it's fairly pointless in 2017. Maybe in three years time it might be a runner but we're dealing with, and criticising, what's been passed in 2017.

I agree with that. However in three years time there will never be an appetite for the tiered system. If it had been treated the same way in hurling the structure would never have changed either. The decision had to be taken despite the protests.

You don't know what people will want in 3 years time and you don't know the tiered system will work in football. There's fairly clear tiers in hurling. Finally, Croke Park are getting abused to the high hilt for this fairly modest change and you thing they should have forced (how I don't know) a proposal through that would have had little or no support in congress?

As Esmarelda keeps pointing out, this was the only realistic change that was likely to get through congress. The more radical changes that most agree we need won't get through in one go. So criticisms have to be tempered by that reality if they are to be valid.

I suppose if you want to cut to the chase you'll probably find that it has a lot to do with an up and coming SKY deal  ;) lets not be naive

Zulu

I don't know if that's true but this super 8 also address some issues that needed addressing anyway.

ha ha derry

Quote from: Zulu on February 28, 2017, 12:35:40 PM
I don't know if that's true but this super 8 also address some issues that needed addressing anyway.

What issues are being addressed ? I'm at a loss.

The Trap

This is what the recent changes (last 2 years) will mean for club football in Tyrone in 2018:

County minors are not allowed to play for the club seniors until Tyrone are beat in minor championship (somewhere between end of May and end of August)
County minors are not allowed to train with the club at minor or senior level for the same period
17 year olds are not allowed to play for the club seniors/reserves
County Under 20s will be preparing for a summer championship match thus not training with the club and probably missing games for friendlies etc at the managers wishes.
County seniors will be playing O'Fiach Cup, McKenna Cup, National League, Ulster Championship and Super 8s if they qualify as expected. All of this has to be squeezed in by end of August.
In Tyrone there are usually 5 starred games to accommodate county players and they then play the rest of the club league games. Where are these club games going to be fitted into a compressed schedule? There wont be much of a gap between end of league and start of Ulster championship and between Ulster championship games and then on to qualifiers/super 8s.
The answer is there will be very little if any opportunity to play for the club.

For people who say that these proposals will help club football I think you don't understand the reality of the situation. Personally I have no time for the county scene any more but I know lots of people who go to county games that have no allegiance to any club. The fixtures makers in Tyrone already have a nightmare, we don't know the dates of any league or championship matches in any divisions and normally don't know what is happening from one week to the next. 2018 is going to be an absolute nightmare and it is only when we are going through it that people will realise the extent of the problem.

Anybody who can come back to me during/after the 2018 club season in Tyrone and can tell me any different to the nightmare scenario above I will be glad to say I was wrong.

From the Bunker

MYTHS

That super 8 is for the benefit of Club football.
That it is for the benefit of the weaker counties.
That it is for the benefit of the players.
That it makes it harder for Kerry/Dublin to win AI titles.
That Dublin would be asked to play outside Croker in Super 8.

REALITIES


Croker needs more big games to satisfy Vendors, Corporate Boxes, Sky TV, Dublin Media.
Dublin will only play Super 8 game outside Croker if game is a dead Rubber.
Leading counties Dublin/Kerry/Tyrone/Donegal/Mayo now get three chances.
To play games week in week out over the months of July and August needs huge player resources.
There is the cost on the fan?
The disruption of Holidays.
It's alright for Zulu and his fellow Dubs who will have all this on his doorstep with little peripheral cost or time.
How many backdoor routes can you create for to get a AI winner?

We already have all the Good teams playing each other in Division One of the League.
This is the Cup! Is the Cup not supposed to be Knockout?


The Reality is that the GAA want to Milk the Dublin Cash cow! When they are looking at the Big games they are looking at how many of the Good teams they can get playing Dublin and filling Croke Park.

Consecutive Draws between Mayo and Dublin have shown them the real money that can be mopped up from this.