Not born that way

[The Iceman]

Furthermore, you're not accepting the life style for yourself. You're to accept that this person you love has that lifestyle. So I'd challenge you to make some lists

What do I gain by not accepting my cousins gay life?
What do I lose by not accepting my cousins gay life?

What do I gain by accepting my cousins gay life?
What do I lose by accepting my cousins gay life?


I'd be curious as to what you think you lose in both accepting or not accepting.

I do accept thats the life he chooses - but I don't need to accept it as right.  The same way I wouldn't accept my Dad's lifestyle choice as right if he told me he was born a womanizer and it's who he is and he needs to have multiple women in his life besides my mother.

I'm still not sold on the nature argument but I appreciate your comments.

[seafoid]

Pat Carey had to hide who he was for years. So many older people did.

[muppet]

Some interesting reading here on sexual orientation:
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/authors/lawrence-mayer

The Journal is a well-known journal of science, technology and ethics based in Washington D.C.  This article analysed the scientific evidence of LGBT issues published to date in scientific journals.

The report was authored by two eminent scholars. Dr. Lawrence Mayer, a professor of psychiatry and statistics and biostatistics at Arizona State University, stated in the preface to the study that he has testified in dozens of federal and state legal proceedings strongly supporting equality and opposing discrimination for the LGBT Community. However, Dr. Mayer stated he supports every sentence in this report without reservation since it is about science and medicine.  He also stated he was alarmed to learn during his review of over 500 scientific articles that the LGBT community bears a disproportionate rate of mental health problems compared to the population as a whole.

The other author is Dr. Paul McHugh, one of the leading psychiatrists in the world. He was psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore from 1975 to 2001.  These scientists reviewed hundreds of peer reviewed studies on sexual orientation and gender identity from the biological, psychological and social sciences. 
Their conclusions were as follows:

- The belief that sexual orientation is an innate, biologically fixed human property – that people are "born that way" – is not supported by scientific evidence.
- The belief that gender identity is an innate, fixed human property independent of biological sex – so that a person might be a 'man trapped in a woman's body' or 'a woman trapped in a man's body' – is not supported by scientific evidence.
- Only a minority of children who express gender-atypical thoughts or behaviour will continue to do so into adolescence or adulthood. There is no evidence that all such children should be encouraged to become transgender, much less subjected to hormone treatments or surgery.
- Non-heterosexual and transgender people have higher rates of mental health problems (anxiety, depression, suicide), as well as behavioral and social problems (substance abuse, intimate partner violence), than the general population. Discrimination alone does not account for the entire disparity.

The belief that there is a God is not supported by scientific evidence
The belief that the earth is 5,500 years old is not supported by scientific evidence.

This stands out though: 'He also stated he was alarmed to learn during his review of over 500 scientific articles that the LGBT community bears a disproportionate rate of mental health problems compared to the population as a whole.'

This is the intellectual equivalent of 'the beatings will continue until morale improves'. The innuendo here is that there is something wrong with these people and thus LGBT behaviour is probably just another symptom.

Of course they suffer a disproportionate rate of problems, they are persistently abused by religion and (fake) science.

[sid waddell]

The other author is Dr. Paul McHugh, one of the leading psychiatrists in the world. He was psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore from 1975 to 2001. 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/06/16/the_wall_street_journal_displays_shocking_ignorance_about_lgbtq_issues.html

McHugh, an eightysomething self-described "orthodox" Catholic, who shut down Johns Hopkins' pioneering Gender Identity Clinic in the 1970s after a single study suggested that some trans people continued to suffer from adjustment challenges after surgery, has a storied history of using his credentialed respectability to peddle the worst, most discredited, myths about gay and transgender people. He has called homosexuality an "erroneous desire," filed an amicus brief to the Supreme Court in opposition to marriage equality, casts transgender women as "caricatures" of real women, and has argued that the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal is the result not of covering up pedophiles but of insufficiently rooting out gay people. In short, he is a dinosaur from an era when psychiatrists relied on narrow, clinical assessments to assert broad generalizations about a whole class of people based on studying the small number who came to them because they already had mental health problems.

http://www.virtueonline.org/charleston-sc-dr-paul-mchugh-there-no-gay-gene

It really is amazing ... I mean, 50 years ago [homosexual behavior] was a crime, and now we're talking about [same-sex marriage]. Anyone who wants to stick with the tradition is accused of being a biblical literalist or a homophobic racist, because, in part, of the more fundamental change in our society towards permissiveness, that is, easy divorce, cohabitation and concubinage, abortion, pornography ... and euthanasia. The issue of the homosexual is not separate ... it's all part and parcel of the pandemonium that the permissive movement has brought. We have just licensed all kinds of behavior."

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Not a big fan of this song of Gaga's - prefer Poker Face myself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESGLojNYSo

[trileacman]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

[J70]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Is intolerance of intolerance wrong?

[gallsman]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Maybe if he hadn't started off the thread by peddling a crackpot theory from a bunch of right wing nuts as some sort of neutral science, he might have some credit in the bank.

As for accepting his cousin's homosexually, I don't think anyone has told him he has to accept it. They've merely questioned on what grounds he wouldn't. It's a discussion board, if you don't like people disagreeing with you every now and again, f**k off somewhere else.

[seafoid]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Say it wasn't sexuality. Say it was religion. Someone Iceman knew wanted to be identified as Protestant. And Iceman couldn't accept it. What business is it of Iceman's ? 

[Hardy]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Say it wasn't sexuality. Say it was religion. Someone Iceman knew wanted to be identified as Protestant. And Iceman couldn't accept it. What business is it of Iceman's ? 

Indeed. How does Iceman get to accept or reject whatever he is proposing to accept or reject? What does it mean if he doesn't accept? What happens?

[michaelg]

Regarding trans would there by that many that way inclined if the op wasn't available, nor the gaffer tape to hold it under the arse!

What a f**king pathetic post.  I can just imagine you giggling to yourself as you typed this juvenile, purile shite.

[sid waddell]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Is intolerance of intolerance wrong?

Is intolerance of wrongness intolerance?

[The Iceman]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Maybe if he hadn't started off the thread by peddling a crackpot theory from a bunch of right wing nuts as some sort of neutral science, he might have some credit in the bank.

As for accepting his cousin's homosexually, I don't think anyone has told him he has to accept it. They've merely questioned on what grounds he wouldn't. It's a discussion board, if you don't like people disagreeing with you every now and again, f**k off somewhere else.

I copied and pasted the summary gman i t wasn't my summary of the article but I thought it a fair summary.  It's all interesting reading and worth looking at. I'm sorry if it itsn't your go to source...

[seafoid]

There's some f**king shite wrote in this thread.

If Iceman is expected to accept his cousins lifestyle why can some of the posters not accept that Iceman doesn't accept his cousins lifestlyle.

As Yeats said with his Tongue firmly in his cheek " I can tolerate anything except intolerance."

Say it wasn't sexuality. Say it was religion. Someone Iceman knew wanted to be identified as Protestant. And Iceman couldn't accept it. What business is it of Iceman's ? 

Indeed. How does Iceman get to accept or reject whatever he is proposing to accept or reject? What does it mean if he doesn't accept? What happens?

Paul Singer is a Scrooge McDuck financier in New York. Very religious. And he was vehemently opposed to homosexuality. Then his son revealed he was gay. Damascene conversion.

[Asal Mor]

I don't mind anyone else doing whatever flicks their switch, but I find it appalling that the HSE pays big money for people to have sex change operations (as well as travel costs post-op therapy costs) while people with life-threatening and life-ruining illnesses are sitting on eternal waiting lists.