The Super(ish) Leeds United Thread

Started by Rufus T Firefly, January 25, 2007, 08:14:53 PM

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AZOffaly

I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

smelmoth

#466
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:38:06 PM
Again, the manager is being told the money is there. Is he supposed to bring in his own auditors to make sure? What should he have done?

I wouldn't go confusing "asking basic questions" and "bringing in the auditors"

If I was bringing in someone from a competitor and trying to get them to sign a long-term contract I would want to know that the wages would be paid and the ambitions stood some chance of being realized.

If I was taking the adulation of the fans and spending unprecedented wads of cash then I would seek out the reassurances that we weren't pissing on their dreams

gallsman

My favourite Leed's story, true or not, was the one about Ridsdale's, eh, tough negotiation with Seth Johnson and his agent.

smelmoth

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:47:41 PM
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Billys Boots

But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault. 
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...

Rufus T Firefly

The Guardian did an investigation into this whole sorry saga a good number of years ago. It's a long but (I think) interesting read.

smelmoth

Quote from: Billys Boots on November 02, 2015, 03:06:08 PM
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

That was no different to borrowing the money off Ranson and buying the players outright

AZOffaly

Quote from: Billys Boots on November 02, 2015, 03:06:08 PM
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

'Sactly. I think smelmoth is putting way too much emphasis on O'Leary's role in all this. He probably thought he was on the pig's back.

AZOffaly

Quote from: smelmoth on November 02, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:47:41 PM
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

smelmoth

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 03:15:31 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 02, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:47:41 PM
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

Billys Boots

Quote from: smelmoth on November 02, 2015, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on November 02, 2015, 03:06:08 PM
But you see, there was a credible story about where the money was coming from - the 'Ray Ranson' model was talked about as the new and better way to finance transfer deals.  It wasn't, but that's hardly Dave O'Leary's fault.

That was no different to borrowing the money off Ranson and buying the players outright

It certainly was. 
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...

AZOffaly

Quote from: smelmoth on November 02, 2015, 03:23:01 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 03:15:31 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 02, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:47:41 PM
I never said it was a positive. That's a straw man right there. What I said was O'Leary is not the main culprit. And you haven't answered my question. What should he, or any football manager, have done to ensure there was adequate finance?

Still doesn't let you off the hook. When has has an exponential increase in spending with no credible explanation of where the money has come from ever worked out?

Why do I need to be off the hook for you misunderstanding what I said? :)

In your defence of O'Leary I have asked you to point to any positive examples of exponential increases in spending without a credible explanation of where the money is coming from. Surely if there isn't such an example then he looks foolish at best

My whole defence of O'Leary is that it was not part of his responsibility to ensure the finances of the club were above board. His responsibility lay in identifying players, working within the budget set, and getting the most out of them on the field.

Whether he was clued in to the backroom dealings of the club at ownership and director level is a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

So, exponential increases without an explanation of where the money is coming from is not a sustainable business model.
David O'Leary's role is not to query the business model, it is to invest the funds he is given wisely and get the most out of them.


Dinny Breen

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!
#newbridgeornowhere

screenexile

Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 02, 2015, 03:54:06 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!

He's the complete opposite of O'Leary... the club are in rude health and he still won't spend the money!!

Dinny Breen

Quote from: screenexile on November 02, 2015, 04:00:13 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 02, 2015, 03:54:06 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 02, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
If you are a manager, and told you can spend millions to get the best players in, you wouldn't spend it?

You'd be in a minority of one I'd say
. I doubt David O'Leary negotiated wage deals with individual players, and if I remember correctly, a lot of their problems were due to stupid personal terms they negotiated with players.

Wenger!

He's the complete opposite of O'Leary... the club are in rude health and he still won't spend the money!!

And he's probably right, he came through a period where they had to finance a new stadium. He was never a buying manager, he only buys when he feels the player can improve the team not because the supporters/media demand it and he feels there is value. He did buy Sanchez and Ozil and his only signing this year has been a 33 year old goal keeper who has so far been the signing of the season. A good coach/manager can improve players, a bad coach/manager feels the only solution is to buy. A manager is protected by his contract therefore I think the point selmothis making is that has to have some sense of future planning and be responsible with the club finances and player pathways.
#newbridgeornowhere