Mother and Baby Home Report

[five points]

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

The dogs on the street doesn't count as evidence, as far as history is concerned.

[johnnycool]

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

The dogs on the street doesn't count as evidence, as far as history is concerned.

If you don't go looking for something you'll also never find it.

[five points]

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

The dogs on the street doesn't count as evidence, as far as history is concerned.

If you don't go looking for something you'll also never find it.

Almost 3,000 pages of a report and they didn't do their homework?   

[Baile Brigín 2]

The report was written in a typical bureaucratic style about a historic atrocity. Redress required. It ignored a large part of the victim input. People unhappy

And then after a poor response from the victims to there report, deleted their testimony.

'My testimony directly contradicts your findings, as does the testimony of others'

'What testimony?'

[Baile Brigín 2]

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

The dogs on the street doesn't count as evidence, as far as history is concerned.

Seems to if the dogs are nuns.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/michael-viney-my-1964-no-birthright-series-on-unmarried-mothers-left-half-the-story-untold-1.4461506

Interviewing the mother superiors, however, over tea in polished parlours, I was on unfamiliar ground. As the State's vocational and spiritual carers, I believed nuns to be kind, benign people and too readily accepted appearances and what I was told, such as: "Moral censure...is no part of our work. We're here to help, not lecture."

Thus, I could suggest that the mother and baby homes had "an unfavourable, out-of-date image...of a forbiddingly austere institution in which the unmarried mother is likely to be shut away for two years or more, doing useless work in the laundry at the bidding of censorious nuns". The position had changed, I went on, since adoption and washing machines. I could leave a home with the impression of "a fairly good class boarding school for girls". I was perhaps totally misled by the appearance of the convent.

None of this was tested by seeking out young mothers who had actually experienced the care of the homes – not that any of them, at that time, would have been eager to talk to me. All had accepted the secret service I described as "a benevolent conspiracy of unexpected thoroughness and ingenuity".

[johnnycool]

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

The dogs on the street doesn't count as evidence, as far as history is concerned.

If you don't go looking for something you'll also never find it.

Almost 3,000 pages of a report and they didn't do their homework?   

Maybe the dog ate it.

Lack of records from these institutions has been noted. You think that's just poor record keeping?

Take for instance the lack of paperwork in relation to all of gods children buried in Tuam!!

[Main Street]

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

The dogs on the street doesn't count as evidence, as far as history is concerned.

If you don't go looking for something you'll also never find it.

Almost 3,000 pages of a report and they didn't do their homework?   

No they did not do their homework  they copped out of and avoided  contentious issue resulting in a crude and obvious cover up,
Did you read the report and evaluate the evidence? Did you take into account the criticism from Catherine Corless and many of those  closely associated with the issue over the years? 
The report "fails to find that mothers were coerced into giving up their children", saying it instead refers to some mother who claim they did not properly consent." and   the babies were not swapped for cash ,the report ignored  the scale of forced and illegal adoptions and the State's role in same.
The report finds the women were not physically abused,  ,
Mother's say their testimony recorded  in the the report was distorted and edited and now they have trashed all the 500 oral submissions. The investigations on the adoptions and infant mortality rates was lackluster. .
Mother's say the report does match their experience.

Go do your own research and see how easy it is to find evidence of the adoption fees paid along with the generous donations paid to local church in the USA, starting from USD 1,000 upwards, or would you rather put equal value  to the  contrary evidence emanating from the convent of liars.
The report says impossible to prove or disprove, what a load of tosh,   just print the evidence of the adoptees and adopters  on the matter of fees and bungs paid.

[five points]

Did you read the report and evaluate the evidence?

I've read bits of it, not all 2,850-odd pages. You?

Did you take into account the criticism from Catherine Corless and many of those  closely associated with the issue over the years?   

Who elected Catherine Corless to run the show? She's not even a qualified historian.

The report "fails to find that mothers were coerced into giving up their children", saying it instead refers to some mother who claim they did not properly consent." and   the babies were not swapped for cash

the report ignored  the scale of forced and illegal adoptions and the State's role in same.

The report finds the women were not physically abused, 

Some evidence for these strong (and presumably easily verifiable) assertions would be nice.

Mother's say their testimony recorded  in the the report was distorted and edited and now they have trashed all the 500 oral submissions. The investigations on the adoptions and infant mortality rates was lackluster. .
Mother's say the report does match their experience.

Who are these "mothers"? Is this a cut & paste from somewhere else? If so, where?

Go do your own research and see how easy it is to find evidence of the adoption fees paid along with the generous donations paid to local church in the USA, starting from USD 1,000 upwards,

If it's easy to find, it's easy to link.

or would you rather put equal value  to the  contrary evidence emanating from the convent of liars.

Oops, your bias is showing.

The report says impossible to prove or disprove, what a load of tosh,   just print the evidence of the adoptees and adopters  on the matter of fees and bungs paid.

Uncorroborated testimony is not evidence.

[Lar Naparka]

I'm surprised that with all that has been said or written about the actions od the nuns involved and the politicians of the time, nothing had ben brought up about the mindset of the hierarchy during the ate 19th and early 20 th century.
To put it mildly, the bishops and the upper echelons of the clergy were well to the right of Oliver Cromwell on moral matters.That would be put down to the effect of the heresy of Jansenism on the Irish Church.
Irish Catholic society was strictly segregated at the time so there was a wide gap between the poor, those slightly more prosperous and the middle classes, shopkeepers, big farmers and merchants ans the likes.
When it came to vocations for the priesthood, the poor didn't count; those a few steps above them could shovell a son off to All Hallows, Maynooth and the likes.
HOwever, the sons of those with a bit of money in the bank wouldn/t dream of mixing with the lower classes nad would be sent to Salamanca in Spain or Louvain in Belgium.
Problem here was that many of the teachers at Louvain followed the teachings of a theologian named Jansen. Jansenism denied  free will and maintained that human nature is corrupt and that Christ died for the elect and not for all humanity.
So, many who were ordained at Louvain were tainted and as only priests from the middle classes got positions of power island influence in the Irish Church, the general mindset wasn't a liberal one. Johnny the blacksmith's son was hardly likely to become a parish priest of any well to do parish and a curacy in a one horse town was about all he could expect.
But the upper tier controlled all Caathilic schools and the children were influenced by Jansenist teachers. When they became adults their children followed in their wake and Irish society became far less liberal than was the case in mainland Carhoilc countries.
Incidentally, Jansenism was condemned by several popes as heresy.
Girl conceiving out of wedlock was a big no-no. It meant the devil was hard at work trying to ensnare souls and the poor girls were occasions of sin and had to be removed from society asap.
As politicians had passed through the Irish educational system, they were as merciless as their clerical counterparts.

Claptrap. My father grew up in a single-chimney cottage on a small farm and his uncle, who grew up in the same cottage a generation earlier, studied in Salamanca by getting a diocesan scholarship there. The blacksmith had a bigger farm than they had.

My father's uncle is still revered in one of the poorest parishes of the county for building them a modest but beautiful church, which he financed by donations from emigrants from the locality.

Go back and check what I wrote. I said Louvain, not Salamanca.
You'll find what I wrote about Jansenism in any reputable history of the Irish Catholic Church. It's presented on the University degree course.. (In UCD anyway.)
Also,, while your dad's uncle may have been a man before his time, it would be hard to name many, if any,  who were like him.
Even if your father's uncle had come  from a humble background, it cannot be taken that this was the rule and not the exception.
In other words, one swallow doesn't mean summer has arrived.

BTW Any idea where your grandunce got the money to pay for his studies at Salamanca?

[Rossfan]

Wasn't it an oul tradition among the townie  business class and presumably big farmers that number 1 son got the business/farm while no 2 son was sent to Maynooth?
Any small farmer or worker's son had to go to a Missionary order if he was going for the Priesthood.

[trileacman]

Wasn't it an oul tradition among the townie  business class and presumably big farmers that number 1 son got the business/farm while no 2 son was sent to Maynooth?
Any small farmer or worker's son had to go to a Missionary order if he was going for the Priesthood.

That shite of "the eldest got the farm, the next soon was packed off to the priesthood" annoys much f**king head. Where  it even remotely close to being true every f**king one of us would have an uncle a priest. This sindo cliche is peddled around by every Tom dick and Harry as if in 1950s Ireland 50% of men were priest and the other 50% farmers.

It's such bullshit bearing no resemblance to the historical truth but seems to have been somehow accepted as accurate representation of Ireland.

[Rossfan]

Take your tablets.
Townie business class and big farmers were a small percentage of the population.

[Lar Naparka]

Wasn't it an oul tradition among the townie  business class and presumably big farmers that number 1 son got the business/farm while no 2 son was sent to Maynooth?
Any small farmer or worker's son had to go to a Missionary order if he was going for the Priesthood.

I kinda mentioned all this Ross. To be  fair, I forgot to mention the missionary orders but that's where many of the priests who didn't have rich daddies had to go. But those with very rich daddies would be sent to the most prestigious European seminaries.
Anyone remotely interested in Jansenism and its effect on the Catholic Church in Ireland can follow those links.
NB Townies and big business people may have been smal in number but they had a huge amount of influence on a aspects of Irish society.

Diarmaid Ferriter: Irish Catholicism is rooted in class prejudice
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-irish-catholicism-is-rooted-in-class-prejudice-1.3606614
Why Irish Catholic Church became haven for child abuse
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/why-irish-catholic-church-became-haven-for-child-abuse-237643241#:~:text=The%20Catholic%20Church%20in%20Ireland%20became%20an%20outpost,body%20pure%20was%20the%20greatest%20gift%20to%20God.

Anyone who bothers to google for "jansenism and the irish catholic church" will get an assload of links to back up what I have said.

[johnnycool]

Wasn't it an oul tradition among the townie  business class and presumably big farmers that number 1 son got the business/farm while no 2 son was sent to Maynooth?
Any small farmer or worker's son had to go to a Missionary order if he was going for the Priesthood.

If they were half smart they were dispatched to St Malachy's (Belfast) if from our area.

Any effeminate ones were dispatched to the priesthood for sure.