Brexit: Stop border controls petition

[muppet]

I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.

This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.

And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.

Is that on the ballot paper?

Don't go all Fearon, you know very well what is on the ballot paper.

As immigration is one concern of those promoting leave, and slogans such as regaining control of borders abound, then actions in this regard after a Brexit would seem a strong possibility.

The border in the 6 counties is a side effect of the ballot. We all know it is mainly little Englanders who want this and they couldn't give a fiddlers about Unionists or anyone else.

[ludermor]

Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.

Unless these have taken out British citizenship, they won't have a vote, so their opinion is immaterial.

i didn't know that, i got the polling card through the door so assumed all people registered could vote. After your post looked it up and irish, Cyprus and Malta citizen but resident in uk can vote

[Farrandeelin]

I'm getting hitched in Enniskillen in July. If a Brexit goes ahead, I hope they leave the border open for a few days after.

[ludermor]

Cannot see a Brexit either. A very straightforward win to stay I think. English very conservative by nature. North and midlands to vote very heavily to stay.

Big winner will be Corbyn and to a  much lesser degree Cameron (insofar as he will have seen off one rival but will have seen the Tories split again ................ not really his fault but the can couldn't have been kicked down the street any further).

I wouldn't be so sure. i work in London and the majority of English people i have spoken to would vote to leave. There are huge areas of old conservative England who want nothing to do with Europe as well as the large number of Military Towns. UKIP had a massive number of individual votes in the last election which did not translate to seats but they are far more popular than the press would have you believe.
Against all this there are a huge amount of europeans living and working in London and the vast majority of those i have spoken to would vote to stay.

UKIP got 12.6% of the vote last year. They also had no shortage of press coverage.

the full 12.5% is almost certain to vote out. It reduces the numbers needed from other parties substantially

[yellowcard]

Based on bookies odds the current likelihood of a vote to leave is 22% as opposed to 78% to stay. Meaning that it's not very likely that there will be a Brexit unless the stay side monumentally mess up in the remaining few weeks of the campaign.

[armaghniac]

Based on bookies odds the current likelihood of a vote to leave is 22% as opposed to 78% to stay. Meaning that it's not very likely that there will be a Brexit unless the stay side monumentally mess up in the remaining few weeks of the campaign.

Sterling dropped rapidly today when an adverse poll came out.

[seafoid]

Brexit woukd be a tragedy. The UK needs economic reform, not Brexit.

[seafoid]

http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/corby-man-forced-to-abandon-mum-s-body-in-funeral-parlour-1-7408149

[armaghniac]

http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/corby-man-forced-to-abandon-mum-s-body-in-funeral-parlour-1-7408149

I'm not sure what this has to do with Brexit, but it is a clear sign that England is a foreign country.

[LeoMc]

I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.

This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.

And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.

If someone travels from France to the UK they need to go through a checkpoint. If they go to Ireland they need to go through a checkpoint. From the UK they can travel freely to Ireland and vice versa.
In the event of a brexit what changes?

[muppet]

I am speculating that Britain and Ireland will simply agree a similar process whereby people arriving in Dublin or London for example will be approved as qualifying for entry into both countries without the need for a further border or security check. Of course I could be wrong but considering the cost and the risk of trouble, I think both countries would quickly do a deal.

This is already in place and predates the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

That is the second time someone has posted the Wikipedia article on the Common Travel area, which rather trivialises the whole thing. The issue is not that the UK will stop Irish people going there, or even require documents of them. The issue is whether the wish of the UK to stop people passing through Ireland leads to additional checkpoints somewhere. The alternatives are at the border, which isn't really a runner or a Stranraer, which will piss off the unionists, but is more likely.

And that is aside from the disruption possible from some sort of customs bollix.

If someone travels from France to the UK they need to go through a checkpoint. If they go to Ireland they need to go through a checkpoint. From the UK they can travel freely to Ireland and vice versa.
In the event of a brexit what changes?

I am betting nothing. If there is a technical hitch in the short term, it will be fixed quickly.

[armaghniac]

If someone travels from France to the UK they need to go through a checkpoint. If they go to Ireland they need to go through a checkpoint. From the UK they can travel freely to Ireland and vice versa.
In the event of a brexit what changes?

What changes is that the UK decides that all Romanians need a visa, as too many of them are visiting as tourists and working illegally. So the Romanians fly to Dublin and head up to Larne.

What changes it that Ireland is sharing information with the UK, and the EU is not likely to be happy with sharing information with a no EU country on EU citizens travelling within the EU .

Of course the UK might sight up to EFTA and have movement of people anyway, but if they do that it is hardly worth the trouble of all this palaver.

[seafoid]

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b2a04094-27dc-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde.html

There are two unions whose fortunes rest on the outcome of the June 23 referendum. If Britain chooses Brexit the consequences will be serious, though probably not terminal, for the 27 remaining members of Europe's union. Germany and France are doubtless thinking hard about how best to underscore the cohesion of the rest of the EU. The second union — that of the nations of the United Kingdom — would be at greater risk from the centrifugal forces of a Leave vote.

The Outs have become the voice of strident English nationalism. The Conservative-led Leave campaign has all but abandoned the considered case for quitting the EU to throw in its lot with the populists of Nigel Farage's UK Independence party. The shared message is anti-immigrant, anti-establishment, anti-intellectual and anti-just about anything you care to think of. Call it project anger.

Whatever the overall outcome, the nations and regions of the UK will not vote as one. A glance at the geography of British opinion suggests that three areas are all but certain to back maintaining the present relationship with Europe. London, Northern Ireland and Scotland all show clear pro-European majorities. Wales is harder to call.

London's continental tilt is one of self-description. The capital has thrived as a global city, welcoming workers and migrants from across Europe and the world. London is France's sixth-largest city, welcoming up to 300,000 French citizens. It offers a second — and sometimes a first — home to Italians, Poles, Spanish, Portuguese and many others, as well as to those arriving from more distant shores.

The city is comfortable in its diversity. The recent mayoral election saw the Conservative candidate Zac Goldsmith wage a shamefully Islamophobic campaign. Londoners turned out in record numbers to back Sadiq Khan, a British-born Muslim.


Shared membership of the EU was integral to the success of the British and Irish governments in coaxing nationalists and unionists towards peace

The capital has none of the self-consciously starched Englishness of the affluent, Brexit-leaning home counties. And though London includes pockets of considerable poverty, they lack the ethnic grievance apparent in the poor towns dotted along southern England's eastern coast. My guess is that, confronted with the choice, most Londoners would apply visa controls to visitors from its native (mostly white) hinterlands before shutting off the flow of Polish doctors and Indian engineers.

Northern Ireland, where recent polls have pointed towards a big majority in favour of Remain, has different concerns. As for many things, Europe is viewed through at least two sets of lenses. Broadly speaking, the Catholic, mainly nationalist community is overwhelmingly European in its outlook. Protestant unionists are more evenly divided, with polls suggesting a bias towards Brexit. Overall, the province will vote to remain.


A UK-wide Brexit vote that wrenched Scotland out of the EU against its will would be a gift to pro-independence nationalists

A UK-wide vote to sunder ties with Brussels would destabilise a part of the UK still bearing the scars of sectarian violence. Shared membership of the EU was integral to the success of the British and Irish governments in coaxing nationalists and unionists towards peace. Rising prosperity in the north has been built on an open border with the Republic and, of course, on generous grants and investment incentives from Brussels.

Brexit would transform an invisible frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic into the external border between the UK and the EU. The UK's departure from the single market and the imposition of immigration curbs would require the return of cross-border checks on people and trade. And should Scotland press again for independence, how long would it be before the English began to see Northern Ireland as an unwelcome economic burden? This is the sort of reasoning that has persuaded the government of Gibraltar to throw its weight behind the pro-European side.


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Euroscepticism has never really taken root in Scotland, perhaps because of its association with the English nationalists on the Tory right. Mr Farage's Ukip has made only limited headway. So, like London and Northern Ireland, Scotland seems assured of a sizeable pro-European majority. A UK-wide Brexit vote that wrenched Scotland out of the EU against its will would be a gift to pro-independence nationalists.

None of the mitigating forces suggest voting Leave is remotely a risk worth contemplating

After failing to win an independence vote in 2014, the governing Scottish National party suffered a setback in last year's elections to the Edinburgh parliament. It lost its overall majority and with it the authority to call another independence referendum. But Britain's departure from Europe would re-energise the argument. The prospect of a Scotland shackled to an England that had thrown up barricades against the continent would make erstwhile unionists think again.

So they should. The case for the UK union is much the same as that for UK membership of the EU: by pooling sovereignty, nations increase their capacity to act effectively. If England left the EU it would make eminent sense for Scotland to swap one union for another.

It is too soon to speak of an independent London, though looking beyond Brexit it is not hard to see the capital demanding much greater autonomy. What does seem clear is that a Leave vote would intensify the political fragmentation of the UK union. Without Europe, the Brits may decide, Britain looks a much less attractive proposition.

[seafoid]

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/99e23cba-27eb-11e6-8ba3-cdd781d02d89.html

Sir, I do not want to play into the fears of citizens or patriots. Europe is a superb utopia, a grand plan that has managed to keep conflicts at bay for decades. No politician — whatever the country or the party — can afford to play with it. And to be honest, I am quite irritated by David Cameron's manoeuvre to serve some selfish career plans. Europe should make us humble — we are building history, like some founding fathers before us.
Europe is not about cutting away or entrenching yourself. It is about joining, underpinning, embracing and leading by example. You have to know where you stand when it comes to the European project. If, by the actions or inertness of one, we never know which way the wind is blowing, it's the whole foundation that tumbles. For two years the UK prime minister has imposed his referendum on 500m people, for two years Europe has stalled.
Let's be clear. It is also our fault, all of us. We should take responsibility and not scapegoat someone else — even Mr Cameron. The French engine backfired and is tired. The German engine is full steam ahead — while a German Europe is in the interest of no one, not even Germany. In a nutshell, we failed when it comes to living up to the dream.
Facts are twisted by politicians and the media to such an extent that, whatever the outcome, we'll be losing as Europeans. Britain stays in — a bitter taste will prevail. Should a Brexit happen, we'll waste two years tearing each other apart, like in a nasty divorce, instead of building things.
That's a key topic, in my view. The terms of an exit will be tough. Don't expect the EU to be a wet noodle. EU members will be unanimous about the UK paying the price of treachery. German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble was crystal clear on that point; continental business leaders are clear (Letters, May 31); I am clear as well.
This will come on top of Scotland, on top of the City, on top of the UK accounting for 78 per cent of EU foreign exchange trading. Some might call it a threat. It's not, these are stubborn and mechanistic facts.
I do hope the UK will stay in. As a European citizen, how could I wish otherwise? Britain sailed the oceans, was at the forefront of the industrial revolution, built an empire and dismantled it in an ordered manner. And today, to be an islander would be synonymous with withdrawal? Nay. On Trafalgar Square in London, Lord Nelson stands guard. And although Trafalgar was a stinging defeat for France, I am quite happy the admiral stands there as a reminder of the daring glory you keep building in the open.
Maurice Lévy
Chief Executive Officer,

[armaghniac]

I think Guardian readers are fairly convinced.