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Well done Harps, lost a couple of county finals in the 80s scoring just a couple of points in the first half, was looking bad there for a bit but yis pulled through, na clairsigh abu

Carragher with the third goal, 3-7 to 0.11 with about 5 minutes to go, looks like game over (Jamie Clarke got the first goal, not sure about the second)

HT: Cross 2.3, Ogs 0.7

goals in the first minute and the last minute for Cross, Ogs 1.1 down within a minute but hauled themselves back into it. needly game. All to play for but Cross in the driving seat.   

You kind of proved my point again here Puskas. Belgium as yet have not qualified for anything. Nor have Hungary not Switzerland. So in terms of improvement there's been no markers hit.

Coaching and systems are hugely important.

But in countries the size of Ireland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, the ability to compete on the world stage will always be cyclical. 3-4 players come along at once who are either world class talents or something close to it, and not only can you play winning football, you can play nice football too.

Poland had it in the 70s, so did the Czechs.

Belgium had it in the eighties, so did Ireland and Denmark towards the end. Bulgaria and Norway had it in the nineties. And so on.


Where I fundamentally disagree with you is how you set up your team during the lean years. If your players aren't good enough to take on the better teams toe to toe with nice football, you must employ other methods. You win games, you keep your coefficient up, and when natural along filters in again, the hard work is not climbing the rankings again.

I mustn't be explaining myself well here. You say "coaching and systems are hugely important" but then seem to dismiss any point in bothering with that by saying it all depends on the arrival of 3 or 4 talents. where these 3 or 4 are expected to come from if you don't overhaul your structures and try to compete with the best, God only knows. Germany did it after Euro 2000, Spain did it in the early-90s. The examples I gave above were of smaller countries that Ireland could look to as models for baby steps improvements. Never happen in Ireland though with our "natural" predisposition to be shit at football and grateful for the crack when we hoof our way into a tournament every decade.

here's an article today on how the Spanish did it. http://euro2012.irishexaminer.com/analysis/spanish-template-shows-the-way-forward-for-ireland-197692.html

"One famed foreign coach was watching an Irish U-21 game, he turned to the official beside him and just scoffed: "Watch here. This guy will just get it, put his head down and run with it." The player did exactly that. And we saw the ultimate results of it all in Gdansk. "

Someone above challenged my use of the word embarrassing to describe Ireland. Well if Irish fans aren't embarrassed by how we play, then we deserve all the stuffings we get.           

Puskas seeing as you haven't given one example of a country rebuilding their football ethos that has actually gained success, I declare your theory a pile of sh1te.

Thanks for the considered response wobbler!

not sure i had a theory unless you mean my suggestion that Ireland over a bit of time should be able to lift the quality of the football they play. u disagree? not sure what you mean by rebuilding an ethos.

Pre-Jack Charlton Ireland were playing less agriculturally. You could argue what Ireland have been playing since then is alien to the original ethos, so it would be returning to not rebuilding the ethos.

if it's examples of teams improving, how many do you want? On international level, Belgium are coming back, Hungary have invested a lot in academies and will probably show up at the next Euros if not the World Cup. Cyprus are no longer a minnow. Turkey, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland were all minnows and whipping boys when I was a kid in the 80s, they're all now medium to upper-medium sides looking to qualify. The point is that all these sides, not even Norway, do not resort to the type of shite, ugly, stupid football that Ireland is now sadly world famous for.   

Would Croatia allow dual nationality in a manner that would encourage players to declare for them? I encountered a guy in college who was German born-and-bred but his passport was Croatian. Neither country would allow him hold the passport of the other and seeing as he wanted to protect inheritance rights he had back in the old country he plumped for Croatian citizenship

Their striker Eduardo is an out-and-out Brazilian who declared for them out of convenience when he moved to Dinamo Zagreb but don't know how generally easy it is. Joe Simunic, their old defensive stalwart from 98  is still around, hasn't got any playing time yet, he's an Aussie originally now that I think of it, Croatian parents though. It's not exactly Tony Cascarino and Chris Morris.       

Anyone know how many Croatia players are from the Diaspora ?

But overall I don't think you are going to see small countries consistently excelling at this level.

No-one in the Croatian squad is from the diaspora. Can't think of any from the diaspora who has ever played for them.  They do get Croatian-Bosnians declaring for them, so there is a bit of a demographic bounce from that but that's only the odd one here and there, like a James McClean every few years.

And by the way, I'd like to think Armagh, small as it is, hasn't been a "small" GAA county since pre-1977 if ever, no offence to Longoford who you also mentioned in your example ;-)

There's no rugby, gaelic-football or hurling to 'compete' for the talent in Croatia.

not good enough BB, handball (Olympic), basketball, and water-polo are all big spectator sports in Croatia, all competing for the talent and the cash. and then there's tennis. and they excel at all of these. amazing sports people actually Croatians, Serbs etc   

Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, Turkey and Slovakia have bigger populations than the 26 counties and are watching the tournament at home .

Belgium have been shite for at least a decade. Austria hasn't had a decent team for longer than that. 
Talented teams come around every so often for smaller countries. It's the same in the GAA for counties like Longford and Armagh.   
Croatia will be back in the doldrums at some stage. England won't win anything .

we're getting stuck on qualifying for tournaments being a greater goal than being able to play decent football. Achieve this and you'll reap the reward in the long-term, and qualify for tournaments

Slovakia is more or less the same size as Ireland, has a struggling low-income post-communist economy but can sustain a professional league get teams in the Champions League every other year, and outplayed and outthought Italy at the last World Cup.     

Belgium are on the way back up after a long period in the doldrums (and taking time out to restructure and rebuild), have shit hot youth teams and should comfortably qualify for the next World Cup.

Austria and Switzerland are mediocre I 'll grant you, although the Swiss beat Germany 3-0 a few weeks ago, something Ireland would never ever be able to do the way things are.

It's the level of the above countries plus the Scandinavians that Ireland should be aspiring to reach, Turkey's a different league altogether.

Are the Athletic Grounds the best ground in Ulster at the moment? Who'd have thunk it a few years back.   

The other outcome is the slide to Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales level, i.e. the same old same old only without a canny manager and without qualification. People aspire to (a) and think it's great because it's better than not qualifying and sure you can have a bit of craic every 2 or 4 years on the Continent.

Ireland's natural level is not to qualify. So (a) would be pretty darn good.

if the goal is merely to qualify then it is pretty darn good, but now that we've got there, have you enjoyed the tournament from an Irish perspective?

and why should Ireland have a 'natural' level not to qualify anyway? does Croatia have a "natural" level? Denmark? they're not bigger countries, they're not more special 'naturally' talented than us, are they?

Question for you: Ireland qualified again for this one after missing out on the last 4 tournaments.  Now which would you prefer (a) Ireland reach the next 4 tournaments with the same outcome as this one (b) they miss the next four tournaments but reach the fifth one with a new generation of kids who can play intelligent creative football.

Is that what the choice is? No other possible outcomes for Irish soccer?

The other outcome is the slide to Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales level, i.e. the same old same old only without a canny manager and without qualification. People aspire to (a) and think it's great because it's better than not qualifying and sure you can have a bit of craic every 2 or 4 years on the Continent.

Your preference would be to not bother entering the Euros or the World Cup? Correct?

No. Are you willfully missing the point? You support the team and hope they qualify which they did BUT they are shite, depressing and they leave me cold.

Are you saying people should just move on with an "ah they did their best" and try to scuff and hoof their way through the next qualification campaign?

Question for you: Ireland qualified again for this one after missing out on the last 4 tournaments.  Now which would you prefer (a) Ireland reach the next 4 tournaments with the same outcome as this one (b) they miss the next four tournaments but reach the fifth one with a new generation of kids who can play intelligent creative football. 

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that's an absolute crock of sh1t. Whats the point in entering a competition? The team got there on merit. The chances are Spain are gonna win the tournament, if not, come very close. The only people who seem to be embarrassed are the usual Irish begrudgers or those who (while being soccer fans) only support a successful English premier team were the size of their rod is direct correlation to success of said English premier league team . Primitive people, really?
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yes they qualified and got there on merit you can argue. how did they qualify though? was it a "miracle that Trap even got us that far"as I've been hearing. Was getting past Armenia and Estonia a miracle? they got lucky to be in one the softest groups. they got the only soft draw in the play-offs. Ireland haven't beaten anyone decent in a generation. they are unable to hold on to the ball. technically they are by a distance way off the pace of any other team in that tournament. yes it is embarrassing to be shown up in front of Europe as a pack of donkeys chasing shadows.

this came up on the board before, whether it is better to qualify and be a laughing stock or not to qualify. remember some lads howling at the sacreligious idea that not qualifying might be better. what have ireland gained though by this. of course u can admire the fans for having a sing-song, but the team really had no business there on the pitch at this level. it is embarassing, and for every patronising twat who says, ah look, bless them and their plucky ballad-singing, there's another that will call it as primitive football by primitive people. the only possible positive is that it might lead to some change in direction in how we play. unlikely though, we're too stitched in to the fabric of English football to do things independently of them.