United Ireland

[Nally Stand]

I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

Has it ever occurred to you that when faced with a militant, Nordie Republican demanding to know why they are not all strongly in favour of a UI etc, your average Southerner cites "cost" as the reason, out of politeness and the desire to avoid a row?

So the majority of Southerners don't care about Irish Unity.

When is the penny going to drop that that is your  problem, not theirs?

"Cost" was used as an excuse before I even posted on the thread.

[Lar Naparka]

Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

I would agree that not many in the 26 appear to "care,"- if your use of the word means what I think it does. I hate generalising and I don't claim to speak on behalf of any one other than myself but it seems fair to say that the vast majority of the Republic's citizens would like very much to see positive, tangible results in the wake of the GFA.
They "cared" enough to support the referenda to removes Articles 2 & 3 from our constitution and to back the GFA by overwhelming majorities.  They "cared" enough to show their appreciation of what Ian Paisley had achieved by giving him a rousing welcomed when he visited the South. They also have left no one in any doubt that there is overwhelming support here for any move to breakdown sectarian barriers of all sorts between the communities in the North.
The efforts of Gerry Adams and his Sinn Fein colleagues were appreciated also and the same applies to all from every sector of Northern society who worked in the interests of peaceful cooperation and cross community bridge building.
I don't have any excuse to offer to any one about our refusal to take sides in the affairs of Northern Ireland during the Celtic Tiger years- or at any time since. I'd safely say very few here would do so either.
I think it is reasonable for our citizens to stand off and allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.
IMO, most people on the island would be in favour of some sort of a united Ireland even if it's not quite the United Ireland the RIRA and their fellow-travellers appear to want.

[Farrandeelin]

Question 16. Is "cost" just the standardised excuse for apathy towards Irish Unity, in the 26 counties? During the Celtic Septic Tiger years, I didn't hear much mass outpouring of support for Irish Unity south of the border. People just seemed to blissfully forget about the issue... the party was in full swing and everyone was too preoccupied living like kings. It just begs the question - if when times were good, many in the south didn't care about the north, and when times are bad, they say it's just too expensive to unite the nation,.... when will people care?

What if - the answer to that is never? Where does that leave 6 county republicans and nationalists? What would happen next?

Ive always cared.

Me too. Just because I don't go spouting things on a message forum doesn't mean I care about a United Ireland.

[stew]

A united Ireland is your only man. the brits need to feck away off forever.

[trueblue1234]

Some of you need to realise that people couldn't give a shit whether we live in a United Ireland or not. People are busy trying to keep a roof over their heads and trying to raise their children, a United Ireland would be well down the list of priorities or ideals, if it featured at all. It doesent make them any more or less of "an Irishman" either. A lot of people don't give a shit about politics.

That is my point. Not many seem to care in the 26 counties, stating that they are more worried about keeping a roof over their heads. What I want to know is what the excuse was for not caring when the celtic septic tiger was running rampant.

Why should they need an excuse?

I don't care for Bananas. Or Jazz. Or Motor Sport.

So if people in ROI are increasingly unconcerned about a United Ireland, so what?

Anyhow, whilst we can argue the toss over the importance of economics in determining peoples' views, I suspect that two another factors may be influencing opinions South of the border:
1. The population being a young one, memories of the Troubles are beginning to fade from their consciousness, never mind the Eater Rising, Black & Tans and the War of Independence etc;
2. Now that RC's/Nationalists in NI are seen to be getting a fair crack of the whip over Civil Rights and Jobs etc, the "need" for Southerners to care is that much less.

"So what?" It might be a case of "so what" for you. Does that mean it has to be for everyone? Yes, we all know you are a unionist, but surely that doesn't exclude you from accepting that for a place where so many fought and died for All Ireland Independence for centuries, and in a place where most remember such people as patriots, that the people of the 26 counties might still be vocally supportive of the idea of All-Ireland Independence/Unity rather than use dishonest excuses to disguise a complete apathy for it, because luckily their county is not one of the six most north easterly ones.

You go on as if the disinclination to bang a drum for a united Ireland is some sort of crime. Who, precisely, is trying to disguise their apathy? I think the widespread apathy is pretty well undisguised. I don't think either that there's any substance in the suggestion that the apathy disguises a widespread antipathy "down here" to the idea of a United Ireland.

I think the overwhelming attitude is that political unity would be a nice idea, but not worth another drop of Irish blood (or any other blood, either), as long as people are living in a free democratic society, particularly now that the political union that makes a real difference to peoples' lives is the European one of which we're all members.

I never once claimed it was a crime. I simply asked what the excuse was during the "good times" to disguise the apathy, since during the "bad times", money is being used as the excuse to disguise this apathy. I think the apathy is being disguised (just very very poorly). Most people from the 26 counties that I have ever talked about this with genuinely don't seem to give a feck about Irish Re-Unification, but most would nowadays use the old "what about the cost" rather than come clean and say they just don't give a flying fcuk.

And I simply answered that the apathy is not disguised at all, so your thesis doesn't stand up. Why do people need an "excuse"? That's where my "crime" reference (exaggerating for effect) comes from. The fact that you insist people need an excuse for their position implies that you think that position is reprehensible. It's not - it's just different to yours.

I believe it is. So the point stands. As has been shown on this board many times. IMO whenever someone from the south says they don't want a UI it's inevitably followed by a Economic reason as outlined by Nally earlier. Why not just say I'd rather there wasn't a United Ireland as things are fine for me the way they are.   

[pintsofguinness]

ah good, we haven't had a thread about this in about 2 weeks. 

[Olly]

I'm afraid of a United Ireland. We're a fightable race and would find a new common enemy.

It could be

1. Women
2. Gays
3. Animals

At least with the British it seems less haphazard.

[Myles Na G.]

'allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.'

I thought the whole justification for a UI was because our affairs are also your affairs i.e we're fellow countrymen / weemin. I thought we were family, now you're telling me you're just a polite neighbour? 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

'allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.'

I thought the whole justification for a UI was because our affairs are also your affairs i.e we're fellow countrymen / weemin. I thought we were family, now you're telling me you're just a polite neighbour? 

I think and I may be wrong, he means it more in the kinda way that people from South Australia and Victoria are fellow Australians but a South Australian wouldn't see it their business to interfere in the internal workings of Victoria (except when they argue about the water in the Murray River of course    ).

[Lar Naparka]

'allow the various factions in the 6 to learn how to peacefully co-exist before involving ourselves either overtly or covertly in your affairs.'

I thought the whole justification for a UI was because our affairs are also your affairs i.e we're fellow countrymen / weemin. I thought we were family, now you're telling me you're just a polite neighbour? 

So I am, Myles, so I am.
I propose staying that way until you and Nally and everyone else concerned stop squabbling and get down to serious negotiations to sort out your internal affairs first.
We care enough about you (the people of Northern Ireland) to stay out of the limelight until you can sort your collective asses from your collective elbows.
Then and only then will any sane person in the republic consider merger talks of any sort.
Remember we are not talking about a UI here and now. There is no marriage yet-we are still at the foreplay stage.

[Tonto]

A united Ireland is your only man. the brits need to feck away off forever.

The Brits need to feck off forever?  Would that involve some sort of ethnic cleansing of all the 'Brits' who live in Ireland and, more specifically, Northern Ireland?  Do you think I, a native Ulsterman/Irishman/'Brit', should 'feck away off forever'?

If so, I think the mask has slipped somewhat.

[Evil Genius]

Though to take you up on a couple of points. You seem to imply that I am either unaware of the "new dispensation" of the GFA, or that I am opposed to it. Both are incorrect. I am fully behind it. Does that mean that we should all not care about our views which were the very reason this dispensation came into being? No. To paraphrase you; personally I find it nauseating that murderous b a s t a r d s in Whitehall still occupy any part of Ireland, a country which those terrorists tried so hard to destroy, at such terrible cost to human life etc but I accept that this is the status quo. That doesn't mean that if one day, I decided to not care anymore, that I would make up excuses such as "ah what about the cost of re-unification". As it is though, I am unlikely to ever feel such a way.

That response ("murderous b a s t a r d s in Whitehall etc"), whether accurate or not, is surely also entirely misplaced, since the "problem" for Irish Republicans is not a few hundred Brits in Whitehall, or even a few thousand Brits in Army Uniform.
Rather it is one million Brits in Belfast, Ballymena, Ballinamallard etc .

In other words, if Irish Republicans are to achieve the UI which they desire, then their task is to persuade  those million British Irishmen of their (Republicans') case. To date they have failed miserably; in fact if anything, their preferred method (coercion) has only had the opposite effect.

On which point, I would advise you that virtually nothing you ever post on the topic of maintaining the six county state is ever likely to persuade Republicans of your case - quite the contrary, in fact.

Very likely.

But when you (no doubt sincerely) endorsed the GFA (above), it is clear that you simply do not understand the consequences of what it is you agreed to.

For under that settlement, Unionists do not need to persuade Republicans; in fact now that there is fairness and equality for everyone in NI, we do not need to do anything at all.

And besides all that, my whole entire point in all of this is that if certain people in the 26 counties don't care, that is their right (I never said otherwise) but to use the excuse of "cost" is simply dishonest. The only reason I asked what the "excuse" was during the "boom" years is to highlight that there was no excuse. People showed their apathy without excuses. Which is much more palatable.

Far be it for me to intevene in a "domestic", but whether Southerners are honest about their apathy towards a UI, or whether they try to excuse their apathy on spurious grounds ("cost"), should be irrelevant to you.

Rather, you might be advised to try something which might dispel their apathy. On which point, sending Gerry Adams south is hardly the most intelligent of strategies, seeing as how over the course of 30 years+, he failed utterly in overcoming the other, greater, problem for Irish Republicanism, Northern (Unionist) opposition. 

[Maguire01]

Sinn Fein unity referendum pledge in assembly manifesto

Sinn Fein is seeking a referendum on Irish unity in its assembly manifesto.

The party is also proposing a referendum on a new all-Ireland constitution, and wants people in Northern Ireland to be allowed to vote in Irish presidential elections.

It calls for tax-varying and borrowing powers to be transferred to Stormont, and cross-border tax harmonisation.

Martin McGuinness said "much has changed" in the four years following the restoration of devolution in 2007.

"The locally elected executive, assembly and all-Ireland bodies are working for the benefit of people across this island," he said.

Mr McGuinness added: "As a society we cannot allow those within and those outside the political process attempt to drag us back. They cannot and will not be allowed to succeed. Those days are gone and will not return.

"While we all retain our differences, we can all be proud of the role we have played in promoting the peace process, by stabilising these institutions and demonstrating the primacy of politics."

Pledges in the Sinn Fein manifesto include:

Increasing economic and fiscal powers away from London to Stormont;
Implementing the Review of Public Administration to deliver £400m in savings, including the reduction of councils from 26 to 11;
Blocking the introduction of separate household water charges;
Opposing any increases in student fees;
Introducing a phone mast levy to generate £160m over four years;
Delivering Bill of Rights;
Promoting the Irish language act, and implementing all-Ireland strategy to create new Gaeltacht areas, particularly in urban centres;
Bringing in all-Ireland public health system which provides free care at point of delivery;
Reinstating 50-50 Catholic/Protestant recruitment policy to the PSNI;
Establish all-Ireland job creation plan.

I can't see any logic in this move at this stage. It's clear it would be defeated, leaving it at least 7 years before another one could take place.

No doubt the Unioinists would kick up a stink, but they should actually welcome this with open arms. It would leave them very comfortable and could be very embarassing for SF.

[Ulick]

Sinn Fein unity referendum pledge in assembly manifesto

Sinn Fein is seeking a referendum on Irish unity in its assembly manifesto.

The party is also proposing a referendum on a new all-Ireland constitution, and wants people in Northern Ireland to be allowed to vote in Irish presidential elections.

It calls for tax-varying and borrowing powers to be transferred to Stormont, and cross-border tax harmonisation.

Martin McGuinness said "much has changed" in the four years following the restoration of devolution in 2007.

"The locally elected executive, assembly and all-Ireland bodies are working for the benefit of people across this island," he said.

Mr McGuinness added: "As a society we cannot allow those within and those outside the political process attempt to drag us back. They cannot and will not be allowed to succeed. Those days are gone and will not return.

"While we all retain our differences, we can all be proud of the role we have played in promoting the peace process, by stabilising these institutions and demonstrating the primacy of politics."

Pledges in the Sinn Fein manifesto include:

Increasing economic and fiscal powers away from London to Stormont;
Implementing the Review of Public Administration to deliver £400m in savings, including the reduction of councils from 26 to 11;
Blocking the introduction of separate household water charges;
Opposing any increases in student fees;
Introducing a phone mast levy to generate £160m over four years;
Delivering Bill of Rights;
Promoting the Irish language act, and implementing all-Ireland strategy to create new Gaeltacht areas, particularly in urban centres;
Bringing in all-Ireland public health system which provides free care at point of delivery;
Reinstating 50-50 Catholic/Protestant recruitment policy to the PSNI;
Establish all-Ireland job creation plan.

I can't see any logic in this move at this stage. It's clear it would be defeated, leaving it at least 7 years before another one could take place.

No doubt the Unioinists would kick up a stink, but they should actually welcome this with open arms. It would leave them very comfortable and could be very embarassing for SF.

Puts it on the agenda and stimulates debate. People can't be expected to vote in a referendum until they know what the various options will entail. Mainstream Parties have so far gotten away from outlining their ideas for the future in regards to the shape of the country after reunification. If a referendum is called they'll be able to long-finger no more. Unionists for their part will also have to come up with some sensible counter-arguments rather than dismissing the notion with the usual patronizing bull.

[Maguire01]

I'd imagine Unionists would have a handy enough time, just pointing to the mess the south is in. I don't think they'll need a massive list of counter-arguments.

But seriously, if a referendum was held in the next Assembly term, what way would you expect the figures to be? I'd be surprised if they topped 40%.
And if they were worse than that, it would take some monumental series of events to generate any appetite for a repeat within 10-15 years.