Ulster Championship 2020

[Itchy]

You're right Dread.
Also if a D3 or 4 team make a Provincial Final they avoid Tier 2.
If it was in this year Cavan and Tipp would have avoided it.

So does that mean that both A and B championships could have different numbers participating annually  depending on who reached their provincial finals?

So, youd normally have 16 in A... but say Antrim, Leitrim, Waterford and Wicklow reach their provincial finals, that means the race for Sam would have 20 teams (16 plus those 4), and B championship just 12 (16 less those 4)?

It does seem there are some ways to avoid the B champ (if you are in Div3/4) but I dont see it displacing any teams that are in the A champ. All a bit daft really.

[Dreadnought]

You're right Dread.
Also if a D3 or 4 team make a Provincial Final they avoid Tier 2.
If it was in this year Cavan and Tipp would have avoided it.

So does that mean that both A and B championships could have different numbers participating annually  depending on who reached their provincial finals?

So, youd normally have 16 in A... but say Antrim, Leitrim, Waterford and Wicklow reach their provincial finals, that means the race for Sam would have 20 teams (16 plus those 4), and B championship just 12 (16 less those 4)?

I believe so. I think the reasoning is that they really don't expect any Div 3 or 4 teams (or recently relegated Div 2 teams) to reach their finals that often. And generally they'd be right, but this year has skewed with Cavan and Tipp reaching their final. If I read that right, then it's 18 teams in A, and 14 in B. Not a huge issue, but that will likely be the exception. Most years you'll probably have 16 and 16. And this is a 3 year trial by the way, could be gone by 2024

[Angelo]

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

I'm not the one completely missing the point, it's you is missing the point. If we apply your logic, you could trace most scores back to a refereeing mistake, if you look at the Cavan penalty you could probably argue a free that Down should have been awarded in the minute or two before it and argue that if that free had been awarded the goal wouldn't have been scored.

The bottom line is, the point that you keep missing is, that the award of the free is not the reason Down scored that goal, no team should be able to run the ball from their 45 yard line without having a glove laid on them and score a goal. That goal was not the referee's fault. If you want to attribute every minor error the ref makes to a score you could be there all day.

The difference between that mistake and the Reilly one is absolute night and day.

Ok, answer me this simply. Would that goal have been scored in that way, if Cavan got the sideline ball, and Down did not get the 45?

Quite possibly if that's the way Cavan were set up in the first half.

It was the wrong decision but it was not the reason for the goal. Allowing a team to run the ball from their own half without getting a glove on them is not the referee's fault.

[Rossfan]

If the 2 Tiers were used this year (and no Covid!!)
Tailteann Cup would contain
Fermanagh Antrim Derry
London Leitrim Sligo
Waterford Limerick
Wexford Wicklow Carlow Offaly Longford Louth.

Qualifiers
Roscommon
Tyrone Monaghan Armagh Down
Kerry Clare
Kildare Laois Westmeath.
Bennycake's dream of Tyrone v Kerry in a preliminary might have come true 😄

[Dreadnought]

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

I'm not the one completely missing the point, it's you is missing the point. If we apply your logic, you could trace most scores back to a refereeing mistake, if you look at the Cavan penalty you could probably argue a free that Down should have been awarded in the minute or two before it and argue that if that free had been awarded the goal wouldn't have been scored.

The bottom line is, the point that you keep missing is, that the award of the free is not the reason Down scored that goal, no team should be able to run the ball from their 45 yard line without having a glove laid on them and score a goal. That goal was not the referee's fault. If you want to attribute every minor error the ref makes to a score you could be there all day.

The difference between that mistake and the Reilly one is absolute night and day.

Ok, answer me this simply. Would that goal have been scored in that way, if Cavan got the sideline ball, and Down did not get the 45?

Quite possibly if that's the way Cavan were set up in the first half.

It was the wrong decision but it was not the reason for the goal. Allowing a team to run the ball from their own half without getting a glove on them is not the referee's fault.

So you think the exact same goal, with the exact same move would happen, even if Cavan got the ball. Please stop man  you're embarrassing yourself

They may well have scored a goal that half, but not that one, as both teams would have set up for the sideline ball differently, and Down would not have had the ball to attack a stretched Cavan defence. That is my point, just ridiculous you think they could have scored that goal if the decision went the other way.

[BennyCake]

You're right Dread.
Also if a D3 or 4 team make a Provincial Final they avoid Tier 2.
If it was in this year Cavan and Tipp would have avoided it.

So does that mean that both A and B championships could have different numbers participating annually  depending on who reached their provincial finals?

So, youd normally have 16 in A... but say Antrim, Leitrim, Waterford and Wicklow reach their provincial finals, that means the race for Sam would have 20 teams (16 plus those 4), and B championship just 12 (16 less those 4)?

I believe so. I think the reasoning is that they really don't expect any Div 3 or 4 teams (or recently relegated Div 2 teams) to reach their finals that often. And generally they'd be right, but this year has skewed with Cavan and Tipp reaching their final. If I read that right, then it's 18 teams in A, and 14 in B. Not a huge issue, but that will likely be the exception. Most years you'll probably have 16 and 16. And this is a 3 year trial by the way, could be gone by 2024

So, more teams in A, means one or more preliminary rounds, meaning squeezing in an extra week. If those Super 8 bollix is still happening, they are fired off in quick succession, so there's not much room for manoeuvre.

It's all a load of bollix really.

[BennyCake]

If the 2 Tiers were used this year (and no Covid!!)
Tailteann Cup would contain
Fermanagh Antrim Derry
London Leitrim Sligo
Waterford Limerick
Wexford Wicklow Carlow Offaly Longford Louth.

Qualifiers
Roscommon
Tyrone Monaghan Armagh Down
Kerry Clare
Kildare Laois Westmeath.
Bennycake's dream of Tyrone v Kerry in a preliminary might have come true 😄

That's not my dream (by the way, I'm not from Tyrone, as you stated a day or two ago!).

My idea is an open draw, meaning it's possible we could get big teams drawn together, like Dublin v Kerry in the first round. Look at what we got this year, Donegal v Tyrone, Kerry v Cork. Two exciting games. Two big guns gone early, no second chances.

And you have to say, the championship has been all the better for do or die clashes like those this year.

[Rossfan]

The mini winter Championship is pure shite.
Ros aren't in it any more.
Anyway the Qualifiers are "do or die" too.
P S sorry for the Tyrone insult 

[Milltown Row2]

It shouldn't be difficult to sort out a second tier championship.

Based on leagues Div 3/4 are in the B championship and Div 1/2 in Sam Maguire

Winners of the league move up and Winners of the second tier championship move up, two teams.

That means two teams drop out of the Sam Maguire, If the winners of the league and second tier championship are the same team then next in the league goes up.

Relegation playoff to decide who drops down based on league positions, so in the unlikely event that a team being relegated from Div 2 wins Sam Maguire then they stay up and its the next in the lowest position goes down..

Almost everything should be based on league standings. Getting to the final of your province should not be a means to keep you up

[Dreadnought]

It shouldn't be difficult to sort out a second tier championship.

Based on leagues Div 3/4 are in the B championship and Div 1/2 in Sam Maguire

Winners of the league move up and Winners of the second tier championship move up, two teams.

That means two teams drop out of the Sam Maguire, If the winners of the league and second tier championship are the same team then next in the league goes up.

Relegation playoff to decide who drops down based on league positions, so in the unlikely event that a team being relegated from Div 2 wins Sam Maguire then they stay up and its the next in the lowest position goes down..

Almost everything should be based on league standings. Getting to the final of your province should not be a means to keep you up

With respect, that last bit is rubbish. I still don't know why they are using the league mainly as the gauge here for championship. Should use championship for championship. That you say reaching a provincial final shouldn't matter vs league is nonsense. Any team that does well in championship should be rewarded more than only on a league in winter/spring. Imagine getting to a provincial final and they say nah, B championship for you due to your league placing 3 months ago...

[Milltown Row2]

It shouldn't be difficult to sort out a second tier championship.

Based on leagues Div 3/4 are in the B championship and Div 1/2 in Sam Maguire

Winners of the league move up and Winners of the second tier championship move up, two teams.

That means two teams drop out of the Sam Maguire, If the winners of the league and second tier championship are the same team then next in the league goes up.

Relegation playoff to decide who drops down based on league positions, so in the unlikely event that a team being relegated from Div 2 wins Sam Maguire then they stay up and its the next in the lowest position goes down..

Almost everything should be based on league standings. Getting to the final of your province should not be a means to keep you up

With respect, that last bit is rubbish. I still don't know why they are using the league mainly as the gauge here for championship. Should use championship for championship. That you say reaching a provincial final shouldn't matter vs league is nonsense. Any team that does well in championship should be rewarded more than only on a league in winter/spring. Imagine getting to a provincial final and they say nah, B championship for you due to your league placing 3 months ago...

Munster championship and Waterford get to a final as Cork and Kerry meet in the first round.. Waterford should be in the Sam Maguire even though they are Div 4?

[Angelo]

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

I'm not the one completely missing the point, it's you is missing the point. If we apply your logic, you could trace most scores back to a refereeing mistake, if you look at the Cavan penalty you could probably argue a free that Down should have been awarded in the minute or two before it and argue that if that free had been awarded the goal wouldn't have been scored.

The bottom line is, the point that you keep missing is, that the award of the free is not the reason Down scored that goal, no team should be able to run the ball from their 45 yard line without having a glove laid on them and score a goal. That goal was not the referee's fault. If you want to attribute every minor error the ref makes to a score you could be there all day.

The difference between that mistake and the Reilly one is absolute night and day.

Ok, answer me this simply. Would that goal have been scored in that way, if Cavan got the sideline ball, and Down did not get the 45?

Quite possibly if that's the way Cavan were set up in the first half.

It was the wrong decision but it was not the reason for the goal. Allowing a team to run the ball from their own half without getting a glove on them is not the referee's fault.

So you think the exact same goal, with the exact same move would happen, even if Cavan got the ball. Please stop man  you're embarrassing yourself

They may well have scored a goal that half, but not that one, as both teams would have set up for the sideline ball differently, and Down would not have had the ball to attack a stretched Cavan defence. That is my point, just ridiculous you think they could have scored that goal if the decision went the other way.

It's very possible Down would have scored a similar goal yes. Down ran the ball from their 45 yard line without a Cavan player laying a glove on them.

You are fairly reaching to be putting the blame at the referee in that situation.

[Dreadnought]

It shouldn't be difficult to sort out a second tier championship.

Based on leagues Div 3/4 are in the B championship and Div 1/2 in Sam Maguire

Winners of the league move up and Winners of the second tier championship move up, two teams.

That means two teams drop out of the Sam Maguire, If the winners of the league and second tier championship are the same team then next in the league goes up.

Relegation playoff to decide who drops down based on league positions, so in the unlikely event that a team being relegated from Div 2 wins Sam Maguire then they stay up and its the next in the lowest position goes down..

Almost everything should be based on league standings. Getting to the final of your province should not be a means to keep you up

With respect, that last bit is rubbish. I still don't know why they are using the league mainly as the gauge here for championship. Should use championship for championship. That you say reaching a provincial final shouldn't matter vs league is nonsense. Any team that does well in championship should be rewarded more than only on a league in winter/spring. Imagine getting to a provincial final and they say nah, B championship for you due to your league placing 3 months ago...

Munster championship and Waterford get to a final as Cork and Kerry meet in the first round.. Waterford should be in the Sam Maguire even though they are Div 4?

They will likely still have to get past past Clare and Tipperary so yes. But that example is a long shot, when was the last time Waterford to to the MSFC final? But saying that, if they go on a run and get to the final, they absolutely deserve their chance

[Dreadnought]

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

I'm not the one completely missing the point, it's you is missing the point. If we apply your logic, you could trace most scores back to a refereeing mistake, if you look at the Cavan penalty you could probably argue a free that Down should have been awarded in the minute or two before it and argue that if that free had been awarded the goal wouldn't have been scored.

The bottom line is, the point that you keep missing is, that the award of the free is not the reason Down scored that goal, no team should be able to run the ball from their 45 yard line without having a glove laid on them and score a goal. That goal was not the referee's fault. If you want to attribute every minor error the ref makes to a score you could be there all day.

The difference between that mistake and the Reilly one is absolute night and day.

Ok, answer me this simply. Would that goal have been scored in that way, if Cavan got the sideline ball, and Down did not get the 45?

Quite possibly if that's the way Cavan were set up in the first half.

It was the wrong decision but it was not the reason for the goal. Allowing a team to run the ball from their own half without getting a glove on them is not the referee's fault.

So you think the exact same goal, with the exact same move would happen, even if Cavan got the ball. Please stop man  you're embarrassing yourself

They may well have scored a goal that half, but not that one, as both teams would have set up for the sideline ball differently, and Down would not have had the ball to attack a stretched Cavan defence. That is my point, just ridiculous you think they could have scored that goal if the decision went the other way.

It's very possible Down would have scored a similar goal yes. Down ran the ball from their 45 yard line without a Cavan player laying a glove on them.

You are fairly reaching to be putting the blame at the referee in that situation.

So you're finally admitting that Down would not have scored that goal if the ball went to Cavan? Glad you've seen the light. Finally. And if they could have scored similar goals, why didn't they? Fact is they benefitted from a bad referring decision. Luckily Cavan won, so it didn't matter so much in the grand scheme

[Milltown Row2]

It shouldn't be difficult to sort out a second tier championship.

Based on leagues Div 3/4 are in the B championship and Div 1/2 in Sam Maguire

Winners of the league move up and Winners of the second tier championship move up, two teams.

That means two teams drop out of the Sam Maguire, If the winners of the league and second tier championship are the same team then next in the league goes up.

Relegation playoff to decide who drops down based on league positions, so in the unlikely event that a team being relegated from Div 2 wins Sam Maguire then they stay up and its the next in the lowest position goes down..

Almost everything should be based on league standings. Getting to the final of your province should not be a means to keep you up

With respect, that last bit is rubbish. I still don't know why they are using the league mainly as the gauge here for championship. Should use championship for championship. That you say reaching a provincial final shouldn't matter vs league is nonsense. Any team that does well in championship should be rewarded more than only on a league in winter/spring. Imagine getting to a provincial final and they say nah, B championship for you due to your league placing 3 months ago...

Munster championship and Waterford get to a final as Cork and Kerry meet in the first round.. Waterford should be in the Sam Maguire even though they are Div 4?

They will likely still have to get past past Clare and Tipperary so yes. But that example is a long shot, when was the last time Waterford to to the MSFC final? But saying that, if they go on a run and get to the final, they absolutely deserve their chance

No they don't deserve it, they are Div 4 and that's that. When Kerry and Cork play on same side of draw it serves up a mismatch final usually. Clare were div4 two years ago. Tipp only recently making an impact but that'll fade.

Base it on the leagues, works well for the hurling and promotion produces teams that can compete and improve, Laois a great example as is Dublin, not that far back I remember Antrim always giving Dublin their fill of it, now they have stormed ahead and have managed to stay ...

If teams know their progression into Sam Maguire is based on league performance then they'll be putting big effort into their training and conditioning.

Again we'll all hold personal views on this based on where you actually see your own county.