Ulster Championship 2020

Started by J70, October 26, 2020, 03:19:04 PM

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Angelo

Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 16, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Getting good mileage out of this one lads  ;D

If Madden did wrong it went a bit of way to even out previous mistakes by the referee as there was a 5 point swing in the Down goal that shouldn't have been and giving Martin Reilly a free with the goal at his mercy.

What was wrong the Down goal?

Thought the referee played advantage rightly there. He definitely should have given Reilly the advantage at the other end though.

He gave a mark for a catch just inside the 45. Should not have been a mark, should have been a line ball to Cavan as he went over the sideline. Down scored the goal directly off this decision.

Fair enough but you're talking about a dead ball in Down's own half. You shouldn't be conceding goals in those situations so you can hardly lay the blame for the goal there.

But Down quite literally scored the goal from that possession. Sure, Cavan should have stopped them getting in, but if you look at it simply, it should have been a Cavan lineball inside Downs 45. Down aren't scoring that goal as it was if possession was with Cavan. It's not that hard to see that.

Goals could be scored from a wrongly awarded kickout in similar circumstances. You could analyse every minor decision like that. Cavan should not have been allowing a goal chance to develop so easily from a situation like that.

There's no doubt it was a wrong decision but you can't lay the blame of a goal at the referee in that situation. It's not like a dodgy penalty or a clear foul being committed that caused the goal. It was lax defending from Cavan. Down pretty much worked their ball from their own half without a challenge.

Angelo, can you define then how long before a score a referring mistake should be analysed as to whether it lead to a goal. Is it 1 second, 10 seconds, 20 seconds. Or is it by distance from the goals or what is it. Should we just refer all calls to you on the board here so you can adjudicate? What is the process.

The goal stood and in my opinion it was the right decision and even though the ref got two big calls wrong against us and he was from Monaghan I still think he had a damn good game.

You can't.

I'm only making the point that the wrong award for a free to the opponents in their own 45 yard line is not the cause of the goal. It is admittedly a fairly idiotic decision from the referee but he's not the reason Down scored that goal. It was the combination of a really slick Down move and some shambolic defending from Cavan.

I thought the referee was fairly terrible throughout the game. You could argue that wrong decisions in the first half went Down's way, the first was just brainless refereeing but it wasn't the reason for the Down goal. The second was a crazy decision that denied Reilly a great goal chance.

I think Cavan got the benefit of loads of iffy calls in that second half, to me Down seemed to have work so much harder to get a free. GAA referees can seem to be very reactive to changes in games and tend to award the frees to the team with all the momentum.
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Dreadnought

Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 16, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Getting good mileage out of this one lads  ;D

If Madden did wrong it went a bit of way to even out previous mistakes by the referee as there was a 5 point swing in the Down goal that shouldn't have been and giving Martin Reilly a free with the goal at his mercy.

What was wrong the Down goal?

Thought the referee played advantage rightly there. He definitely should have given Reilly the advantage at the other end though.

He gave a mark for a catch just inside the 45. Should not have been a mark, should have been a line ball to Cavan as he went over the sideline. Down scored the goal directly off this decision.

Fair enough but you're talking about a dead ball in Down's own half. You shouldn't be conceding goals in those situations so you can hardly lay the blame for the goal there.

But Down quite literally scored the goal from that possession. Sure, Cavan should have stopped them getting in, but if you look at it simply, it should have been a Cavan lineball inside Downs 45. Down aren't scoring that goal as it was if possession was with Cavan. It's not that hard to see that.

Goals could be scored from a wrongly awarded kickout in similar circumstances. You could analyse every minor decision like that. Cavan should not have been allowing a goal chance to develop so easily from a situation like that.

There's no doubt it was a wrong decision but you can't lay the blame of a goal at the referee in that situation. It's not like a dodgy penalty or a clear foul being committed that caused the goal. It was lax defending from Cavan. Down pretty much worked their ball from their own half without a challenge.

Angelo, can you define then how long before a score a referring mistake should be analysed as to whether it lead to a goal. Is it 1 second, 10 seconds, 20 seconds. Or is it by distance from the goals or what is it. Should we just refer all calls to you on the board here so you can adjudicate? What is the process.

The goal stood and in my opinion it was the right decision and even though the ref got two big calls wrong against us and he was from Monaghan I still think he had a damn good game.

You can't.

I'm only making the point that the wrong award for a free to the opponents in their own 45 yard line is not the cause of the goal. It is admittedly a fairly idiotic decision from the referee but he's not the reason Down scored that goal. It was the combination of a really slick Down move and some shambolic defending from Cavan.

I thought the referee was fairly terrible throughout the game. You could argue that wrong decisions in the first half went Down's way, the first was just brainless refereeing but it wasn't the reason for the Down goal. The second was a crazy decision that denied Reilly a great goal chance.

I think Cavan got the benefit of loads of iffy calls in that second half, to me Down seemed to have work so much harder to get a free. GAA referees can seem to be very reactive to changes in games and tend to award the frees to the team with all the momentum.

But the goal came direct from the wrong decision. A Cavan man did not touch the ball in that time, it was the same possession. Absolutely the defending should have been better, but if the ref gives the right decision, then that goal in that form is not being scored, in fact Cavan are attacking and that's a huge swing. Are you being deliberately obtuse on this? It's really not that hard to see. Anything that happened in that possession would not have happened with the decision going the other way...

Angelo

Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 04:19:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 16, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Getting good mileage out of this one lads  ;D

If Madden did wrong it went a bit of way to even out previous mistakes by the referee as there was a 5 point swing in the Down goal that shouldn't have been and giving Martin Reilly a free with the goal at his mercy.

What was wrong the Down goal?

Thought the referee played advantage rightly there. He definitely should have given Reilly the advantage at the other end though.

He gave a mark for a catch just inside the 45. Should not have been a mark, should have been a line ball to Cavan as he went over the sideline. Down scored the goal directly off this decision.

Fair enough but you're talking about a dead ball in Down's own half. You shouldn't be conceding goals in those situations so you can hardly lay the blame for the goal there.

But Down quite literally scored the goal from that possession. Sure, Cavan should have stopped them getting in, but if you look at it simply, it should have been a Cavan lineball inside Downs 45. Down aren't scoring that goal as it was if possession was with Cavan. It's not that hard to see that.

Goals could be scored from a wrongly awarded kickout in similar circumstances. You could analyse every minor decision like that. Cavan should not have been allowing a goal chance to develop so easily from a situation like that.

There's no doubt it was a wrong decision but you can't lay the blame of a goal at the referee in that situation. It's not like a dodgy penalty or a clear foul being committed that caused the goal. It was lax defending from Cavan. Down pretty much worked their ball from their own half without a challenge.

Angelo, can you define then how long before a score a referring mistake should be analysed as to whether it lead to a goal. Is it 1 second, 10 seconds, 20 seconds. Or is it by distance from the goals or what is it. Should we just refer all calls to you on the board here so you can adjudicate? What is the process.

The goal stood and in my opinion it was the right decision and even though the ref got two big calls wrong against us and he was from Monaghan I still think he had a damn good game.

You can't.

I'm only making the point that the wrong award for a free to the opponents in their own 45 yard line is not the cause of the goal. It is admittedly a fairly idiotic decision from the referee but he's not the reason Down scored that goal. It was the combination of a really slick Down move and some shambolic defending from Cavan.

I thought the referee was fairly terrible throughout the game. You could argue that wrong decisions in the first half went Down's way, the first was just brainless refereeing but it wasn't the reason for the Down goal. The second was a crazy decision that denied Reilly a great goal chance.

I think Cavan got the benefit of loads of iffy calls in that second half, to me Down seemed to have work so much harder to get a free. GAA referees can seem to be very reactive to changes in games and tend to award the frees to the team with all the momentum.

But the goal came direct from the wrong decision. A Cavan man did not touch the ball in that time, it was the same possession. Absolutely the defending should have been better, but if the ref gives the right decision, then that goal in that form is not being scored, in fact Cavan are attacking and that's a huge swing. Are you being deliberately obtuse on this? It's really not that hard to see. Anything that happened in that possession would not have happened with the decision going the other way...

Teams can score a goal in 10 seconds from a kickout, it shouldn't happen though so you can't lay the blame at the referee in those instances. They are going to make mistakes, that was a minor mistake in reality but Cavan were just very badly set up and paid the price for it.

Red cards and penalties, scorable frees and and punishing consistent/cynical fouling appropriately are the big decisions in games.
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mrdeeds

The line ball wasn't a big decision but it was an obvious one. Reminds me when Beggan punched ball wide in first game and a kick out given. If officials can't get easy decisions right then how can you trust them.

Main Street

Cavan people have long memories for grievances.

Itchy

Does anyone know to Cavan now avoid the B Championship next yr as a result of making this final? I read somewhere that was the case.

delgany

Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 10:40:29 PM
Does anyone know to Cavan now avoid the B Championship next yr as a result of making this final? I read somewhere that was the case.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/1019/1084423-two-tier-senior-football-championship-to-begin-in-2020/

It may be subject to change due to Covid - who knows

restorepride

Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 04:19:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 16, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Getting good mileage out of this one lads  ;D

If Madden did wrong it went a bit of way to even out previous mistakes by the referee as there was a 5 point swing in the Down goal that shouldn't have been and giving Martin Reilly a free with the goal at his mercy.

What was wrong the Down goal?

Thought the referee played advantage rightly there. He definitely should have given Reilly the advantage at the other end though.

He gave a mark for a catch just inside the 45. Should not have been a mark, should have been a line ball to Cavan as he went over the sideline. Down scored the goal directly off this decision.

Fair enough but you're talking about a dead ball in Down's own half. You shouldn't be conceding goals in those situations so you can hardly lay the blame for the goal there.

But Down quite literally scored the goal from that possession. Sure, Cavan should have stopped them getting in, but if you look at it simply, it should have been a Cavan lineball inside Downs 45. Down aren't scoring that goal as it was if possession was with Cavan. It's not that hard to see that.

Goals could be scored from a wrongly awarded kickout in similar circumstances. You could analyse every minor decision like that. Cavan should not have been allowing a goal chance to develop so easily from a situation like that.

There's no doubt it was a wrong decision but you can't lay the blame of a goal at the referee in that situation. It's not like a dodgy penalty or a clear foul being committed that caused the goal. It was lax defending from Cavan. Down pretty much worked their ball from their own half without a challenge.

Angelo, can you define then how long before a score a referring mistake should be analysed as to whether it lead to a goal. Is it 1 second, 10 seconds, 20 seconds. Or is it by distance from the goals or what is it. Should we just refer all calls to you on the board here so you can adjudicate? What is the process.

The goal stood and in my opinion it was the right decision and even though the ref got two big calls wrong against us and he was from Monaghan I still think he had a damn good game.

You can't.

I'm only making the point that the wrong award for a free to the opponents in their own 45 yard line is not the cause of the goal. It is admittedly a fairly idiotic decision from the referee but he's not the reason Down scored that goal. It was the combination of a really slick Down move and some shambolic defending from Cavan.

I thought the referee was fairly terrible throughout the game. You could argue that wrong decisions in the first half went Down's way, the first was just brainless refereeing but it wasn't the reason for the Down goal. The second was a crazy decision that denied Reilly a great goal chance.

I think Cavan got the benefit of loads of iffy calls in that second half, to me Down seemed to have work so much harder to get a free. GAA referees can seem to be very reactive to changes in games and tend to award the frees to the team with all the momentum.

But the goal came direct from the wrong decision. A Cavan man did not touch the ball in that time, it was the same possession. Absolutely the defending should have been better, but if the ref gives the right decision, then that goal in that form is not being scored, in fact Cavan are attacking and that's a huge swing. Are you being deliberately obtuse on this? It's really not that hard to see. Anything that happened in that possession would not have happened with the decision going the other way...
Yes - that is his style.  Attention seeking.  Probably a poor referee in a former life! 

Dreadnought

Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 10:40:29 PM
Does anyone know to Cavan now avoid the B Championship next yr as a result of making this final? I read somewhere that was the case.

I think that would usually be the case, but it didn't start in 2020 due to Covid. Although looks like a motion at the time of voting for the B Championship also went in place to take the placings from the end of the league that season. So if Cavan get promoted from Division 3 early 2021, they're then technically in Division 2 and would be in the main championship. That's my reading of it anyway, could be wrong...

Angelo

Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 04:19:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 16, 2020, 03:28:26 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 03:13:37 PM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 16, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 16, 2020, 09:52:15 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 16, 2020, 09:43:00 AM
Getting good mileage out of this one lads  ;D

If Madden did wrong it went a bit of way to even out previous mistakes by the referee as there was a 5 point swing in the Down goal that shouldn't have been and giving Martin Reilly a free with the goal at his mercy.

What was wrong the Down goal?

Thought the referee played advantage rightly there. He definitely should have given Reilly the advantage at the other end though.

He gave a mark for a catch just inside the 45. Should not have been a mark, should have been a line ball to Cavan as he went over the sideline. Down scored the goal directly off this decision.

Fair enough but you're talking about a dead ball in Down's own half. You shouldn't be conceding goals in those situations so you can hardly lay the blame for the goal there.

But Down quite literally scored the goal from that possession. Sure, Cavan should have stopped them getting in, but if you look at it simply, it should have been a Cavan lineball inside Downs 45. Down aren't scoring that goal as it was if possession was with Cavan. It's not that hard to see that.

Goals could be scored from a wrongly awarded kickout in similar circumstances. You could analyse every minor decision like that. Cavan should not have been allowing a goal chance to develop so easily from a situation like that.

There's no doubt it was a wrong decision but you can't lay the blame of a goal at the referee in that situation. It's not like a dodgy penalty or a clear foul being committed that caused the goal. It was lax defending from Cavan. Down pretty much worked their ball from their own half without a challenge.

Angelo, can you define then how long before a score a referring mistake should be analysed as to whether it lead to a goal. Is it 1 second, 10 seconds, 20 seconds. Or is it by distance from the goals or what is it. Should we just refer all calls to you on the board here so you can adjudicate? What is the process.

The goal stood and in my opinion it was the right decision and even though the ref got two big calls wrong against us and he was from Monaghan I still think he had a damn good game.

You can't.

I'm only making the point that the wrong award for a free to the opponents in their own 45 yard line is not the cause of the goal. It is admittedly a fairly idiotic decision from the referee but he's not the reason Down scored that goal. It was the combination of a really slick Down move and some shambolic defending from Cavan.

I thought the referee was fairly terrible throughout the game. You could argue that wrong decisions in the first half went Down's way, the first was just brainless refereeing but it wasn't the reason for the Down goal. The second was a crazy decision that denied Reilly a great goal chance.

I think Cavan got the benefit of loads of iffy calls in that second half, to me Down seemed to have work so much harder to get a free. GAA referees can seem to be very reactive to changes in games and tend to award the frees to the team with all the momentum.

But the goal came direct from the wrong decision. A Cavan man did not touch the ball in that time, it was the same possession. Absolutely the defending should have been better, but if the ref gives the right decision, then that goal in that form is not being scored, in fact Cavan are attacking and that's a huge swing. Are you being deliberately obtuse on this? It's really not that hard to see. Anything that happened in that possession would not have happened with the decision going the other way...

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?
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Rossfan

You're right Dread.
Also if a D3 or 4 team make a Provincial Final they avoid Tier 2.
If it was in this year Cavan and Tipp would have avoided it.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Dreadnought

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 09:43:46 AM

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

Angelo

Quote from: Dreadnought on November 17, 2020, 09:57:54 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 09:43:46 AM

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

I'm not the one completely missing the point, it's you is missing the point. If we apply your logic, you could trace most scores back to a refereeing mistake, if you look at the Cavan penalty you could probably argue a free that Down should have been awarded in the minute or two before it and argue that if that free had been awarded the goal wouldn't have been scored.

The bottom line is, the point that you keep missing is, that the award of the free is not the reason Down scored that goal, no team should be able to run the ball from their 45 yard line without having a glove laid on them and score a goal. That goal was not the referee's fault. If you want to attribute every minor error the ref makes to a score you could be there all day.

The difference between that mistake and the Reilly one is absolute night and day.
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Dreadnought

Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 17, 2020, 09:57:54 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2020, 09:43:46 AM

The goal came from sloppy defending. You could trace most scores back to a point where a referee makes a mistake. There is no way Down should be able to work a score from that situation so easily so to blame the referee for that one is absolutely laughable.

What if a Down player kicked it straight to a Cavan player from the move and Cavan went and scored a goal? Would you have blamed the ref for that?

I know it came from sloppy defending, but you repeatedly miss the point, that sloppy defending wouldn't have happened like that if Cavan rightly got the ball. That goal came from the same possession within 10 seconds of that mark being kicked. A mark within the 45, which is obviously wrong. All I'm saying, is that if that was not a mark, but a sideline to Cavan, then that exact move would not have happened, and we can't say that goal would have happened. That's a big swing. You're over complicating the whole situation. The fact is that goal would not have happened if Cavan got the sideline ball. Jeez man...

I'm not the one completely missing the point, it's you is missing the point. If we apply your logic, you could trace most scores back to a refereeing mistake, if you look at the Cavan penalty you could probably argue a free that Down should have been awarded in the minute or two before it and argue that if that free had been awarded the goal wouldn't have been scored.

The bottom line is, the point that you keep missing is, that the award of the free is not the reason Down scored that goal, no team should be able to run the ball from their 45 yard line without having a glove laid on them and score a goal. That goal was not the referee's fault. If you want to attribute every minor error the ref makes to a score you could be there all day.

The difference between that mistake and the Reilly one is absolute night and day.

Ok, answer me this simply. Would that goal have been scored in that way, if Cavan got the sideline ball, and Down did not get the 45?

BennyCake

Quote from: Rossfan on November 17, 2020, 09:44:22 AM
You're right Dread.
Also if a D3 or 4 team make a Provincial Final they avoid Tier 2.
If it was in this year Cavan and Tipp would have avoided it.

So does that mean that both A and B championships could have different numbers participating annually  depending on who reached their provincial finals?

So, youd normally have 16 in A... but say Antrim, Leitrim, Waterford and Wicklow reach their provincial finals, that means the race for Sam would have 20 teams (16 plus those 4), and B championship just 12 (16 less those 4)?