Down Club Hurling & Football

[BarryBreensBandage]

Very good points by PaulD, especially on attack and on passing and movement.
So what now folks - what is the answer? A clear-out of players, manager and county board staff?

Which a) is not going to happen and b) would cause another few years of hurt and no direction.

What pains me is that you are not seen to be a competent manager unless you ape the tactics of Jimmy McGuinness, and before him, Harte and McKernan. These managers, along with Fitzmaurice and Gavin have looked at the players available to them (including older players who couldn't commit) and came up with a system that worked for that team. You cannot compare the Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal teams of the last fifteen years. They were all different yet their style of play was thrown under the blanket defence tag. Forwards defending and vice versa has always been around - who remembers Ross Carr catching balls in his own penalty era, or Paul Higgins/DJ Kane scoring points?

How do we compete with these teams? I am waiting for a team to come up with a different style of play to beat the current defensive systems that all managers are judged by, and change Gaelic Football.

Down did it in the sixties and nineties, Clare did it a couple of years ago in the hurling and (although some don't like the comparison with other sports) Barcelona changed soccer and the way it is played.

I suppose I think that is why we are always left wringing our hands at poor Down performances. Alright we have to wait for our glory, but when it comes along it really is a game changer.
It was 23 years between 68 and 91; it is now 21 years since 94, with a glimmer of hope in 2010.

If I were to suggest an answer would be for the current set up to be more radical.
Throw off the shackles and f**kin go for it - and start by going back to basics. The largest part of Down's problem is the basic skills of passing, kicking scoring, and that is a sign of a lack of confidence.

Somehow McCorry has to get the team to buy into his methods and build their confidence in how they play football. If he cannot do this, he should make way as soon as possible. It is up to him to look at the players available and to come up with not just one style of play but a plan B as well. He MUST look at the height and strength issue within Down Football or else improve our football to the level where our smaller players thrive.

It is up to the management and to a certain extent the players to make it exciting to watch Down Football again. I think there are the players there to do it, it is just going to take some imagination, focus, planning and a real want to improve the situation. To want to become legends of the game rather than another generation of local heroes.

[supersub]

Very good points by PaulD, especially on attack and on passing and movement.
So what now folks - what is the answer? A clear-out of players, manager and county board staff?

Which a) is not going to happen and b) would cause another few years of hurt and no direction.

What pains me is that you are not seen to be a competent manager unless you ape the tactics of Jimmy McGuinness, and before him, Harte and McKernan. These managers, along with Fitzmaurice and Gavin have looked at the players available to them (including older players who couldn't commit) and came up with a system that worked for that team. You cannot compare the Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal teams of the last fifteen years. They were all different yet their style of play was thrown under the blanket defence tag. Forwards defending and vice versa has always been around - who remembers Ross Carr catching balls in his own penalty era, or Paul Higgins/DJ Kane scoring points?

How do we compete with these teams? I am waiting for a team to come up with a different style of play to beat the current defensive systems that all managers are judged by, and change Gaelic Football.

Down did it in the sixties and nineties, Clare did it a couple of years ago in the hurling and (although some don't like the comparison with other sports) Barcelona changed soccer and the way it is played.

I suppose I think that is why we are always left wringing our hands at poor Down performances. Alright we have to wait for our glory, but when it comes along it really is a game changer.
It was 23 years between 68 and 91; it is now 21 years since 94, with a glimmer of hope in 2010.

If I were to suggest an answer would be for the current set up to be more radical.
Throw off the shackles and f**kin go for it - and start by going back to basics. The largest part of Down's problem is the basic skills of passing, kicking scoring, and that is a sign of a lack of confidence.

Somehow McCorry has to get the team to buy into his methods and build their confidence in how they play football. If he cannot do this, he should make way as soon as possible. It is up to him to look at the players available and to come up with not just one style of play but a plan B as well. He MUST look at the height and strength issue within Down Football or else improve our football to the level where our smaller players thrive.

It is up to the management and to a certain extent the players to make it exciting to watch Down Football again. I think there are the players there to do it, it is just going to take some imagination, focus, planning and a real want to improve the situation. To want to become legends of the game rather than another generation of local heroes.

These systems and managers only come around as often as you have mentioned, but I would point to arguably the form team in the country over the past few years, Dublin, they have a way of playing that when prepared, would beat any blanket defence. I know they were turned over last year but maybe that was a lack of preparation on their part.id say if they face Donegal this year the result will be different. Pace power and clinical finishing is how the dubs do it. Maybe others could take leaf from their book. In addition to that, the Barcelona reference isn't quite the same, They didn't change the way the game was played, it has been like that for years, going back to the great European Cup winning teams who played keep ball as their bread and butter! Barcelona just happen to have one of the best there ever will be playing for them, and a few more world class men around him.

[general_lee]

As (sort of) an outsider looking in, I can't understand why so many key men no longer feature for Down when they could still have something to offer.

Is McComiskey still in the country these days? What about Dan Gordon? Ambrose? Even big King? Benny? Throw Clarke into the mix who admittedly will probably be back and you have six really big players with tons of experience.

The likes of Benny for presence alone in a changing room is worth it - confidence/ignorance/cockiness whatever you wanna call it, what I always associated with Down is missing (on the field, maybe not so much the CC on a sat night). Whatever age he is, however past it he is, I can guarantee no defender in Ireland would look forward to benny waddling over to him for the last ten mins of a tight game.

How that current crop got promoted is an achievement in itself so I wouldn't lay all the blame with the mgmt. that said if they aren't keeping an open mind they are hindering any chance of proper development by not properly managing the playing resources the county has on offer.

Even we in Armagh are laughing at yous and we're nothing to shout about!

[5 Sams]

As (sort of) an outsider looking in, I can't understand why so many key men no longer feature for Down when they could still have something to offer.

Is McComiskey still in the country these days? What about Dan Gordon? Ambrose? Even big King? Benny? Throw Clarke into the mix who admittedly will probably be back and you have six really big players with tons of experience.

The likes of Benny for presence alone in a changing room is worth it - confidence/ignorance/cockiness whatever you wanna call it, what I always associated with Down is missing (on the field, maybe not so much the CC on a sat night). Whatever age he is, however past it he is, I can guarantee no defender in Ireland would look forward to benny waddling over to him for the last ten mins of a tight game.

How that current crop got promoted is an achievement in itself so I wouldn't lay all the blame with the mgmt. that said if they aren't keeping an open mind they are hindering any chance of proper development by not properly managing the playing resources the county has on offer.

Even we in Armagh are laughing at yous and we're nothing to shout about!

All still playing club football!

[PAULD123]

Like I said, all those players would improve the team but without a change in approach we would still be going nowhere. If Down played like Kilcoo I believe we would be a better team. Kilcoo always played with a target man and two corner forwards. Kilcoo kicked plenty of direct ball and didn't have this backward passing obsession Jim has used in the county team. Devlin played in the forwards and delivered good ball inside.

Most importantly Kilcoo attack space not just congest it.

Better players playing a bad system just means better players putting on a bad performance.

[SamFever]

We still lost.

[SHEEDY]

We still lost.

and im still pissed off about it 3 days later.

[BarryBreensBandage]

Very good points by PaulD, especially on attack and on passing and movement.
So what now folks - what is the answer? A clear-out of players, manager and county board staff?

Which a) is not going to happen and b) would cause another few years of hurt and no direction.

What pains me is that you are not seen to be a competent manager unless you ape the tactics of Jimmy McGuinness, and before him, Harte and McKernan. These managers, along with Fitzmaurice and Gavin have looked at the players available to them (including older players who couldn't commit) and came up with a system that worked for that team. You cannot compare the Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal teams of the last fifteen years. They were all different yet their style of play was thrown under the blanket defence tag. Forwards defending and vice versa has always been around - who remembers Ross Carr catching balls in his own penalty era, or Paul Higgins/DJ Kane scoring points?

How do we compete with these teams? I am waiting for a team to come up with a different style of play to beat the current defensive systems that all managers are judged by, and change Gaelic Football.

Down did it in the sixties and nineties, Clare did it a couple of years ago in the hurling and (although some don't like the comparison with other sports) Barcelona changed soccer and the way it is played.

I suppose I think that is why we are always left wringing our hands at poor Down performances. Alright we have to wait for our glory, but when it comes along it really is a game changer.
It was 23 years between 68 and 91; it is now 21 years since 94, with a glimmer of hope in 2010.

If I were to suggest an answer would be for the current set up to be more radical.
Throw off the shackles and f**kin go for it - and start by going back to basics. The largest part of Down's problem is the basic skills of passing, kicking scoring, and that is a sign of a lack of confidence.

Somehow McCorry has to get the team to buy into his methods and build their confidence in how they play football. If he cannot do this, he should make way as soon as possible. It is up to him to look at the players available and to come up with not just one style of play but a plan B as well. He MUST look at the height and strength issue within Down Football or else improve our football to the level where our smaller players thrive.

It is up to the management and to a certain extent the players to make it exciting to watch Down Football again. I think there are the players there to do it, it is just going to take some imagination, focus, planning and a real want to improve the situation. To want to become legends of the game rather than another generation of local heroes.

These systems and managers only come around as often as you have mentioned, but I would point to arguably the form team in the country over the past few years, Dublin, they have a way of playing that when prepared, would beat any blanket defence. I know they were turned over last year but maybe that was a lack of preparation on their part.id say if they face Donegal this year the result will be different. Pace power and clinical finishing is how the dubs do it. Maybe others could take leaf from their book. In addition to that, the Barcelona reference isn't quite the same, They didn't change the way the game was played, it has been like that for years, going back to the great European Cup winning teams who played keep ball as their bread and butter! Barcelona just happen to have one of the best there ever will be playing for them, and a few more world class men around him.

Just my opinion Supersub, not based on anything knowledgeable or scientific. Just that personally I have never seen a team play soccer like the Barcelona/Spain teams of five/six years ago, nor the way Clare won the AIF a couple of years ago. I have never seen an Irish Rugby team play like they played up until the end of last year. Look at the change in Donegal over the past five years. For me, it is definitely down to the impact the management has on the team.

What would worry me is that so many Down players have walked away from the panel in recent years. We should be fielding a whole team of players with AIF + 5 extra years county experience. It is sad in a way that the relative success of 2010 was not built on and that many good, decent players have left. Was there much done to stop them? An honest question.

[Blue Island]

Quote from BarryBreensBandage

"I suppose I think that is why we are always left wringing our hands at poor Down performances. Alright we have to wait for our glory, but when it comes along it really is a game changer.
It was 23 years between 68 and 91; it is now 21 years since 94, with a glimmer of hope in 2010."

I think that is optimistic to say the least, In the 23 years between 68 and 91, we were at least contenders,challenging for Ulster titles and we were a force in the League in the eighties. In the 21 years since 94 we have not won an Ulster, or even really been fancied to win one.

I think there is something systematically wrong with Down football at the minute and I don't think our manager can take too much of the blame for the problems at the moment.

I would agree that he could have managed the older players better and invited some of them to join the squad in the spring. They had put years of service in for Down and I can't imagine any of the current squad begrudging these stalwarts a return to the team after their winter breaks. However, whilst it might have got us past Wexford, I think it would have papered over the cracks. Legend that Benny was and is, we saw from his last season with Down, that the best we could hope for was half a game at most. Ambrose is not nearly the player he was, because he has suffered injuries that would have ended many a career. We know Clarke has health problems. One would hope Dan could make a return, but he has a lot of commitments.

There are some good ideas being mentioned. The championship modelled on the Kerry system should be given another chance and more effort put in to make it work. We obviously need to work on youth development, but for me the most pressing change needs to be a return to the league and championship that existed up to the wins in 91 and 94.

The move back to a ten team division is welcome and about time, but we should get rid of the starred system and stick with the two up and two down. Championship should be a straight knock out. When you played a league match through the 80s and early 90s every match was crucial. A run of early loses and you were in serious bother. Each match was a real test and you always had your best 15 out on the field and other players improved playing against the county players. The atmosphere was better, the stakes higher and the matches far more competitive. In my opinion there are too many dead rubbers now and as a consequence of a poor league, we now don't produce the players we did, or at least not enough of them.

91 and 94 did not come out of nowhere. Some of the Burren lads would tell you some of the toughest games they had in their glory days were in Down. Pete McGrath was able to leave Bundy Mason and Shorty Trainor out of his squad and at various stages he he did not start Gerrard Deegan and Ciaran McCabe. That in itself gives an indication of the strength of Down football at the time.

I accept under the old system the latter third of the season had it share of dead rubbers, but there were less frequent than now and usually occurred in September when the season was winding down. I also accept the league was put in hold when Down was doing well and that annoyed some. Indeed, I was in favour of the starred system for that reason, but I now believe we killed the goose that layed the golden egg.

If we want a strong Down team, lets start by having a strong league and championship, where every (or at least the majority) of games played are competitive and meaningfull.

[Kernan_is_King]

Very good points by PaulD, especially on attack and on passing and movement.
So what now folks - what is the answer? A clear-out of players, manager and county board staff?

Which a) is not going to happen and b) would cause another few years of hurt and no direction.

What pains me is that you are not seen to be a competent manager unless you ape the tactics of Jimmy McGuinness, and before him, Harte and McKernan. These managers, along with Fitzmaurice and Gavin have looked at the players available to them (including older players who couldn't commit) and came up with a system that worked for that team. You cannot compare the Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal teams of the last fifteen years. They were all different yet their style of play was thrown under the blanket defence tag. Forwards defending and vice versa has always been around - who remembers Ross Carr catching balls in his own penalty era, or Paul Higgins/DJ Kane scoring points?

Do not confuse a great Armagh manager with a mere Down player.

[Aristo 60]

A mere 10 stone of difference should help us all distinguish between the pair 

[interested]

Quote from BarryBreensBandage

"I suppose I think that is why we are always left wringing our hands at poor Down performances. Alright we have to wait for our glory, but when it comes along it really is a game changer.
It was 23 years between 68 and 91; it is now 21 years since 94, with a glimmer of hope in 2010."

I think that is optimistic to say the least, In the 23 years between 68 and 91, we were at least contenders,challenging for Ulster titles and we were a force in the League in the eighties. In the 21 years since 94 we have not won an Ulster, or even really been fancied to win one.

I think there is something systematically wrong with Down football at the minute and I don't think our manager can take too much of the blame for the problems at the moment.

I would agree that he could have managed the older players better and invited some of them to join the squad in the spring. They had put years of service in for Down and I can't imagine any of the current squad begrudging these stalwarts a return to the team after their winter breaks. However, whilst it might have got us past Wexford, I think it would have papered over the cracks. Legend that Benny was and is, we saw from his last season with Down, that the best we could hope for was half a game at most. Ambrose is not nearly the player he was, because he has suffered injuries that would have ended many a career. We know Clarke has health problems. One would hope Dan could make a return, but he has a lot of commitments.

There are some good ideas being mentioned. The championship modelled on the Kerry system should be given another chance and more effort put in to make it work. We obviously need to work on youth development, but for me the most pressing change needs to be a return to the league and championship that existed up to the wins in 91 and 94.

The move back to a ten team division is welcome and about time, but we should get rid of the starred system and stick with the two up and two down. Championship should be a straight knock out. When you played a league match through the 80s and early 90s every match was crucial. A run of early loses and you were in serious bother. Each match was a real test and you always had your best 15 out on the field and other players improved playing against the county players. The atmosphere was better, the stakes higher and the matches far more competitive. In my opinion there are too many dead rubbers now and as a consequence of a poor league, we now don't produce the players we did, or at least not enough of them.

91 and 94 did not come out of nowhere. Some of the Burren lads would tell you some of the toughest games they had in their glory days were in Down. Pete McGrath was able to leave Bundy Mason and Shorty Trainor out of his squad and at various stages he he did not start Gerrard Deegan and Ciaran McCabe. That in itself gives an indication of the strength of Down football at the time.

I accept under the old system the latter third of the season had it share of dead rubbers, but there were less frequent than now and usually occurred in September when the season was winding down. I also accept the league was put in hold when Down was doing well and that annoyed some. Indeed, I was in favour of the starred system for that reason, but I now believe we killed the goose that layed the golden egg.

If we want a strong Down team, lets start by having a strong league and championship, where every (or at least the majority) of games played are competitive and meaningfull.

Divisions 1&2 are 12 team leagues next year.

[SHEEDY]

We're hardly dying. We got into Div1.
Wexford here I come! Move on and forget
about the past!

Surprised there's been no comment on Danny Hughes's article in the Irish News. Doesn't miss in his assessment of where the failings are.

didnt see the article. in what areas does he feel the failings are? who comes in for criticism?

[wobbller]

We're hardly dying. We got into Div1.
Wexford here I come! Move on and forget
about the past!

Surprised there's been no comment on Danny Hughes's article in the Irish News. Doesn't miss in his assessment of where the failings are.

didnt see the article. in what areas does he feel the failings are? who comes in for criticism?

Inside back page of yesterday's paper

[snoopdog]

Can anyone post Danny's comments. Don't  have the paper from Wednesday but would be interesting reading.