Proposals to change the All Ireland Football structures

[shezam]

GAA have circulated a 85 page document to all counties with 18 proposals at the start of the week.

Eighteen!!!
At least there's plenty to discuss anyway and they are all real proposals. Who was it said only journalists and Gaaboarders were talking about changing AI senior Inter County???
Hard to see an agreed proposal going to Congress 2016.

Here http://www.filedropper.com/allirelandseniorfootballchampionshipproposals2017andbeyond

They want responses with the view to forwarding a proposal to congress.

[Rossfan]

Thanks shezam.
Hard for th'oul brain to take it all in!

[Il Bomber Destro]

I think the current structure is fine as it is with an exception for the qualifiers. There is definitely an imbalance in the Provincial Championships but because of the tradition of them and the value I would have attached to the Ulster title I would hate toe see them being devalued or scrapped.

If there is an imbalance to the provincial championships which there is, then the qualifiers should seek to redress that balance. Look at the draw for next year's Championship. It's absolutely guaranteed than a minimum of four teams from Ulster who compete in the top two divisions are definitely going to be in the hat for the first round of the qualifiers, where they could be drawn against each other in the very first round and gone by the middle of June after playing two games. Some people may say that's the luck of the draw but it's not, with the way the format is structured around the Provincial Championships - it's not an open draw, a lot of it is predetermined and certain counties have significant advantages. Cork and Kerry can pretty much look forward to an easy run to a minimum of the last 8 every year without breaking sweat.

The qualifiers, as much as reasonably possible, should aim to seperate counties from the same province meeting until a minimum of the last 12. You see it in the football World Cup where countries are seeded on Geographical basis for the groups stages, certain groups do end up with two European countries in a group due to the overflow of European teams in it but I do think it's a fair reflection on protecting the teams who had the more difficult route to getting there.

Round One:

The first round of the qualifiers includes 16 teams:

5 from Ulster
7 from Leinster
2 from Munster
2 from  Connacht

On this basis you could spit it up say:

Pot A:
5 Ulster teams
2 Munster teams
1 Connacht team

Pot B:
7 Leinster teams
1 Connacht team

In this round there would be a stipulation that the Connacht teams can't draw each other.

Round Two:

For argument sake we will say the following teams progressed from the round one phase:

Pot A:
4 Ulster
3 Leinster
1 Munster

Pot B:
2 losing semi finalists from each province

Again there would be a stipulation where teams from the same province can't meet, the only case whereby this could not be possible would be if the 7 Leinster counties won their games.

a) That's highly unlikely
b) In the event of it then there will be one all provincial game

Round Three:

Here the winners will again be separated into different pots defined by their provincial attachment, for arguments sake we will say it is of the following composition:

4 Ulster
2 Leinster
1 Connacht
1 Munster

Given the numbers here we can put the Ulster counties into one pot and the rest into another.

Round Four:

Here you have the winners from Round Three playing off against the losing Provincial Finalists, for argument sake we will say the composition of the Round Three winners are put into Pot A as follows:

Pot A:
2 Ulster
1 Leinster
1 Connacht

Pot B:
Losing finalist from each province, again I would like to see Provincial match-ups being avoided until the last 8.

[StephenC]

I think the current structure is fine as it is with an exception for the qualifiers. There is definitely an imbalance in the Provincial Championships but because of the tradition of them and the value I would have attached to the Ulster title I would hate toe see them being devalued or scrapped.

If there is an imbalance to the provincial championships which there is, then the qualifiers should seek to redress that balance. Look at the draw for next year's Championship. It's absolutely guaranteed than a minimum of four teams from Ulster who compete in the top two divisions are definitely going to be in the hat for the first round of the qualifiers, where they could be drawn against each other in the very first round and gone by the middle of June after playing two games. Some people may say that's the luck of the draw but it's not, with the way the format is structured around the Provincial Championships - it's not an open draw, a lot of it is predetermined and certain counties have significant advantages. Cork and Kerry can pretty much look forward to an easy run to a minimum of the last 8 every year without breaking sweat.

The qualifiers, as much as reasonably possible, should aim to seperate counties from the same province meeting until a minimum of the last 12. You see it in the football World Cup where countries are seeded on Geographical basis for the groups stages, certain groups do end up with two European countries in a group due to the overflow of European teams in it but I do think it's a fair reflection on protecting the teams who had the more difficult route to getting there.

Round One:

The first round of the qualifiers includes 16 teams:

5 from Ulster
7 from Leinster
2 from Munster
2 from  Connacht

On this basis you could spit it up say:

Pot A:
5 Ulster teams
2 Munster teams
1 Connacht team

Pot B:
7 Leinster teams
1 Connacht team

In this round there would be a stipulation that the Connacht teams can't draw each other.

Round Two:

For argument sake we will say the following teams progressed from the round one phase:

Pot A:
4 Ulster
3 Leinster
1 Munster

Pot B:
2 losing semi finalists from each province

Again there would be a stipulation where teams from the same province can't meet, the only case whereby this could not be possible would be if the 7 Leinster counties won their games.

a) That's highly unlikely
b) In the event of it then there will be one all provincial game

Round Three:

Here the winners will again be separated into different pots defined by their provincial attachment, for arguments sake we will say it is of the following composition:

4 Ulster
2 Leinster
1 Connacht
1 Munster

Given the numbers here we can put the Ulster counties into one pot and the rest into another.

Round Four:

Here you have the winners from Round Three playing off against the losing Provincial Finalists, for argument sake we will say the composition of the Round Three winners are put into Pot A as follows:

Pot A:
2 Ulster
1 Leinster
1 Connacht

Pot B:
Losing finalist from each province, again I would like to see Provincial match-ups being avoided until the last 8.

Which one of the 18 proposals is that?

[Rossfan]

Heard there was no agreement at CC on any proposal to go to Congress.
Hardly surprising as Counties/clubs only had a couple of weeks to examine a 85 page Document with 17 or 18 different proposals in it.

[Rossfan]

 Latest is that the CCCC is circulating 3 proposals to Counties with a view to having a new format in 2017.
All include keeping the Provincials.

[Esmarelda]

Latest is that the CCCC is circulating 3 proposals to Counties with a view to having a new format in 2017.
All include keeping the Provincials.

Any ideas on which ones they are?

[Croí na hÉireann]

Latest is that the CCCC is circulating 3 proposals to Counties with a view to having a new format in 2017.
All include keeping the Provincials.

Any ideas on which ones they are?

GPA proposal not one of the three anyway.

[Esmarelda]

I wonder are they three of the specific proposals or maybe a mix of parts of a few proposals.

I'm most interested to see if a B Championship is included in some or all of them.

[Rossfan]

I expect there is but hopefully to allow the "B" ( or  Intermediate AI) winners into race for Sam.

[BennyHarp]

So this article from the Irish News suggests that there was 4 changes given consideration by the CCCC with the GPA's idea quickly poo pooed! Looks like we'll see a slightly watered down version of what we have and another stab at a B competition - inspirational stuff!

Cahair O'Kane
29 December, 2015 01:00

THE GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee has all but ruled out the prospect of adopting the GPA's proposed revamp of the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship.

The players' body had recommended a 32-team, Champions League style All-Ireland series involving 8 groups of 4 teams, from which 24 teams would qualify for the knockout stages.

Their proposal would have guaranteed each county a minimum of three Championship games, with the provincial championships to be played as standalone competitions in April and May.

But, despite having backing from 31 of the 32 county football squads, CCCC have shot down their proposals and hammered the idea of a round robin system that "would take 48 games to eliminate just 8 teams", adding that "it seems like a whole lot of games with very little at the end of it all, which will not appeal to supporters or possibly even players themselves and would, in CCCC's view, serve to ultimately devalue the Championships".

It also warned that toying with the 'knockout or near knockout' element of the Championship would lead to the GAA "paying the consequences for attendances, bite etc".

Of the GPA proposals, CCCC also said that putting the provincial Championships as a standalone competition "will devalue those competitions in a very short period of time and would ultimately spell the end for them."

A meeting of Ard Chomhairle on November 14 'agreed broadly' that the current structure of the provincial championships should be retained.

It also agreed that any proposed alterations to the Championship should not involved adding more games to the current structure, which appears to rule out the idea of a round-robin Championship.

Ard Chomhairle did recommend exploring the 'feasibility of a second championship for lesser successful counties'.

Having looked at a total of 18 proposals, they narrowed the choices down to three, which were discussed at lengthy CCCC meetings on November 26 and December 1.

CCCC also discussed the GPA's proposals on the basis that it had been "submitted...on behalf of inter county players."

The other proposals received by Ard Chomhairle, put forward from various unnamed locations, were narrowed down to three, of which the CCCC appears to heavily favour one.

Of the proposals forwarded by Ard Chomhairle, it proposes the least radical change.

'Proposal 18' would see the provincial Championships stay as they are, with the introduction of a second tier Championship.

CCCC says that it is "the closest solution on show to the original brief of ensuring the structure best meets the needs of the less successful counties".

'Proposal 17' proposes the introduction of a round-robin provincial system, but based on groups of three as opposed to groups of four.

CCCC says that the prospect of guaranteeing at least one home Championship game for every county is appealing, and the fact that the proposal "clearly does not impact on the club calendar" is positive.

However, with the number of groups differing in the four provinces, the number of teams qualifying from groups would differentiate.

This, along with the fact that a team could potentially exit the Championship on score difference, is described by CCCC as 'a pretty major flaw'.

The other idea, 'Proposal 8', retains the provincial Championships and introduces four tiers of seeding to the All-Ireland Championship, which is run on a straight knockout basis.

The bottom two tiers would enter at the first round stage, with tier two following in round two and the top seeds entering at round three.

While agreeing that the proposal had its positives, CCCC appeared to rule it out on the basis that the lowest rank seeds must play against a higher seed, which it says is "at total odds with the original intention of the debate".

CCCC findings on key proposals were as follows;

Proposal 8

Retains the provincial Championships
All-Ireland becomes seeded, based on previous year's provincial Championship and the current year's league
Knockout All-Ireland Championship cannot start until after the provincial finals
Four tiers of seeding
Tiers 3 and 4 enter in round one; Tier 2 enters in round two; Tier 1 enters in round three
Open draw for quarter-finals and semi-finals

CCCC observations

'A change for change's sake'
Main issue is All-Ireland not starting until after the provincial Championships end – 'fair to assume it would have a fairly large impact on club games'
Seeding system not much different to what is currently in place
Reward for winning Provincial Championship isn't felt until the following year
Open draw for quarter- and semi-finals potentially devalues provincial champions as they could potentially be paired with the beaten finalists again
System ensures that lowest rank seeds MUST play against a higher seed, which is 'at total odds with the original intention of the debate'

Proposal 17

Retains provincial Championships but on a limited round robin basis
Groups of three in provincial Championships leading to provincial semi-finals
Ulster 3 groups of 3; Leinster 4 groups; Connacht 2 groups; Munster 2 groups
Assures one home and one away game for each county
Groups of three offer more to play for than in groups of four
Doesn't impact on club window

CCCC observations

Advantage lies with guaranteeing an annual home Championship game for every county
Clearly will not impact on the club calendar
Creates even-numbered groups within each province without having to 'transfer' counties to another province
Only 11 teams currently in Leinster – New York not viable, CCCC not comfortable with adding Kilkenny at 'their current stage of development'
Includes a second tier competition for Division 3 and 4 teams that don't reach provincial final
Over-familiarity of teams within provinces a potential issue
Inequity in terms of number of teams qualifying for provincial semi-finals between different provinces – ie two from each group would qualify in Munster, but only top team in Ulster would be guaranteed to progress
Potential for a team to exit the Championship on score difference, and possibility of teams exiting on 2 points while others progress on the same total, 'a pretty major flaw'

Proposal 18

Provincial Championship as it is with second tier Championship
8 teams eligible for 2nd tier Championship (based on Division 4 of most recent league) who do not qualify for provincial final
Reduces qualifier system by one round and adds three games for 2nd tier teams

CCCC observations

11 of the 18 proposals submitted looked for a second tier – 'we cannot ignore this even though it appears players from weaker counties would not be in favour'
Longer Championship involvement for 2nd tier teams could impact on club Championships in those counties
Offers the 'best of both worlds' to less successful counties
Those counties won't be exposed to embarrassingly one-sided qualifier games against strong opposition
Been tried before (Tommy Murphy Cup) – could it be guaranteed to be more attractive this time?
Could be amended to allow entry for winners to preliminary All-Ireland quarter-final
Closest solution on show to the original brief of ensuring structure best meets needs of less successful counties

GPA Proposal

32-team, Champions League style All-Ireland series with 8 groups of 4 teams
Top 3 teams in all groups qualify for next phase
Each county has a minimum of three Championship games
National Leagues remain as they are but no finals or semi-finals, and league positions will affect Championship seeding
Provincial Championships played as standalone competitions in April and May
Removes pre-season competitions in the provinces

CCCC observations

No real incentive for teams to win their provincial Championship – would ultimately spell the end for them
Number of games proposed at the times of year they're proposed at is bound to have a further negative impact on the club player
Takes no account for the hurling championship needing to be played
Round robin system would take 48 games to eliminate just 8 teams
Huge amount of dead-rubber games and more one-sided games
Doesn't particularly help the weaker teams. 'A cynic might suggest they will simply have more games to lose'
Toying with knockout or near-knockout games – 'the real jewel in the GAA crown' – will have consequences for attendances and the quality of games
Past round robin experiments have led to a huge decrease in attendances
Very little interest from spectators in early rounds, especially if 3 teams from every group of 4 qualify for next phase. Idea would devalue the Championships

[smelmoth]

CCCC are correct to say that the GPA proposal will, in the end, spell the end of the provincial championships. If the provincial championships are the acred cow (and in ulster they probably are) then CCCC were right. But should the provincial championships be a sacred cow?

As a starting point for the current AI series they are unequal and therefore unfair. If they fall away when their role in kicking off the AI series is discontinued then do they deserved to be preserved as sacred cows?

[Rossfan]

Unless the new version of the "Tommy Murphy" gives entry to the race for Sam then it will be booted out the door.
Did any county Convention come uop with anything better I wonder?

[6th sam]

Impact on club football seems always to be a major sticking point, and rightly so.
It is time that the GAA bites the bullet and ensures that club football proceeds even when county football is going ahead. It seems to me that this is the only solution, as it ensures regular football for club players while protecting county players. The GAA needs to have basically club league football that can go ahead , even in the absence of county players, and club championship football when clubs have unrestricted access to their county players. This concept works well in rugby ie the international player management system. County players would be released to their clubs as soon as their county season is over, or in some cases, if they are not in the squad of 24 for the next county game. If the AI Intercounty final went ahead at end of August, that would give sept/oct for an extended club championship , with a system which includes involvement of all clubs for at least 6weeks , until semi and finals , including B championships , and relegation finals. Provincial club championships proceed in November , with all Ireland semis and finals in December , including the novelty of pre-Christmas club finals in Croke park under lights

[6th sam]

The season would look something like this :
Dec: only club AI series & ?sigerson
Jan/Feb : preseason , no matches .
March/ April : league football , county and club. Including county u17/u20/senior with no squad crossover. League football should seed for championship.
May/early June : exam season/no county football matches/unrestricted club football.
Mid June to early sept: intercounty football championship at all levels, with minimum of 3 games/ club league football
Sept/oct : unrestricted club football
Nov/dec: provincial/AI club championship/? Sigerson.

The above is the only way we can ensure regular club matches for all,  and protect county players from burnout/pressure from competing managers.

This may seem like a dramatic change, but it is essentially just a development of the current club calendar, with the only difference being the earlier AI Intercounty final. The extended club championship keeping all clubs active in sept/oct and the prechristmas club allirelands which I think will be very popular , allowing the GAA great exposure in December , these finals could also link in with the international rules series!
A key point is not allowing Intercounty squad crossover , but having more actual matches for young Intercounty players , which will enhance their development.
It puts the emphasis back on actually playing matches at both Intercounty and club level as opposed to long gaps between matches .
It takes pressure of both players and managements by defining the timeframes when players are available