Eighth Amendment poll

[thebigfella]

When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?

Maybe from a pure legal point of view but generally proving "a crime committed against the mother" takes the legal system longer than 9 months.  So useless in a practical sense.

/Jim.

Exactly.

You can imagine the usual nutcases taking action preventing the mother from having a termination on the basis of the above legal loophole. It's not workable.

[Hardy]

One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.

- hardly mentioned in this whole thread and never a platform of the lunatic element of the 'no' campaign. Indeed they are generally opposed to contraception, easy access to sexual health services and even sex education in some cases.

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained
"The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services."

[sid waddell]

i) Forcing 12 year old rape victims to give birth against their will
ii) Forcing victims of incest to give birth against their will
iii) Forcing a woman carrying a pregnancy affected by a fatal foetal abnormality to carry that pregnancy to term and act as nothing more than a vessel
iv) Denying pregnant cancer sufferers life-saving treatment
v) Denying basic healthcare such as X-rays to pregnant women or even non-pregnant women until they can prove sufficiently that they are not pregnant
vi) Abandoning women who self-administer abortion in Ireland to a possible nightmarish dilemma beween seeking medical help and risking prison time and not presenting and risking grave health implications
vii) Continuing to stigmatise women who have abortions, thus contributing to mental health problems

Sid, IF there was a mechanism and a wording that could amend the constitution to address points 1 to 3, would that be an acceptable alternative in your view to address those points rather than repealing the 8th (i haven't been following the thread so perhaps you have already commented on that ... if so, apologies for asking again!)?

Absolutely NOT.

Irish women want to be treated the same as they are across the rest of Europe. Yellow pack "solutions" are not good enough.

Point 4 is a tricky one .... treatment is possible in trimester 2 while early deliver is an option in trimester 3. Therefore it is 'only' a 4-6 week window where there is a medical challenge in very rare cases, i.e.: from identification of pregnancy to end of first trimester. I believe such a scenario should also be possible to address in a constitutional amendment up until such time as medicine evolves to ensure cancer is treatable in the first trimester

We have a multitude of evidence that cancer sufferers have been denied treatment because of the 8th Amendment. And that's the end of that particular debate. The 8th Amendment denies women cancer treatment. That is a fact.

I'm not clear on your point #5 ... are you suggesting x-rays should be given without a pregnancy question ?

No. I'm saying that pregnant women should not be denied X-rays, as they have been because of the 8th Amendment. We have stories where women who are not even pregnant at all have been forced to wait weeks for X-rays. This is a disgrace.

How would you propose to address #6 given that this is such a big problem in the UK (which is a reasonable reference case to compare to). By and large, i would expect that percentage of those who self-administer today to reduce slightly in the event of a Yes + proposed legislation but for significant numbers to self-administer (privacy, cost, convenience, etc)

By oblterating the 8th Amendment and making abortion pills legal, and not making women face a nightmarish dilemma whether to present and risk prison or not present and risk grave health implications, should anything go wrong.

I don't understand your point #7. Where is there any stigmatisation today ? How can there be when we have no clinics, etc. And do you think a Yes vote will mean no stigmatisation in future ? The opposite would in fact be the case because undoubtedly you would have nut jobs on the 'yes' side standing outside the inevitable private clinics that would spring up or 'yes' insiders in the HSE leaking info of or whatever else.

Here's the spokesman for the Save The 8th campaign. Not only does he acknowledge there is stigmatisation, he wants it to continue. I have't a clue what you're on about in the rest of that passage.

All in all, removing the 8th is a step to far for me. I am voting 'No', also because of the culture it will create within 5-10 years. If a way to amend the constitution to address your points # 1 to #4 could be identified then i would campaign for a 'Yes'. And lest anyone comment that the citizens Assembly or Oireachtas committee couldn't find a wording - that was with respect to the wording of the Heads of Bill. They should have been empowered to look at a re-wording of the constitution.

You're voting against what you claim to be for.

Rationalising a No vote on that basis is like the East German government rationalising the denial of human rights because they fear they will be overthrown and rationalising keeping their people trapped inside the country because they fear they will flee.

You know it's wrong, but you're prepared to enforce indefensible violations of human rights to protect the system at all costs.

[sid waddell]

Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning

How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

So what you're saying is that it is about as common as an 8 1/2 month pregnant women feigning suiciadal thoughts and aborting a perfectly viable baby......which is exactly the argument Ronan Mullen would have for KEEPING the Eight.   

It can happen, and it probably has happened, but it happens so infrequently that it should not be one of the situations that defines the debate

The only person feigning anything here is you, with your feigned "support" for abolishing the 8th Amendment, which is about as believable as anything Ronan Mullen says.

[sid waddell]

When Michael McDowell was Attorney General in 2002, he proposed an amendment to the 8th....
The subsection shall not invalidate laws enacted by the Oireachtas to permit and regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is alleged in a prescribed form to be the result of a crime committed against the mother

Accepting the difficulties of subsequent legislation for rape, it shows that addressing many scenarios via an amendment could have been quite straight forward.

And Sid, any thoughts on my last post ?

What Michael McDowell proposed in 2002 was to outlaw suicide as a grounds for being a threat to the life of the mother - ie. to tighten the abortion laws (or not, as was the case - because the X Case wasn't legislated for until 2013) and reverse the X Case. This was basically a re-run of the 1992 referendum which was also defeated.

Had it passed, it would not have materially altered the 8th Amendment, it would have returned it to the pre-1992 position in this regard.

Thankfully, it was defeated.

McDowell has obviously changed his views considerably for the better in the meantime.

[Billys Boots]

One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.

- hardly mentioned in this whole thread and never a platform of the lunatic element of the 'no' campaign. Indeed they are generally opposed to contraception, easy access to sexual health services and even sex education in some cases.

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained
"The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services."

I didn't get involved in any of this debate, really, but I am voting YES.  I find it outrageous really, that 50% of our population are being forced to remain pregnant when they don't want to be, or don't choose to be.  I don't think abortion is a good thing, but I certainly don't think I should be in a position to force a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant to remain so, whatever the reason, or whatever I personally believe. 

[Hardy]

One thing that doesn't get enough attention re abortion rates is insightful sex education. Teenagers shouldn't have to learn from porn.

- hardly mentioned in this whole thread and never a platform of the lunatic element of the 'no' campaign. Indeed they are generally opposed to contraception, easy access to sexual health services and even sex education in some cases.

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained
"The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services."

I didn't get involved in any of this debate, really, but I am voting YES.  I find it outrageous really, that 50% of our population are being forced to remain pregnant when they don't want to be, or don't choose to be.  I don't think abortion is a good thing, but I certainly don't think I should be in a position to force a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant to remain so, whatever the reason, or whatever I personally believe. 

That is exactly what I would have written if asked about my position.

[whitey]

Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning

How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

So what you're saying is that it is about as common as an 8 1/2 month pregnant women feigning suiciadal thoughts and aborting a perfectly viable baby......which is exactly the argument Ronan Mullen would have for KEEPING the Eight.   

It can happen, and it probably has happened, but it happens so infrequently that it should not be one of the situations that defines the debate

The only person feigning anything here is you, with your feigned "support" for abolishing the 8th Amendment, which is about as believable as anything Ronan Mullen says.

Believe whatever you want

It's kind of ironic that the some of the logic you use to justify your position is exactly the same logic as Ronan Mullen uses to justify his.   I think it will pass by about 10 points, but you have absolutely done your cause no favors with your antics on here.

There are No voters who are voting No with the very best of intentions and you should respect their decision.

[sid waddell]

Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

[whitey]

Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale

[Rossfan]

Have voted but with misgivings.
Secret ballot so no more to say.

[sid waddell]

Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale

There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

[whitey]

Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale

There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

Ehhhh.....I voted for Bernie Sanders (Primary) and Jill Stein(General Election) in 2016, but believe what you want.  Enjoy your victory......but you have become exactly what you accuse the No side of being

[magpie seanie]

Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale

There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

Sorry - have to break my moratorium. If there is a Yes vote then it's no thanks to people like you. Thankfully, not one person I've met involved in the Yes campaign is like you and that's why we might win. You don't change people's minds by abusing them.

[sid waddell]

Hey whitey - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You'll wear out the z on my keyboard yet if you keep posting such drivel, you know.

Haha.....keep it up


There was a hidden Brexit vote and a hidden Trump vote exactly because of the antics and carry on of people like you. You even jump down the necks of anyone who agrees with you in principle but disagrees with you around the edges of the debate (like me).

I'm sure there's a hidden No vote too, but it won't be anywhere near big enough to tip the scale

There's a massive Yes vote today precisely because of the antics of backward, neanderthal far right pigs like you.

Sorry - have to break my moratorium. If there is a Yes vote then it's no thanks to people like you. Thankfully, not one person I've met involved in the Yes campaign is like you and that's why we might win. You don't change people's minds by abusing them.

The No side have had 35 long years of dishing out abuse.

I have absolutely NO respect for their views precisely because their views are entirely based on disrespecting and vilfying others in the most damaging way possible.

Fook them.

Their beloved Ireland of squinting windows and Magdalene laundries and marriage bars and women being barred from juries and industrial schools and forced symphysiotomies and gay people being forced to deny who they are and contraceptives being banned and kissing the bishop's ring and corporal punishment and mother and baby homes and paedophile priests and teenage girls giving birth in grottos and ditches with needles and scissors is GONE.

And it's never, ever coming back.