Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

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Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Taylor

Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

longballin

#766
Would also say I've seen a lot of nastiness from No crowd long before there was this referendum. Claim to be Christains but their treatment of women is abusive

sid waddell

Quote from: longballin on May 24, 2018, 01:17:41 PM
Would also say I've seen a lot of nastiness from No crowd long before there was this referendum. Claim to be Christains but treat their treatment of women is abusive

The Pro Life Campaign's definition of love is cruel

Diarmaid Ferriter: It is a strange kind of love that denies a teenage rape victim an abortion

Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 05:00

Speaking at the unveiling of the Pro Life Campaign's "Love Both" campaign during the week, spokeswoman Caroline Simons said: "Voters who support abortion in limited circumstances need to know that what they hope for with repeal and what they get are two entirely different things."

What astounding arrogance. Simons has decided that those who will vote for the removal of the amendment have no independence of mind and are naive, delusional dupes who will vote next month unaware of the reality of what they are doing and devoid of a capacity for love. She has also decided what they hope for.

Doctors, it would seem, are also to be rendered incapable of autonomous thought if the amendment is removed, as according to Cora Sherlock they, "who are trained to protect life, will suddenly be expected to facilitate the taking of life". Should the amendment be removed, we will live in totalitarian times and no doubt about it.

But at least the Pro Life Campaign is pro-love, so much so that it wants to retain and spread the love. Is this the "love" that resulted in a 14-year-old, suicidal rape victim in 1992 being prevented from leaving the county for an abortion. A a girl, in words conveyed in court, who said, "It is hard to go through the nine months. It is better to end it now than in nine months time?"

Is this the love felt in 2007 by a 17-year-old woman carrying a foetus with anencephaly who sought assistance from the Irish courts for a termination and was spat at and jeered entering and leaving the court?

Is this the "love" Savita Halappanavar felt in 2012 when she presented with back pain in University Hospital Galway, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later? Her husband, Praveen, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated.

Having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Savita asked for a medical termination. This was refused because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, "this is a Catholic country". She spent another 2½ days "in agony" until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

According to her husband, the doctor "told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn't survive". The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

"Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, "As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything."

Again, on Tuesday morning, as revealed in the testimony of Praveen, the same ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said "I am neither Irish nor Catholic" but they said there was nothing they could do.

Is that what the Pro-Life Campaign considers tough love?

And what about the love felt by a girl deemed to be at risk of suicide who wanted an abortion and was sectioned under the Mental Health Act because her treating psychiatrist said terminating the pregnancy "was not the solution".

In this case, an order was made to detain the girl on the evidence of a psychiatrist who said that while the child was at risk of self-harm and suicide as a result of the pregnancy, "this could be managed by treatment and that termination of pregnancy was not the solution for all the child's problems at this stage".

Or what about the love felt by this woman who gave testimony to the AbortionRights Campaign; with an unwanted pregnancy, she jumped into the Liffey: "I had ruined my life, no one wanted me. I didn't want to be pregnant ... poor and dependent on social welfare. My parents were angry with me for ruining my life, my boyfriend was angry with me and I was utterly disappointed in myself."
In the Liffey water, she was "frozen by the cold and slightly shocked that there was a strong current dragging me downstream".
Shame

She was rescued by a passerby and she found "someone, who knew someone who had had an abortion in Liverpool. I managed to get a number and book a flight... The shame, silence, isolation I have felt by my home country is shocking... I did not want single-mother handouts like the 'love them both' parade harp on about. I didn't want to be pregnant, end of."

The Pro Life Campaign's definition of love is cruelly simplistic; what they claim and what many women have experienced with crisis pregnancies are two entirely different things.

sid waddell

Quote from: longballin on May 24, 2018, 01:17:41 PM
Would also say I've seen a lot of nastiness from No crowd long before there was this referendum. Claim to be Christains but treat their treatment of women is abusive









bennydorano

Gobshites on both sides? Getaway

Syferus

Quote from: bennydorano on May 24, 2018, 04:14:13 PM
Gobshites on both sides? Getaway

:o

The last resort of a losing side - "but sure they're as bad!!"..

macdanger2

Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

Syferus

Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

With all due fairness, when is the last time anyone on this board has been convinced of anything by another?

Itchy

Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

With all due fairness, when is the last time anyone on this board has been convinced of anything by another?

Well I was undecided when this all started off and between here, listening to debates and thinking it true myself I went against my base urge to disagree with everything you, Bono and Geldoff say and decided to vote Yes.

Sids implication is that people who vote no are just like arseholes like that McGurk fella. Thats bullshit of course but sure Sid doesnt care as he is just the opposite side of the coin to McGurk

bennydorano

Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:17:45 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on May 24, 2018, 04:14:13 PM
Gobshites on both sides? Getaway

:o

The last resort of a losing side - "but sure they're as bad!!"..

Hopefully people with similar mentalities of the likes of Sid & yourself will not damage the Yes vote.

macdanger2

Quote from: Syferus on May 24, 2018, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 24, 2018, 01:06:47 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.

I never said you were hurting peoples feelings. I suppose what I am saying is that you commit so much time to putting out the Yes message but you do it is such a way as to actually turn people off voting yes. I afraid that is the definition of stupidity.

His 'extremist' views may well have done this on the board but jaysus when u hear any 'no' campaigner on the radio or tv it would immediately make me vote yes.

Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.

With all due fairness, when is the last time anyone on this board has been convinced of anything by another?

I presume sid's approach is the same when he's not on gaaboard. And there are definitely a lot of undecided voters on here and elsewhere

sid waddell

#776
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 24, 2018, 04:21:26 PM


Oh absolutely there are some complete nuts on the No side but Sid brands anyone who even considers voting no as being of that ilk despite nobody on here having those views.

I get the impression sid would rather be "right" than actually convince anyone to agree with him.
Ultimately though you do have to be a complete nut to consider voting No after engaging with the issues.

I have respect for the position that somebody doesn't like abortion, because I don't like it myself. Nobody does.

I have respect for the choice of a rape victim who decides to carry a resulting pregnancy to term, and respect for the choice of any woman who decides to carry a pregnancy involving a fatal foetal abnormality to term.

But I must admit I have no respect whatsoever for the No-supporting position. None. None at all. Because that position is inherently about disrespect and imposition of narrow views on everybody else. It's a position that demands tolerance of intolerance. The old paradox.

I have no respect for that position because by voting No you're supporting:

i) Forcing 12 year old rape victims to give birth against their will
ii) Forcing victims of incest to give birth against their will
iii) Forcing a woman carrying a pregnancy affected by a fatal foetal abnormality to carry that pregnancy to term and act as nothing more than a vessel
iv) Denying pregnant cancer sufferers life-saving treatment
v) Denying basic healthcare such as X-rays to pregnant women or even non-pregnant women until they can prove sufficiently that they are not pregnant
vi) Abandoning women who self-administer abortion in Ireland to a possible nightmarish dilemma beween seeking medical help and risking prison time and not presenting and risking grave health implications
vii) Continuing to stigmatise women who have abortions, thus contributing to mental health problems

In other words, you'd be voting for cruelty, cowardice, delusion and fantasy. It would be a vote for extremism.

To approve of even one of the things I list above would make you a nut. To vote for all seven would be utterly abhorrent.

But there you go. The current constitutional position in this country is abhorrent for women, and it can only be rectified by voting Yes.





whitey

Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning



Syferus

Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning

Please stop.

sid waddell

Quote from: whitey on May 24, 2018, 05:49:08 PM
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.