A5 WTC (New Road from Aughnacloy to Derry)

[LeoMc]

This is a really good analysis of infrastructural apartheid in the North:

https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/03/18/tackling-northern-irelands-infrastructure-apartheid-part-1-the-problem/

Tyrone and Fermanagh have the highest percentages of nationalists because they were tagged on as an afterthought in 1920 .
They also have the worst infrastructure.

I'd to drive down to Fermanagh quite a bit and the road from Ballygawley into Enniskillen wasn't great but somehow got a bit spent on it when that G7 or whatever it was, was on in the Lough Erne Resort. Strange that.

Is the A5 really an Orange/Green issue or are some reading too much into it?

I believe some farmers have objections to the CPO's on their land, but any nationalist farmer I know would be the same.

I think the price attached to the CPO's is part of it. The value attached was around half of that attached to land purchased for the A4. The CPO's for the A4 were pre-crash and for the A5 post-crash.

[seafoid]

I often wondered why  Britain took Tyrone and Fermanagh.  Both counties had  nationalist majorities 100 years ago,  and A lot of the land  in both counties  is quite poor, is it not?  And frig me , some parts of both counties are wild, desolate hellholes. Both counties  were probably more trouble than they were worth , especially when it came  to policing  their borders with the south.  Tyrone had a natural border with Armagh  (blackwater) and with Lough Neagh. Easier patrolled there so it was

I can understand taking  Derry , as Britain would still have  Derry port/Lough foyle and access to the  North Atlantic

I think they needed a minimum size for long term viability and the Taig population was less than 1/3 and everything would always be the same

[seafoid]

https://www.ft.com/content/d40a9f1a-fc56-44dd-b4c4-967a6b107ade
By almost every measure, Northern Ireland is starting from a low base. A research paper published by economists at Trinity College Dublin in 2019 charted decades of inadequate spending on education and infrastructure, a failure to attract inward investment, and a largely one-way flow of talent from the region.
The result has been economic underperformance relative to the UK and the Irish Republic for much of Northern Ireland's first century, despite massive subsidies from the British government and a surge in state jobs in areas such as defence and security.

This is a great map of the border issue in 1920/21. Partition was always going to be a mess.

https://img.rasset.ie/img-epiclive/00172edc-full.jpg

[Chief Whip]

I remember a few years back there was a row of round bales up on the hill with the words "9 in a row" for everyone who drove the road to see.

At the time there were alot of indiscriminate killings of catholics by the loyalists. I don't say nationalists, it didnt matter.  Scary times, imagine being a mother or father when your child went out for the night

[LeoMc]

Heard this clampit on Nolan's show this morning and wanted to reach through the radio and wring his neck!!

https://twitter.com/stephennolan/status/1617870665700319232?s=46&t=fGrYjuK5gKO6-5Rz-dhDZg

He has a point. The only sure way to cut the number of road deaths is to cut the number of vehicle miles travelled, and that means giving people viable alternatives to private cars.

I'd be in favour of part of the A5 project if it meant bypassing Omagh and allowing the current A5 route to go back to its original use as part of the Portadown-Dungannon-Omagh-Derry railway that should never have been closed. Ditto for Strabane.

Public transport works where there is sufficient population density to make regular services viable.
There is some push on Twitter to have the Antrim to Lisburn line reopened to allow a regular (every 15 minutes) each way service between Belfast, Lisburn, Crumlin, Aldergrove, Antrim, Templepatrick Newtonabbey, Belfast (the circle line). That sort of investment, and I know it is in the East, would take many more cars off the road that a twice a day service to Castlederg or Drumquin.

Yes, we need to get more cars of the road and the Great Northern railway would benefit many who live along its route,  but West Tyrone is a rural area where car dependency cannot be easily eradicated.

Omagh is the biggest town in the north without a railway station, and there are far smaller towns with stations (Scarva, anyone?). There's plenty of justification for reopening that line through Dungannon, which in my opinion should be a higher priority than the complete A5.

There used to be a narrow gauge branch line that went to Castlederg from the mainline station at Victoria Bridge. No railway ever went to Drumquin that I'm aware of.

Restoring the railway is only part of the job. The other part is adjusting settlement patterns so that more people cluster around stations instead of having traffic-inducing bungalow blight peppered over the countryside.

The Knockmore line that you speak of is the lowest hanging fruit of all the railway reopenings since the tracks are still there and still in occasional use for certain types of movement. Putting a halt at Aldergrove and connecting it to the rest of the network in a Belfast circle line is a no-brainer. Following that I'd like to see Portadown-Armagh reopened. 10 miles of undisturbed route just sitting there with cuttings, embankments, and half the bridges already in place. It'd prove the concept of reopening a dormant line, and would build popular support for the reopening of the old Derry Road line.

Omagh has a population of around 20,000. There are 4-5 times that number living in the 'hinterlands'. Do we continue to let people die on that road while you spend the next 15-20 years doing proof of concept and building the "into the west" railway. That does not help the people of Drumquin or Dromore or Gortin or Trillick,etc.

A rail line is a  nice to have and would support a % of the population in 10 or 15 years but the road is needed now.

That presupposes that only townies would use the train, but the railway would still be useful to people in the hinterlands. The railway is so useful that people in outlying areas make a point of getting to the stations on it, driving if necessary. It also removes traffic from the road, which frees up capacity for people who absolutely have to drive.

Omagh has an hourly bus service. I have never heard that it is over capacity (50 people / hour) I am not convinced that having a train going via Portadown and taking a similar length of time would convert a significant additional number of people to public transport.

How many people's would travel from Strabane to take the train from Derry to Belfast or how many people from Banbridge would travel the 2 miles to catch the train at Scarva?

[AustinPowers]

I often wondered why  Britain took Tyrone and Fermanagh.  Both counties had  nationalist majorities 100 years ago,  and A lot of the land  in both counties  is quite poor, is it not?  And frig me , some parts of both counties are wild, desolate hellholes. Both counties  were probably more trouble than they were worth , especially when it came  to policing  their borders with the south.  Tyrone had a natural border with Armagh  (blackwater) and with Lough Neagh. Easier patrolled there so it was

I can understand taking  Derry , as Britain would still have  Derry port/Lough foyle and access to the  North Atlantic

I think they needed a minimum size for long term viability and the Taig population was less than 1/3 and everything would always be the same

Yes , as you say ,  6 counties is a minimum size for long term  viability but  that will go out the window  if push come to shove and unionists would settle for less  to maintain their majority.  Thats Derry Fermanagh and Tyrone gone

When you look at the infrastructure map of the north , and unionism's  blatant  disregard for anything west of the bann , maybe they knew  their acre of ground  would have to narrow so they looked after their own corner of the field

[Eamonnca1]

Heard this clampit on Nolan's show this morning and wanted to reach through the radio and wring his neck!!

https://twitter.com/stephennolan/status/1617870665700319232?s=46&t=fGrYjuK5gKO6-5Rz-dhDZg

He has a point. The only sure way to cut the number of road deaths is to cut the number of vehicle miles travelled, and that means giving people viable alternatives to private cars.

I'd be in favour of part of the A5 project if it meant bypassing Omagh and allowing the current A5 route to go back to its original use as part of the Portadown-Dungannon-Omagh-Derry railway that should never have been closed. Ditto for Strabane.

Public transport works where there is sufficient population density to make regular services viable.
There is some push on Twitter to have the Antrim to Lisburn line reopened to allow a regular (every 15 minutes) each way service between Belfast, Lisburn, Crumlin, Aldergrove, Antrim, Templepatrick Newtonabbey, Belfast (the circle line). That sort of investment, and I know it is in the East, would take many more cars off the road that a twice a day service to Castlederg or Drumquin.

Yes, we need to get more cars of the road and the Great Northern railway would benefit many who live along its route,  but West Tyrone is a rural area where car dependency cannot be easily eradicated.

Omagh is the biggest town in the north without a railway station, and there are far smaller towns with stations (Scarva, anyone?). There's plenty of justification for reopening that line through Dungannon, which in my opinion should be a higher priority than the complete A5.

There used to be a narrow gauge branch line that went to Castlederg from the mainline station at Victoria Bridge. No railway ever went to Drumquin that I'm aware of.

Restoring the railway is only part of the job. The other part is adjusting settlement patterns so that more people cluster around stations instead of having traffic-inducing bungalow blight peppered over the countryside.

The Knockmore line that you speak of is the lowest hanging fruit of all the railway reopenings since the tracks are still there and still in occasional use for certain types of movement. Putting a halt at Aldergrove and connecting it to the rest of the network in a Belfast circle line is a no-brainer. Following that I'd like to see Portadown-Armagh reopened. 10 miles of undisturbed route just sitting there with cuttings, embankments, and half the bridges already in place. It'd prove the concept of reopening a dormant line, and would build popular support for the reopening of the old Derry Road line.

Omagh has a population of around 20,000. There are 4-5 times that number living in the 'hinterlands'. Do we continue to let people die on that road while you spend the next 15-20 years doing proof of concept and building the "into the west" railway. That does not help the people of Drumquin or Dromore or Gortin or Trillick,etc.

A rail line is a  nice to have and would support a % of the population in 10 or 15 years but the road is needed now.

That presupposes that only townies would use the train, but the railway would still be useful to people in the hinterlands. The railway is so useful that people in outlying areas make a point of getting to the stations on it, driving if necessary. It also removes traffic from the road, which frees up capacity for people who absolutely have to drive.

Omagh has an hourly bus service. I have never heard that it is over capacity (50 people / hour) I am not convinced that having a train going via Portadown and taking a similar length of time would convert a significant additional number of people to public transport.

How many people's would travel from Strabane to take the train from Derry to Belfast or how many people from Banbridge would travel the 2 miles to catch the train at Scarva?

Buses get stuck in traffic, are slower than driving, and less comfortable than the train. The number of people taking the bus is no indicator how how many people would take the train. The traffic on the roads is a better indicator of demand for travel on a route.

Scarva is an under-utilised station. Translink could do a better job of getting people from Banbridge to use it, but more frequent services from the station would be a prerequisite for that. It seems to be 2 trains in the morning and 3 at night at this point, so it's hardly a viable alternative to the car in its present state.

I grew up 6 miles from Lurgan station and would often use the train for journeys to Belfast or Dublin if I had business within a walkable distance of the station at the other end. The convenience of the train dropping you off in the middle of town in a speedy manner justifies the effort in getting to the station.

[Eamonnca1]

Its the optics of this road that the unionists wont allow.
They cant have it that there would be a main arterial route going straight through the north linking Donegal to Monaghan.
Its the same reason why the A1 will never be upgraded, they have to keep a broken link.

A lad in our geography class in school once asked why the motorway goes to Dungannon instead of towards Dublin which would be more useful. The teacher broke into a Paisley impersonation and said "because I refuse to recognizze the Republic of Ireland!" with the whistling s in recognise. He said they were more interested in internal connections in the north than connections with the south. And he was right.

[Eamonnca1]

You used to be able to take the train to Bundoran, Enniskillen, Omagh, Strabane, Dungannon, Pomeroy, Cookstown, Stewartstown, Coalisland, Magherafelt, Banbridge, Armagh, Monaghan, Clones, Newcastle, Comber, all over the place. County Donegal also had a comprehensive narrow gauge network covering more miles than Translink manages today. People should be outraged about what was taken from them. https://youtu.be/rUT_cpamUHU

[armaghniac]

You used to be able to take the train to Bundoran, Enniskillen, Omagh, Strabane, Dungannon, Pomeroy, Cookstown, Stewartstown, Coalisland, Magherafelt, Banbridge, Armagh, Monaghan, Clones, Newcastle, Comber, all over the place. County Donegal also had a comprehensive narrow gauge network covering more miles than Translink manages today. People should be outraged about what was taken from them. https://youtu.be/rUT_cpamUHU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29gwdZrSeWU

[seafoid]

I often wondered why  Britain took Tyrone and Fermanagh.  Both counties had  nationalist majorities 100 years ago,  and A lot of the land  in both counties  is quite poor, is it not?  And frig me , some parts of both counties are wild, desolate hellholes. Both counties  were probably more trouble than they were worth , especially when it came  to policing  their borders with the south.  Tyrone had a natural border with Armagh  (blackwater) and with Lough Neagh. Easier patrolled there so it was

I can understand taking  Derry , as Britain would still have  Derry port/Lough foyle and access to the  North Atlantic

I think they needed a minimum size for long term viability and the Taig population was less than 1/3 and everything would always be the same

Yes , as you say ,  6 counties is a minimum size for long term  viability but  that will go out the window  if push come to shove and unionists would settle for less  to maintain their majority.  Thats Derry Fermanagh and Tyrone gone

When you look at the infrastructure map of the north , and unionism's  blatant  disregard for anything west of the bann , maybe they knew  their acre of ground  would have to narrow so they looked after their own corner of the field

They had no economic foresight so I can't see a slimmed down unit flying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY2FgX6dhCc&t=78s

[Armagh18]

Heard this clampit on Nolan's show this morning and wanted to reach through the radio and wring his neck!!

https://twitter.com/stephennolan/status/1617870665700319232?s=46&t=fGrYjuK5gKO6-5Rz-dhDZg

He has a point. The only sure way to cut the number of road deaths is to cut the number of vehicle miles travelled, and that means giving people viable alternatives to private cars.

I'd be in favour of part of the A5 project if it meant bypassing Omagh and allowing the current A5 route to go back to its original use as part of the Portadown-Dungannon-Omagh-Derry railway that should never have been closed. Ditto for Strabane.

Public transport works where there is sufficient population density to make regular services viable.
There is some push on Twitter to have the Antrim to Lisburn line reopened to allow a regular (every 15 minutes) each way service between Belfast, Lisburn, Crumlin, Aldergrove, Antrim, Templepatrick Newtonabbey, Belfast (the circle line). That sort of investment, and I know it is in the East, would take many more cars off the road that a twice a day service to Castlederg or Drumquin.

Yes, we need to get more cars of the road and the Great Northern railway would benefit many who live along its route,  but West Tyrone is a rural area where car dependency cannot be easily eradicated.

Omagh is the biggest town in the north without a railway station, and there are far smaller towns with stations (Scarva, anyone?). There's plenty of justification for reopening that line through Dungannon, which in my opinion should be a higher priority than the complete A5.

There used to be a narrow gauge branch line that went to Castlederg from the mainline station at Victoria Bridge. No railway ever went to Drumquin that I'm aware of.

Restoring the railway is only part of the job. The other part is adjusting settlement patterns so that more people cluster around stations instead of having traffic-inducing bungalow blight peppered over the countryside.

The Knockmore line that you speak of is the lowest hanging fruit of all the railway reopenings since the tracks are still there and still in occasional use for certain types of movement. Putting a halt at Aldergrove and connecting it to the rest of the network in a Belfast circle line is a no-brainer. Following that I'd like to see Portadown-Armagh reopened. 10 miles of undisturbed route just sitting there with cuttings, embankments, and half the bridges already in place. It'd prove the concept of reopening a dormant line, and would build popular support for the reopening of the old Derry Road line.

Omagh has a population of around 20,000. There are 4-5 times that number living in the 'hinterlands'. Do we continue to let people die on that road while you spend the next 15-20 years doing proof of concept and building the "into the west" railway. That does not help the people of Drumquin or Dromore or Gortin or Trillick,etc.

A rail line is a  nice to have and would support a % of the population in 10 or 15 years but the road is needed now.

That presupposes that only townies would use the train, but the railway would still be useful to people in the hinterlands. The railway is so useful that people in outlying areas make a point of getting to the stations on it, driving if necessary. It also removes traffic from the road, which frees up capacity for people who absolutely have to drive.

Omagh has an hourly bus service. I have never heard that it is over capacity (50 people / hour) I am not convinced that having a train going via Portadown and taking a similar length of time would convert a significant additional number of people to public transport.

How many people's would travel from Strabane to take the train from Derry to Belfast or how many people from Banbridge would travel the 2 miles to catch the train at Scarva?

Buses get stuck in traffic, are slower than driving, and less comfortable than the train. The number of people taking the bus is no indicator how how many people would take the train. The traffic on the roads is a better indicator of demand for travel on a route.

Scarva is an under-utilised station. Translink could do a better job of getting people from Banbridge to use it, but more frequent services from the station would be a prerequisite for that. It seems to be 2 trains in the morning and 3 at night at this point, so it's hardly a viable alternative to the car in its present state.

I grew up 6 miles from Lurgan station and would often use the train for journeys to Belfast or Dublin if I had business within a walkable distance of the station at the other end. The convenience of the train dropping you off in the middle of town in a speedy manner justifies the effort in getting to the station.

Yeah personally I would get the train if possible to go to Belfast/Dublin but i would never get a bus

[general_lee]

Heard this clampit on Nolan's show this morning and wanted to reach through the radio and wring his neck!!

https://twitter.com/stephennolan/status/1617870665700319232?s=46&t=fGrYjuK5gKO6-5Rz-dhDZg

He has a point. The only sure way to cut the number of road deaths is to cut the number of vehicle miles travelled, and that means giving people viable alternatives to private cars.

I'd be in favour of part of the A5 project if it meant bypassing Omagh and allowing the current A5 route to go back to its original use as part of the Portadown-Dungannon-Omagh-Derry railway that should never have been closed. Ditto for Strabane.

Public transport works where there is sufficient population density to make regular services viable.
There is some push on Twitter to have the Antrim to Lisburn line reopened to allow a regular (every 15 minutes) each way service between Belfast, Lisburn, Crumlin, Aldergrove, Antrim, Templepatrick Newtonabbey, Belfast (the circle line). That sort of investment, and I know it is in the East, would take many more cars off the road that a twice a day service to Castlederg or Drumquin.

Yes, we need to get more cars of the road and the Great Northern railway would benefit many who live along its route,  but West Tyrone is a rural area where car dependency cannot be easily eradicated.

Omagh is the biggest town in the north without a railway station, and there are far smaller towns with stations (Scarva, anyone?). There's plenty of justification for reopening that line through Dungannon, which in my opinion should be a higher priority than the complete A5.

There used to be a narrow gauge branch line that went to Castlederg from the mainline station at Victoria Bridge. No railway ever went to Drumquin that I'm aware of.

Restoring the railway is only part of the job. The other part is adjusting settlement patterns so that more people cluster around stations instead of having traffic-inducing bungalow blight peppered over the countryside.

The Knockmore line that you speak of is the lowest hanging fruit of all the railway reopenings since the tracks are still there and still in occasional use for certain types of movement. Putting a halt at Aldergrove and connecting it to the rest of the network in a Belfast circle line is a no-brainer. Following that I'd like to see Portadown-Armagh reopened. 10 miles of undisturbed route just sitting there with cuttings, embankments, and half the bridges already in place. It'd prove the concept of reopening a dormant line, and would build popular support for the reopening of the old Derry Road line.

Omagh has a population of around 20,000. There are 4-5 times that number living in the 'hinterlands'. Do we continue to let people die on that road while you spend the next 15-20 years doing proof of concept and building the "into the west" railway. That does not help the people of Drumquin or Dromore or Gortin or Trillick,etc.

A rail line is a  nice to have and would support a % of the population in 10 or 15 years but the road is needed now.

That presupposes that only townies would use the train, but the railway would still be useful to people in the hinterlands. The railway is so useful that people in outlying areas make a point of getting to the stations on it, driving if necessary. It also removes traffic from the road, which frees up capacity for people who absolutely have to drive.

Omagh has an hourly bus service. I have never heard that it is over capacity (50 people / hour) I am not convinced that having a train going via Portadown and taking a similar length of time would convert a significant additional number of people to public transport.

How many people's would travel from Strabane to take the train from Derry to Belfast or how many people from Banbridge would travel the 2 miles to catch the train at Scarva?

Build it and they will come. Hardly anyone uses the hourly train from Lurgan to Belfast after 10am but beforehand the train is rammed, likewise at the other end from 4pm onwards (don't think the bus is) The popularity of the reinvigorated Derry line is surely proof that the demand will be met - it's regularly rammed as well.

Scarva is hardly a good example. It's a barely used halt and it's probably only still open because of the sham fight every July, I'm sure if a purpose built park n ride was built along with more regular commuter services you'd soon see Banbridge people use it.

[Walter Cronc]

Another death today? An utter disgrace!

[trailer]

Another death today? An utter disgrace!

Rumours at this but heard there are possibly 3 deaths.
Nothing confirmed at this point. Just desperate news.
An utter disgrace.