Has the intercounty system in football told us all it’s ever going to tell us?

[five points]

But the opening premise that the club game is a disaster, nobody cares about the club player, etc., in my opinion and from my perspective, is just not correct.     

Nail on head.

[thewobbler]

I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).

But here's why a split season is needed:

1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.

2. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin) and they will drop full series of league and championship fixtures immediately after county games. So you will have the situation where a county player will be asked to line out for his club just a couple of days after a county championship match. Player welfare just isn't considered.

3. While discussing player welfare, my personal observations is that county players outwardly want to play club football at all times, but inwardly, do not need the distraction when the county championship is heating up. They can't say this out loud, but it's easy read from body language. Yet here have been for decades, forcing them to jump between county suit and club suit, week at a time and now month at a time.

Almost all of the above is primarily the fault of the clubs; we have the only sports in the world where players are browbeaten to continue playing at all potential lower standards, when a higher standard is available to them. And it's the clubs that drive this. Which is why I couldn't support the CPA, who seemed to be formed to militantly ram home that clubs need county players, rather than to find a balance.

But at the same time, a lack of rational thinking about county championship timings has helped create this militant beast.

1. Why can't the first round of the provincials all be played on the same day?

2. Why can't the first round of the AI qualifiers all be played on the same day, one week after no.1?

3. Why can't second round of provincials be played on the same day as no.2?

4. And why can't round 2 of the AI qualifiers take place one week after no.3?

At first glance this just doesn't make any sense. Dragging county seasons out by unnecessary months, when players could be playing club instead. 16 counties could finish their season within 3 weeks, and clubs would be happy. So it seems like no sense.

But the reason for it happening like this is inherently simple: so that the AI final can be played in September. And if there's only 16 teams left half way through May, nobody can find a reason to prolong the competition to September.

Hence moving the AI final date is the key to all this.

Do that, and split seasons make sense.

And most of the club v county problems are eliminated in one go.

[Farrandeelin]

Mayo in general have a nice balance between club and county players too might I add. There's the championships, which all players are available for. Eleven league games (five or six which are starred) and competitions that are totally without county players. Initially I was against the starred games, but needs must and it enables more players get game time too. If Mayo get knocked out early, then the starred league games become irrelevant.

[Blowitupref]

Many people on here actually believe the myth that the reason Dublin punch well below their weight at minor level (despite all the development officers training the primary school children    )and then usually come good at U20 level, is something to do with money. We send them off to this supreme coaching paradise where we throw loads of money at them, they have to do no work or no study and they become professional gaelic footballers. In reality, the reason they improve is because they get immersed in the best club game in the country.

Minor is used as a development grade, great if you win trophies not the end of the world if you don't. U20 as U21 was before it is the grade whereby Dublin instill that winning mentality into their players. The physicality, strength and conditioning of the players compared to when they were minors county players is like chalk and cheese.

[sid waddell]

And when do the All-Ireland Club Finals happen under this plan, Wobbler?

You see, there's a little thing called money

You can poo poo it all you like, but it makes the world go round, and it makes the GAA go round

Downsizing the inter-county championships in terms of importance and visibility, shoehorning them into the first half of the year, as you want, will result in a significant decrease in gate receipts

And that hits everybody

This is the basic fact you fail to understand

You can be as "condescending" as you like, but if you condescend from a position of refusal to face up to basic truths - as is the case with you, that's just being a blowhard

The problem with dividing people into categories in order to fight a culture war, as you so openly do, is that the GAA depends on the very people you so love to deride to bring in the money for clubs and development, for the GAA as a whole

Also, none of your arguments are about participation, they're about senior club championship and senior club championship only

And what's more, there are no flesh on the bones of your plan - only rhetoric

And still, you trot out the 98% number, which is nowhere near correct

[sid waddell]

I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).

But here's why a split season is needed:

1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.

So, because some counties cant get their house in order as regards club fixtures, the showpiece competitions of the GAA - the inter-county championships, are the ones which should suffer as a result?

Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?

If Dublin can get their house in order in terms of fixtures, anybody can

[sid waddell]

Some people have a quibble that part of the round robin series of the Dublin club championship takes place in April and the rest in September. But the clubs have a choice - full knockout and start in September. Or have a round robin element with more games, but means we need to get a couple of games in in April. Maybe not ideal, but not huge deal either.

Mid April is when things really start firming up

It is indeed no big deal to fit in two rounds of club championship each in hurling and football between the league and championship

Neither should it be a big deal to fit in a round or two of club championship after the provincial quarter-finals on designated dates

Same after the provincial championships have concluded

That takes you up to five club championship match days on designated dates - in my sample plan, the Dublin SFC would go ahead on April 18th, May 2nd, June 6th, June 13th and July 28th

Depending on format, that means you arrive at either a last eight or a last four by then

Say if the Dublin SFC was revamped to 24 teams instead of 16 - with four groups of six - like in the Galway Hurling Championship, you could use all the all the five available dates for round robin fixtures to whittle it down to eight teams by July 28th

If it stayed at sixteen teams, you could use four of the five available matchdays to whittle it down the last four by July 28

Then you play off the last four or last eight from September 26th on

What is a ludicrous situation is waiting around for five months to play a third round robin game when you're already out, as currently exists

[thewobbler]

I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).

But here's why a split season is needed:

1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.

So, because some counties cant get their house in order as regards club fixtures, the showpiece competitions of the GAA - the inter-county championships, are the ones which should suffer as a result?

Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?

If Dublin can get their house in order in terms of fixtures, anybody can

No Sid, not quite.

There has been a growing discord between club and county scenes, since the back door.

This is largely fuelled by clubs. But does this mean it should be ignored?

And in more recent times it is clearly fuelled too by county players.  Think of subs for teams like Kildare, Armagh, Roscommon, Cork, who invest entire summers without game time but know they won't get past a semi final. Think of any player from that 50% of counties who have absolutely no chance of winning an AI and their goal is a provincial final. But once knocked out of their province, they're dragged in two for up to a month between a club that might be going somewhere, and a county that isn't. Should we just ignore these players?

[sid waddell]

I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).

But here's why a split season is needed:

1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.

So, because some counties cant get their house in order as regards club fixtures, the showpiece competitions of the GAA - the inter-county championships, are the ones which should suffer as a result?

Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?

If Dublin can get their house in order in terms of fixtures, anybody can

No Sid, not quite.

There has been a growing discord between club and county scenes, since the back door.

This is largely fuelled by clubs. But does this mean it should be ignored?

And in more recent times it is clearly fuelled too by county players.  Think of subs for teams like Kildare, Armagh, Roscommon, Cork, who invest entire summers without game time but know they won't get past a semi final. Think of any player from that 50% of counties who have absolutely no chance of winning an AI and their goal is a provincial final. But once knocked out of their province, they're dragged in two for up to a month between a club that might be going somewhere, and a county that isn't. Should we just ignore these players?

Sorry, if Dublin can get their fixtures in order, anybody can

I'm the only poster here who has spelled out concrete dates on a calendar for when club championship action would take place

Where's your calendar?

Like, actual dates, week to week, each competition, spelling out exactly what will happen and when

I've run the numbers on your plan and it necessitates the All-Ireland club finals running up to December 12th at the earliest

You claimed everything would be finished by the start of November

[thewobbler]

I'm the only poster here who has spelled out concrete dates on a calendar for when club championship action would take place

Lol at you for taking pride in completing an exercise a teacher might give to a 10 year old.

—-

Jan-Mar:
1. Intercounty National Leagues.
2. No club fixtures.

April-Jun:
1. Intercouhty championship.
2. Club leagues begins whenever suits, without county players. County players return as their team is knocked out (which would be 24 counties by mid-May).

Jul: Club leagues. Championship not permitted until late in month, to allow AI finalists a few weeks celebration/bedding back in.

Aug-Sep: Club county championships

Oct: Club provincial championships

Nov: Club AI championships

——-

None of this is my idea. It's all in docs released by the GAA in recent months.

And it's nowhere near as complicated to read as a 40 year old doing primary school problem solving.

[sid waddell]

Another thing - if 16 teams are out of the inter-county championship by the end of April, 24 by the first weekend in May, why on earth would you bother playing county football at all?

Given that all it would ever be is a toil in the muck and the rain of winter, followed by a quick in and out in the Spring?

[sid waddell]

I'm the only poster here who has spelled out concrete dates on a calendar for when club championship action would take place

Lol at you for taking pride in completing an exercise a teacher might give to a 10 year old.

—-

Jan-Mar:
1. Intercounty National Leagues.
2. No club fixtures.

April-Jun:
1. Intercouhty championship.
2. Club leagues begins whenever suits, without county players. County players return as their team is knocked out (which would be 24 counties by mid-May).

Jul: Club leagues. Championship not permitted until late in month, to allow AI finalists a few weeks celebration/bedding back in.

Aug-Sep: Club county championships

Oct: Club provincial championships

Nov: Club AI championships

——-

None of this is my idea. It's all in docs released by the GAA in recent months.

And it's nowhere near as complicated to read as a 40 year old doing primary school problem solving.

These are not concrete dates

Calling me a 10 year old now, you really don't take kindly at all to being challenged, do you

[thewobbler]

Another thing - if 16 teams are out of the inter-county championship by the end of April, 24 by the first weekend in May, why on earth would you bother playing county football at all?

Given that all it would ever be is a toil in the muck and the rain of winter, followed by a quick in and out in the Spring?

Because you'll have been able to play 7-9 league games and a couple of championship matches, in sequence, without interruption. And you still get to play football all summer.

[sid waddell]

Another thing - if 16 teams are out of the inter-county championship by the end of April, 24 by the first weekend in May, why on earth would you bother playing county football at all?

Given that all it would ever be is a toil in the muck and the rain of winter, followed by a quick in and out in the Spring?

Because you'll have been able to play 7-9 league games and a couple of championship matches, in sequence, without interruption. And you still get to play football all summer.

That's not an answer to the question - in fact it's another reason for players not to play county football

24 county teams would be out by the start of May

That means inter-county football becomes overwhelmingly a winter pursuit and not a summer one

The reason the back door was brought in was because 16 teams got one match in hard ground - they wanted more

Why would you bother if you get 0?

And inter-county managers are not going to demand any less of players - if they're out by mid-April they will demand them to show up for training from at least September onwards

None of this is thought through

It's pure Brexit thinking

[thewobbler]

It's altogether really quite strange Sid then, given all of your theories on why county players can only become disaffected by the split season move, that the GPA are fundamentally behind all of this happening. That's the same GPA who as a principle, give not one f**k about anything other than county players.

—-

County players getting 0, 1 or 10 games in summertime isn't important in the slightest and you're really clutching at straws now.

The reasons why it's important to play club football in summer is

1. Because the sheer volume of fixtures requires longer evenings and firmer ground.

2. Because every single county player also plays club football, which means that every footballer in Ireland gets to play summer football.


The reason why it's important to play county football in summer is:

1. Sid likes to watch Dublin in Croke Park on balmy summer evenings.