Has the intercounty system in football told us all it’s ever going to tell us?

[thewobbler]

There are NOT more rural dwellers than ever before.
Roscommon had 250,000 people in 1841 we now have 65,000.
Most rural clubs here have to amalgamate to field underage teams.
Not sure what you're arguing now?
Do you want an end to televised County games or do you want Inter County abolished?
Do you want clubs to be community organisations instead of fostering Gaelic games?
Why can't we have all 3 complementing each other?

Have a look at https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ireland/rural-population

—-

If you're not sure what I'm arguing, then you should try reading the past 3 pages of this thread,  then instead of embellishing my words and lampooning me for things I've not discussed, we might have a rational discussion.

Putting the needs of 98% of players above the needs of 2% is the single most important step in ensuring that Gaelic Games remains at the heart of communities across Ireland.

That's all.

[Rossfan]

As I've Sid on ignore I won't be reading back.
You might give some practical examples of what you mean by putting needs of 98% above needs of 2%?
What will that do for all those in communities in Derry City, West Belfast, Sligo town or Athlone town who ignore or hate the "Gah"?

[sid waddell]

There are NOT more rural dwellers than ever before.
Roscommon had 250,000 people in 1841 we now have 65,000.
Most rural clubs here have to amalgamate to field underage teams.
Not sure what you're arguing now?
Do you want an end to televised County games or do you want Inter County abolished?
Do you want clubs to be community organisations instead of fostering Gaelic games?
Why can't we have all 3 complementing each other?

Also, there is nothing in the senior club scene, or the top team in each club whichever grade they are at, that is inherently more of a genuine community driver than the senior inter-county scene

Senior club teams are their own singular entities driven by the prospect of success - not participation

But the strength of a club in terms of community is in participation - across grades and age levels - not the top team in each club

If you are looking at clubs as a real community driver, it's far more important to field a second team or a third team or a fourth team, if you can do that

Outside of the top adult team in each club, the senior inter county scene and the club and underage scenes have no connection to each other - they do not have players common to both

Wobbler is looking at this purely through the lens of senior club - not clubs as community organisations - and that is entirely the wrong lens to look at things through

Slaughtneil is commonly cited as an example of a rural club who are doing things the right way in terms of real community involvement - and that has filtered up to senior club level with them - but it seems to me that Derry as a GAA county has fallen off the map because as a county they have retreated into the mindset of patented true Gaelism, cliqueishess and the concept of the GAA being purely a faction fight between rural parishes with nothing beyond that

There are no heroes in Derry now and there hasn't been since Paddy Bradley, and Derry city is as far away in GAA terms as it ever was

[Angelo]

Could we not leave starting the intercounty season until the summer? June to the end of Oct should be enough to run off the league and Championship.

Club campaigns should be well able to ran off between from Jan to May.

[thewobbler]

Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.

Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?


Unbelievable.

[Angelo]

Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.

Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?


Unbelievable.

You'll never be happy.

You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.

Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.

This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.

Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.

[sid waddell]

Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.

Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?


Unbelievable.

Matches involving the top adult team in each club are not 98% of fixtures, or anywhere remotely near it

[thewobbler]

98% of ADULT fixtures then Sid.

I can't wait for the marketing campaign to back this one.

"Hey you, sort of interested teenager. Stick at Gaelic Games and W hen you're an adult, if you get really good at it and are prepared to live a monkish existence, we will even let you play on summer pitches. That's a good lad."

[6th sam]

Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.

Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?


Unbelievable.

You'll never be happy.

You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.

Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.

This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.

Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.

Wobbler has earned serious kudos on this board , for many years of insightful challenging points around GAA . I don't always agree with everything he says, but Over the years many of his views have become widely accepted. He tends to be ahead of his time in terms of his analysis .
I agree that we must cement what makes the GAA punch well above its weight: and for me that's 2 Main things:
1.identity ( family , community, county , country )
2. Quality of the product: excellent team sports to match any other

As far as I'm concerned there are 3 basic tiers in terms of Intercounty competition : senior, intermediate, junior. This system works really well at club level where clubs find their level and must invest to step up. It would be considered absolutely ridiculous to expect a junior club with limited resources to challenge a top senior club, but essentially that's the premise the current Intercounty championship works. So a county like Waterford for example , puts resource into training a team for Munster SFC each year and literally never wins , yet Groundhog Day appears again next May.
Under the current system in reality, only the following counties have any chance of winning the SFC: Dublin Kerry mayo Galway Donegal Tyrone Cork. The only exception to these counties in getting to the AIF in nearly 2 decades was Down 2010. It's a bit of an exaggeration , but everybody outside that top 7 is basically making up the numbers in a phoney war. The resources wasted in no-hope counties in this phoney war makes no sense to me. I argued on this discussion board many years ago that there should be compacted and separate Intercounty season, thankfully this split season is now coming to fruition. Playing Intercounty early makes perfect sense to me. AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year. Club football competitions can proceed without county players in this block, but county players are back with their clubs for the summer. If this year taught us anything in the GAA, it's that the club game with full availability of players is a brilliant community event, long may this continue. Angelo, you sometimes make good points, but you lose credibility when you do things like deride Wobbler about complaining about county players not playing for their club . That attitude doesn't make sense to any member of the GAA I know. Are you an actual club member ?

[Rossfan]

Serious and good post (as usual) by Sam.
You're getting your wish with the split season thing anyway.
Whatever about 2021 I think it will settle into County primarily  till mid July and Club only from there.
I too would like to see 3 Inter County football AIs -
Premier Senior
Senior A
Senior B
With promotion/relegation. I'd keep the Provincials as stand alone competitions with every County entering.

[Angelo]

Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.

Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?


Unbelievable.

You'll never be happy.

You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.

Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.

This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.

Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.

Wobbler has earned serious kudos on this board , for many years of insightful challenging points around GAA . I don't always agree with everything he says, but Over the years many of his views have become widely accepted. He tends to be ahead of his time in terms of his analysis .
I agree that we must cement what makes the GAA punch well above its weight: and for me that's 2 Main things:
1.identity ( family , community, county , country )
2. Quality of the product: excellent team sports to match any other

As far as I'm concerned there are 3 basic tiers in terms of Intercounty competition : senior, intermediate, junior. This system works really well at club level where clubs find their level and must invest to step up. It would be considered absolutely ridiculous to expect a junior club with limited resources to challenge a top senior club, but essentially that's the premise the current Intercounty championship works. So a county like Waterford for example , puts resource into training a team for Munster SFC each year and literally never wins , yet Groundhog Day appears again next May.
Under the current system in reality, only the following counties have any chance of winning the SFC: Dublin Kerry mayo Galway Donegal Tyrone Cork. The only exception to these counties in getting to the AIF in nearly 2 decades was Down 2010. It's a bit of an exaggeration , but everybody outside that top 7 is basically making up the numbers in a phoney war. The resources wasted in no-hope counties in this phoney war makes no sense to me. I argued on this discussion board many years ago that there should be compacted and separate Intercounty season, thankfully this split season is now coming to fruition. Playing Intercounty early makes perfect sense to me. AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year. Club football competitions can proceed without county players in this block, but county players are back with their clubs for the summer. If this year taught us anything in the GAA, it's that the club game with full availability of players is a brilliant community event, long may this continue. Angelo, you sometimes make good points, but you lose credibility when you do things like deride Wobbler about complaining about county players not playing for their club . That attitude doesn't make sense to any member of the GAA I know. Are you an actual club member ?

What's the alternative Einstein?

These are unprecedented circumstances.

Clubs play a 8-12 month season as we are generally and the gripe most people have with clubs is being deprived of their county players. So in these unprecedented circumstances we have an arrangement put forward that allows the club and county calendar to be split in a way that provides a decent compromise where club and county can be facilitated. It allows club players to have access to their county men for the duration of the club game. And it seems bitching about the weather it is played in seems to be the main gripe.

Have you anything constructive to add or are you just going to offer tiring criticisms?

[6th sam]

Serious and good post (as usual) by Sam.
You're getting your wish with the split season thing anyway.
Whatever about 2021 I think it will settle into County primarily  till mid July and Club only from there.
I too would like to see 3 Inter County football AIs -
Premier Senior
Senior A
Senior B
With promotion/relegation. I'd keep the Provincials as stand alone competitions with every County entering.

Think that's a workable solution Ross

[6th sam]

Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.

Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?


Unbelievable.

You'll never be happy.

You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.

Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.

This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.

Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.

Wobbler has earned serious kudos on this board , for many years of insightful challenging points around GAA . I don't always agree with everything he says, but Over the years many of his views have become widely accepted. He tends to be ahead of his time in terms of his analysis .
I agree that we must cement what makes the GAA punch well above its weight: and for me that's 2 Main things:
1.identity ( family , community, county , country )
2. Quality of the product: excellent team sports to match any other

As far as I'm concerned there are 3 basic tiers in terms of Intercounty competition : senior, intermediate, junior. This system works really well at club level where clubs find their level and must invest to step up. It would be considered absolutely ridiculous to expect a junior club with limited resources to challenge a top senior club, but essentially that's the premise the current Intercounty championship works. So a county like Waterford for example , puts resource into training a team for Munster SFC each year and literally never wins , yet Groundhog Day appears again next May.
Under the current system in reality, only the following counties have any chance of winning the SFC: Dublin Kerry mayo Galway Donegal Tyrone Cork. The only exception to these counties in getting to the AIF in nearly 2 decades was Down 2010. It's a bit of an exaggeration , but everybody outside that top 7 is basically making up the numbers in a phoney war. The resources wasted in no-hope counties in this phoney war makes no sense to me. I argued on this discussion board many years ago that there should be compacted and separate Intercounty season, thankfully this split season is now coming to fruition. Playing Intercounty early makes perfect sense to me. AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year. Club football competitions can proceed without county players in this block, but county players are back with their clubs for the summer. If this year taught us anything in the GAA, it's that the club game with full availability of players is a brilliant community event, long may this continue. Angelo, you sometimes make good points, but you lose credibility when you do things like deride Wobbler about complaining about county players not playing for their club . That attitude doesn't make sense to any member of the GAA I know. Are you an actual club member ?

What's the alternative Einstein?

These are unprecedented circumstances.

Clubs play a 8-12 month season as we are generally and the gripe most people have with clubs is being deprived of their county players. So in these unprecedented circumstances we have an arrangement put forward that allows the club and county calendar to be split in a way that provides a decent compromise where club and county can be facilitated. It allows club players to have access to their county men for the duration of the club game. And it seems bitching about the weather it is played in seems to be the main gripe.

Have you anything constructive to add or are you just going to offer tiring criticisms?

😂doesn't take much to engender aggression from you Angelo. Read my lips🤦🏻‍♂️ . I'm offering a solution to cement Intercounty and club for all. We'll not be far away from that in the new arrangements, but a further enhancement by giving every county in the country competitive football at their own level and a chance to progress. Counties Throwing good money after bad, on preparing for meaningless championship fixtures makes no sense to me. A tiered system allows the county season to be run off quicker and is likely to enhance the revenue  generated from a compacted county season . Like club football if you want to upgrade, you work hard you invest and the cream comes to the top.
I think where the county game can learn from
The club game, is that you must recognise and market all tiers. A club JFC victory is massive for a club with big crowds relatively speaking , county boards promote these completions and they've genuine kudos . GAA centrally put nowhere near enough effort promoting lower tiers eg Christy Ring.
Imagine the pride in léitrim developing a team to win a senior B title and getting a crack at Senior A the following year. It engenders genuine and realistic incentives to all counties. And "lesser" counties can cut their cloth for a compacted season , depending on their ambitions.
Not club v county, it should be club + county. Great times ahead

[sid waddell]

98% of ADULT fixtures then Sid.

I can't wait for the marketing campaign to back this one.

"Hey you, sort of interested teenager. Stick at Gaelic Games and W hen you're an adult, if you get really good at it and are prepared to live a monkish existence, we will even let you play on summer pitches. That's a good lad."

Not 98% of adult fixtures

Or anywhere near it

For somebody who is claiming to speak for club players you have an incredibly dismissive attitude towards many of them

[6th sam]

98% of ADULT fixtures then Sid.

I can't wait for the marketing campaign to back this one.

"Hey you, sort of interested teenager. Stick at Gaelic Games and W hen you're an adult, if you get really good at it and are prepared to live a monkish existence, we will even let you play on summer pitches. That's a good lad."

Not 98% of adult fixtures

Or anywhere near it

For somebody who is claiming to speak for club players you have an incredibly dismissive attitude towards many of them

I'll not speak for wobbler, though I imagine at least 98% of fixture are club fixtures, in my experience ~75% of these will be club senior teams. However even reserve fixtures are indirectly  affected by Intercounty football at senior u20 and junior levels. Freeing up summer /early autumn for clubs, means  clubs at all levels and grades will have more football in the summer . Notably many clubs have only 1 pitch and less maintenance resources  compared to county pitches, so this will be another gain in terms of pitch care across the board.
Going thru a compact AI winning campaign in spring/early summer would actually be more attractive as we've the whole summer to look forward to with loads of club games and importantly players club and county actually get an off season. It's win/win. The opportunity should also be taken to set county budgetary restrictions, and share sponsorship more evenly ( cf Dublin's current unfair advantages which are threatening to destroy the county game).