Has the intercounty system in football told us all it’s ever going to tell us?

Started by caprea, February 13, 2020, 05:38:52 AM

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sid waddell

So, if the All-Ireland football final is on June 27th, work back

Two weeks back to the All-Ireland semi-finals on June 13th

Super 8s Round 3 on June 6th

A gap week will be necessary, so two weeks back to May 23rd for Super 8 Round 2

May 16th is Super 8 Round 1

May 9th sees Qualifiers Round 4
Provincial finals on May 2nd along with Qualifying Round 3
Provincial Semi-finals on April 25th, actually no - they have to go back to April 18th because beaten provincial semi-finalists come in at qualifying Round 2, which would be April 18th
Provincial Quarter-Finals would be pushed back to April 4th to accommodate Qualifiers Round 1 on April 11th
Provincial Prelims on March 28th

NFL final on March 21st, no wait, a gap week is required between league and championship, so back to March 14th for the NFL final

So when do you start the NFL, January 10th? Because, you know, postponements

But what abut the McKenna Cup? Right back into the pre-Christmas period

So if you're, say, Tyrone, you could have:
Four McKenna Cup games before Christmas
McKenna Cup Final January 3rd
NFL games:
January 10
January 17
January 24
February 7
February 14
February 21
February 28

You qualify for the league final, March 14th

You're in the Ulster preliminary round, March 28th
You win that, but lose to Donegal in the quarter-final on April 4th
Into the qualifiers, Round 1 on April 11th
Round 2 on April 18th
Round 3 on May 2nd
Round 4 on May 9th
Super 8s Round 1 on May 16th
Super 8s Round 2 on May 23rd, you're now playing seven weeks out of eight, it's your 20th game since mid-December, you've had a week off at Christmas and three free weekends since then, and the vast majority of the football you've played has been in the muck and the shit

And all while being expected to hold down a job

There are Premier League clubs who play less football than that

Player welfare how are ya











sid waddell

Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 05:17:52 PM
It's altogether really quite strange Sid then, given all of your theories on why county players can only become disaffected by the split season move, that the GPA are fundamentally behind all of this happening. That's the same GPA who as a principle, give not one f**k about anything other than county players.

—-

County players getting 0, 1 or 10 games in summertime isn't important in the slightest and you're really clutching at straws now.

The reasons why it's important to play club football in summer is

1. Because the sheer volume of fixtures requires longer evenings and firmer ground.

2. Because every single county player also plays club football, which means that every footballer in Ireland gets to play summer football.


The reason why it's important to play county football in summer is:

1. Sid likes to watch Dublin in Croke Park on balmy summer evenings.
The vast majority of senior club matches are unaffected by the timing of the inter-county championship

At least if your county board is any way competent

Sid does indeed like to watch Dublin playing in Croke Park on balmy summer evenings - and elsewhere if the fixture makers would take Dublin out of Croke Park a bit more

I also like going to Castlebar, and Thurles, and Killarney on weekends when Dublin are not playing

And so do a lot of other people - but if you want to push those people away from GAA matches, don't complain when the money is not shared around

These matches really matter to the GAA in terms of gate receipts

Somebody has to pay the bills

That's the real world


sid waddell

So, if you're expected to play 10 or even 11 matches between March 28th and June 27th - in front of attendances which have reduced considerably because of i) the more frequent nature of the matches, ii) because the weather in April and May is generally cooler and windier, and iii) because there are more counter attractions in terms of television sport and indeed other GAA fixtures if more are happening on the same weekend because the championship is more condensed...

What happens then to the NFL, pushed even further back into January than it already is?

It becomes a joke competition, with scrap teams and reduced attendances

And you can forget any half decent attendances at pre-Christmas McKenna Cup matches

But hey, maybe increased attendances at club league matches might make up for this

Or not, as the case may be


sid waddell

Dublin Football League Division 1 results 2019

Notice anything about the dates of these matches?

Answer for those too slow to get it: they were not affected by the timing of the inter-county championship

https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions/results/136273

Here's the Dublin Hurling League Divsion 1 fixtures 2019 for good measure

https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions/results/136336

thewobbler

There are 13 weeks between January and March. You need to play 8 to win your league. 8 games in 13 weeks is not a big demand. There'll be an allowance week or two  in there for bad weather.

There are 13 weeks between April and June. You will play between 7 and 10 matches to win the championship. The only to 10 is to be in a Leinster / Ulster prelim, then lose your provincial final, then bounce back to make an AI final. That's possible so has to be accounted for. We need to find another week, giving a maximum 10 games in 14 weeks, which isn't harsh.

Solutions aren't hard to find either. Either 1. scrape a July week back into intercounty, or  2. Do the provincial draws right after the league proper, and exclude the league semi finalists from getting a.l preliminary tie; thereby allowing the preliminaries to start in last week of March.


Stop looking for lemons when there's none on the table

thewobbler

Also Sid just a wee reminder.

When you bring up March weather affecting attendances at county championship, it is pure conjecture. As 6th Sam pointed out a while ago, 62,000 people find their way to Celtic Park every week, rain hail or snow.

When I bring up March weather affecting club matches being played, this is entirely factual. Until the water tables have risen, any sustained period of rain in March or April will wipe out all but the best surfaces.

Rossfan

Could those 2 bucks be given a private thread at this stage?

Looks like the "split season" is flavour of the month among most GAA people so will likely be adopted by Congress.

Any thoughts on the new inter Co.Senior Football Championship systems proposed by the Fixture Review Group?
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

thewobbler

Quote from: Rossfan on December 01, 2020, 07:16:55 PM
Could those 2 bucks be given a private thread at this stage?

Looks like the "split season" is flavour of the month among most GAA people so will likely be adopted by Congress.

Any thoughts on the new inter Co.Senior Football Championship systems proposed by the Fixture Review Group?

Agreed I'm done with that now.

—-

Re restructuring, if getting rid of the natural provincial structures, I see no merit in rebuilding them in a different way.

Something more conducive to a) competitive competitions and b) knockout excitement would be:

1. Have a league system as we do now. Two up, two down. No playoffs, no finals.

2. For the championship, after the league is over, every team is seeded according to their finishing position, for 3 weeks of Championship Qualifiers

- in week 1, teams 17-32 meet according to seed. So top of D3 plays bottom of D4. Second in D3 plays second last in D4.
- the losers, they go home. While if a lower ranked team beats a higher ranked team, they earn their seed.

- in week 2 the exact same exercise is repeated, except the D2 teams play those who've qualified. Top of D2 takes the lowest ranking remaining team. Second in D2 gets the second lowest. And so on.
- we now have 16 teams left.

- in week 3, rinse and repeat, except the D1 teams play the remaining qualifiers, again by seed order.
- we now have 8 teams left.

3. Then the Championship proper:

- Super 8s.
- Then semis
- Then final.

A d4 team would need 8 games to win an AI. A D1 team would need 6. How many games you need is derived from recent form, not from the province you reside.

Other key advantages:

- Finishing strongly in the league would take on all-time importance. League games would be fought out like championship games.

- the spotlight would fall firmly upon D3 and D4 for one week, and D2 and D3 teams the next. For once, they wouldn't be competing with D1 sides for exposure, attendances, coverage.

- if a D4 side or D3 side makes it through the qualifiers round 3, they should actually be battle hardened to meet a D1 side.

- the sides most likely to make the Super 8s (D1 sides) are spared two run outs  of smashing cannot fodder.

- the competitive season length for a county player would vary between 8 and 15 games, with 13 games the expected outcome for the champions most years. This would fit neatly into a 22 week window and actually afford the champion players a couple of clear weeks rest ahead of club commitments.


sid waddell

Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 07:08:05 PM
Also Sid just a wee reminder.

When you bring up March weather affecting attendances at county championship, it is pure conjecture. As 6th Sam pointed out a while ago, 62,000 people find their way to Celtic Park every week, rain hail or snow.

When I bring up March weather affecting club matches being played, this is entirely factual. Until the water tables have risen, any sustained period of rain in March or April will wipe out all but the best surfaces.
To compare Celtic supporters to the GAA inter-county match going public is one of the daftest things I've ever read on this board

Celtic have 50k season ticket holders

Although frequently over the last six or seven years, large swathes of them haven't even bothered to turn up for matches for which their attendance is already paid for - league games have attracted less than 30k

Celtic's average league attendance in 2012-13, a season in which they actually beat the Barcelona or Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, was 33k

So even the Celtic support, actual season ticket holders at that, has become very picky about what they'll attend

Now, if that's the case, just think how the GAA inter-county match going public, which is very much a floating public - as floating as the Green Party's vote in many places, will behave when matches are taken out of their natural habitat of late May and early June and into the cold of late March and early April

Let's say, in non-Covid world, the Leinster football final between Dublin and Meath is down for May 2nd - as it would be under your plan

Manchester United are likely to be playing Liverpool that day, a game which is likely to be very important in the destination of the Premier League title

A Dublin v Meath Leinster final held in it's natural habitat of a sunny afternoon in July will already be struggling for attendance because of Dublin's dominance

Throw it in on May 2nd, clashing with Manchester United v Liverpool, and you can knock a further 25% minimum off an attendance which would already be down at the best of times

Throw in the real world event of Covid and the after effects of Covid on top all this for 2022, when people will be struggling economically - going to matches costs money you know - especially if you're bringing a family - and the lunacy of the plan becomes ever more obvious

Gate receipts matter, and never more so than now

And this floating GAA public is not just a Dublin thing - it's a nationwide thing - in fact Dublin is more reliable than any other county in bringing a hardcore support out to go to matches

Fans in Munster and Connacht and parts of Ulster are far more fickle

If you're happy to cut 25% off the GAA's total gate receipts for a year - and that's a conservative estimate, and assumes a successful vaccination programme so that attendances will be possible again from 2022 on, well, that's your right, but at least be honest about what it entails  - financial destruction

I note again you refer to rounds of club championship fixtures in March - can you tell who is proposing this, or are you imagining things again?

What I proposed entails the club championships starting later than they already start

Water tables at the vast majority of inter-county grounds are not lower than anywhere else, by the way, but sure let's shoehorn the NFL into January and February with no breathing space, I'm sure there will be no postponements








sid waddell

Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 07:01:53 PM
There are 13 weeks between January and March. You need to play 8 to win your league. 8 games in 13 weeks is not a big demand. There'll be an allowance week or two  in there for bad weather.

There are 13 weeks between April and June. You will play between 7 and 10 matches to win the championship. The only to 10 is to be in a Leinster / Ulster prelim, then lose your provincial final, then bounce back to make an AI final. That's possible so has to be accounted for. We need to find another week, giving a maximum 10 games in 14 weeks, which isn't harsh.

Solutions aren't hard to find either. Either 1. scrape a July week back into intercounty, or  2. Do the provincial draws right after the league proper, and exclude the league semi finalists from getting a.l preliminary tie; thereby allowing the preliminaries to start in last week of March.


Stop looking for lemons when there's none on the table
11 matches to win an All-Ireland is quite possible as I demonstrated above

Win your provincial prelim, lose the provincial quarter final, four qualifier matches, three Super 8 matches, All-Ireland semis and final

8 NFL matches

5 McKenna Cup matches

That's 24 inter-county matches in six and half months

Now if somebody is looking for lemons, start with yourself

pbat

There is no issue if the GAA were prepared to be brave.  All players are club players first and released to county, with no club games 14 days before the county play in the championship. If a county player doesn't play for his club in the game preceding the county teams next match he is deemed ineligible for that county match. All county finals to be played by second Sunday of October or county board faces a hefty fine. Quit bowing down to the elitism and ego's of county managers.

sid waddell

Quote from: pbat on December 01, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
There is no issue if the GAA were prepared to be brave.  All players are club players first and released to county, with no club games 14 days before the county play in the championship. If a county player doesn't play for his club in the game preceding the county teams next match he is deemed ineligible for that county match. All county finals to be played by second Sunday of October or county board faces a hefty fine. Quit bowing down to the elitism and ego's of county managers.
Such a rule would be ridiculous in terms of natural justice and unenforceable, because there could be any number of perfectly legitimate reasons for such an occurrence - a minor injury, an illness, an exam, a wedding or a christening, a death

But by cutting out replays for all but All-Ireland semi-finals and finals, and by sticking rigidly to a fixtures programme with no exceptions, you can certainly play club championship matches during the inter-county championship season

You create designated club championship windows during the summer which are common to all counties - that means inter-county players know where they stand, club players know where they stand, and inter-county managers know where they stand

If there are no exceptions, players have no choice but to play or let down their club

It is no different a scenario to where players play for different teams at different times in other sports, ie. international windows in soccer and rugby

But this can only be administered on a nationwide basis, it needs national co-ordination so that individual counties do not take the piss - it is the decentralised nature of GAA fixture making, and the different approaches across counties, which create a non-level playing field

Like, if one county pulls club championship matches because their inter-county team is still involved, their next opponents are going to do the same thing

That's what must be avoided

And if that means certain people within a county should lose their power, then good


dec

Quote from: pbat on December 01, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
with no club games 14 days before the county play in the championship.

There is no reason why a county player can't play games on two successive weekends.

Rossfan

WhateverPbat and Sid but back in the real world it looks like the GAA is going for the "split" season of primarily County to mid July and exclusively Club from there.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM