A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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imtommygunn

Quote from: tbrick18 on July 15, 2024, 02:21:12 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 11, 2024, 08:33:17 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 07, 2024, 11:13:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 07, 2024, 10:17:57 PM"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?
Very little.
I would say the multiple health trusts, education authorities, councils, the duplicated education structures etc would be a not inconsiderable percentage.

I'm not sure what size the management structures in the health trusts are, but I think on the education structures we're not talking a lot of people. The number of teachers, classroom assistants etc would not change if the education was all brought under a single umbrella and only a percentage of that governance layer would be reduced.
Having multiple health trusts for a place the size of NI is madness I think.
But merging the education system I don't believe would impact the overall number of governance roles significantly.

I hear they are pretty big and would agree on the health trust thing. I would say it's more health than education costing this.

armaghniac

Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2024, 02:51:51 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on July 15, 2024, 02:21:12 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 11, 2024, 08:33:17 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 07, 2024, 11:13:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 07, 2024, 10:17:57 PM"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?
Very little.
I would say the multiple health trusts, education authorities, councils, the duplicated education structures etc would be a not inconsiderable percentage.

I'm not sure what size the management structures in the health trusts are, but I think on the education structures we're not talking a lot of people. The number of teachers, classroom assistants etc would not change if the education was all brought under a single umbrella and only a percentage of that governance layer would be reduced.
Having multiple health trusts for a place the size of NI is madness I think.
But merging the education system I don't believe would impact the overall number of governance roles significantly.

I hear they are pretty big and would agree on the health trust thing. I would say it's more health than education costing this.

Scotland has 14 health "boards", NI has 6 health "trusts". It is not clear that NI is hugely out of proportion with other places. There is a huge difference in public employment numbers, it is not just a question of having 4 health trusts instead of 6.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Milltown Row2

That's about right I suppose as there's over 5.5 million people in Scotland

How many 'health boards' are there in the south? Probably run differently
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

johnnycool

Quote from: armaghniac on July 15, 2024, 07:55:18 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2024, 02:51:51 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on July 15, 2024, 02:21:12 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 11, 2024, 08:33:17 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 07, 2024, 11:13:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 07, 2024, 10:17:57 PM"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?
Very little.
I would say the multiple health trusts, education authorities, councils, the duplicated education structures etc would be a not inconsiderable percentage.

I'm not sure what size the management structures in the health trusts are, but I think on the education structures we're not talking a lot of people. The number of teachers, classroom assistants etc would not change if the education was all brought under a single umbrella and only a percentage of that governance layer would be reduced.
Having multiple health trusts for a place the size of NI is madness I think.
But merging the education system I don't believe would impact the overall number of governance roles significantly.

I hear they are pretty big and would agree on the health trust thing. I would say it's more health than education costing this.

Scotland has 14 health "boards", NI has 6 health "trusts". It is not clear that NI is hugely out of proportion with other places. There is a huge difference in public employment numbers, it is not just a question of having 4 health trusts instead of 6.

Belfast alone used to have 4 health trusts until they amalgamated over 10 years ago and a big new Headquarters had to be built for this amalgamation.

NI needs only one trust or board and slice away at all that top level management and middle management.


Franko

Quote from: armaghniac on July 11, 2024, 09:41:53 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on July 11, 2024, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 11, 2024, 09:02:48 PMIt is important that someone identifies exactly where this extra is. Are health trusts less efficient than those in England, Scotland or Wales. Are councils? Does the dupicated education structure show up in smaller class sizes? More administrators?

it does not seem to be class size anyway, the health system is worse, so where exactly is this extra?


Indeed - you'd think any half competent governing body would be rather anxious to get to the root of it to minimise waste.

Of course, with Stormont being on the backburner for so many years, we've had our equally feckless civil servant elite on the case. Which means there are no doubt detailed dossiers on exactly this sitting on various minister's tables right now.

The point is that most people on the public payroll in any country are in education and health, rather than in bureaucracy. There may be waste in education and health, but there is no over provision of it, so where are the extra people that everyone talks about? SF have the Minister for Finance, it should be in their interest to identify this, whereas the unionists like having this as an obstacle to Irish unity.

This might have changed, but in the past, a lot of the bureaucracy around benefits for the entire UK was done in the 6 counties

I can't find a link to this, but I've definitely heard it discussed before

Basically the British gov't needed to find employment for people during the troubles when there was little or no private sector here - so they subbed out the administration of some GB departments

Some English guy querying why his dole was short this month will get speaking to a call centre in Belfast

armaghniac

Quote from: johnnycool on July 16, 2024, 11:23:21 AMNI needs only one trust or board and slice away at all that top level management and middle management.

If you go back to when they had the health boards in the 26 counties and they created the HSE then they just created another top layer, they did not reduce anything below that. And of course this new structure would be in Belfast and would centralise things even more than now.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Rossfan

They're planning 6 area boards of some sort here again.
In a State of 5.2m people you'd think the Dept of Health could manage the system without need for a HSE in the first place?
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM