Donegal great Martin McHugh claims Gaelic football is at a concerning "crossroads", with defensive tactics ruining the enjoyment of the game for "98% or 99%" of people.
The 1992 All-Ireland winner said he is particularly "fearful" for club football" which he reckons is "terrible in all counties, not just Ulster".
McHugh, father of current Donegal star Ryan, was speaking at the launch of the Allianz Football League just hours after watching Letterkenny IT beat UCD by 0-7 to 0-6 in a Sigerson Cup arm wrestle on Tuesday evening.
He was aghast that, in perfect conditions, the score was just 0-2 to 0-1 at half-time, while he said the second half of the recent Donegal-Derry McKenna Cup semi-final almost put him to sleep.
McHugh believes one particular rule change is badly needed to help rescue the game: That teams must keep at least three attackers high up the pitch at all times.
"I think clubs are following county football and I think club football, really, it's terrible to watch and I've watched a lot of club football," said McHugh. "They're trying to copy the county teams and they're not capable of doing it because they haven't got the players to do it.
"So I think definitely, Gaelic football, if people are going to be paying money in to watch it, or paying money to watch streaming and everything else, it's at a crossroads.
"I've been talking to people about this, they're going to have to take in a rule that we keep three players up the field at all times.
"Now people say about not [allowing] kicking the ball back, maybe that will come into it and I would also take away the forward mark and I would have it that each team would have to keep three players up the field at all times.
"I think we need that in Gaelic football at the minute because it's not a great spectacle. If you're big into tactics and big into that, you may enjoy it... 1% will study all that end of it, the other 98% or 99% just go for enjoyment.
"We want to see goals, we want to see enjoyment. That definitely has gone out of Gaelic football at the minute."
McHugh, father of 2012 All-Ireland winner Mark, isn't convinced the players even enjoy the way the game is being played.
"Maybe the players will tell you they do enjoy it, I don't know, I find it hard to think that they are enjoying the way football is at the minute," he said.
"Gaelic football, to me, seems to have gone, tactically, that you stop the good player and let the so-called weaker players have the ball all the time, let them have the ball.
"If you're not going to see our good players playing football then we have to, from a rules point of view, take in something that's going to help our good players to shine."
McHugh, who managed Cavan to Ulster success in 1997, feels the game is moving towards a version of rugby league.
"I'm very fearful for club football because I've been at a lot of club games; club football is terrible in all counties, not just Ulster, in all counties," said the pundit.
"It's copying inter-county football and they're not capable of doing it and it makes for a terrible spectacle."
Speaking about Letterkenny IT's surprise win over UCD in Convoy on Tuesday evening, which secured a Sigerson Cup quarter-final spot, McHugh said it was a difficult watch.
"We had 40 basically inter-county players playing a game on a perfect night, on a perfect pitch, everything perfect, and the game ended seven points to six," he sighed.
"I think it was two points to one at half-time. In the second half of the Derry-Donegal game in the McKenna Cup, you could have went to sleep. That's just the way football is. People say it's going like rugby league; it definitely is the way it's being played."
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https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40794108.html
I have to say I agree completely. What surprises me is how few people seem to agree, I know this board isn't necessarily representative of the 98% and may be more aligned with the 1% who find it tactically intriguing (and I can see that too at high level intercounty - but it may be the intensity and athleticism of what's on show disguises the offering at times), but is there anything less watchable than what would be decent club teams cancelling each other?
Two teams thinking they can play Dublin style 'keep-ball' (a curse on the game at any level tbh), giving defences time to set up etc...
McHugh gives some examples, and he's right, it's not just Ulster, it's everywhere, the Dublin county final being another fine example. I saw a few other Dublin club games this year, same thing, teams (with healthy sprinklings of all ireland medals) cancelling each other, defending en-masse and taking their frees.
Even for young players, I know a number of young lads who are on underage development squads, tactics are very much part of the offering, remove spontaneity, protect possession, play to the gameplan - it really takes the fun out of it for them. Yes, the possibility of pulling on a county jersey in championship keeps them there, but there's little enjoyment - and this for the 15, 16 and 17yo.
As a starting point, what is the consensus on here, do we need changes? Do people find much of what is on view appealing to watch? Or do many still hold the view that our game is fine and what we need is for people to stop tinkering with the rules?
Indeed, am I now the old lad who pined for the catch and kick game of the 50's, who I used to decry as being out of touch when I kicked ball 20 odd years ago??
I'm not sure what the answer is, but anything is worth trying in my opinion, 3 men always up is a start, I would also consider not allowing teams to go back over their own half way line again, keeping keepers inside their own 45 (no more free kicks - or at worst giving 30 secs to take a free from the moment of awarding it). The forward mark seemed like a good idea, but was flawed in definition which allowed people to take advantage of it with short passes into the chest, so time to get rid I think.
There were 20 more scores in Carlow on the same night and in the same competition as that LIT - UCD game.
There were 10 more scores in the second half in Armagh on the same night and in the same competition as that Donegal - Derry game.
There will always be shite tactics, shite teams, shite games. But there will also always be refreshing tactics, good teams, entertaining games.
It's a very GAA thing to try to make an issue out of an outlier. You're not sure of the solution because there isn't really a problem.
Quote from: onefineday on January 27, 2022, 11:44:31 PM
I have to say I agree completely. What surprises me is how few people seem to agree, I know this board isn't necessarily representative of the 98% and may be more aligned with the 1% who find it tactically intriguing (and I can see that too at high level intercounty - but it may be the intensity and athleticism of what's on show disguises the offering at times), but is there anything less watchable than what would be decent club teams cancelling each other?
Two teams thinking they can play Dublin style 'keep-ball' (a curse on the game at any level tbh), giving defences time to set up etc...
McHugh gives some examples, and he's right, it's not just Ulster, it's everywhere, the Dublin county final being another fine example. I saw a few other Dublin club games this year, same thing, teams (with healthy sprinklings of all ireland medals) cancelling each other, defending en-masse and taking their frees.
Even for young players, I know a number of young lads who are on underage development squads, tactics are very much part of the offering, remove spontaneity, protect possession, play to the gameplan - it really takes the fun out of it for them. Yes, the possibility of pulling on a county jersey in championship keeps them there, but there's little enjoyment - and this for the 15, 16 and 17yo.
As a starting point, what is the consensus on here, do we need changes? Do people find much of what is on view appealing to watch? Or do many still hold the view that our game is fine and what we need is for people to stop tinkering with the rules?
Indeed, am I now the old lad who pined for the catch and kick game of the 50's, who I used to decry as being out of touch when I kicked ball 20 odd years ago??
I'm not sure what the answer is, but anything is worth trying in my opinion, 3 men always up is a start, I would also consider not allowing teams to go back over their own half way line again, keeping keepers inside their own 45 (no more free kicks - or at worst giving 30 secs to take a free from the moment of awarding it). The forward mark seemed like a good idea, but was flawed in definition which allowed people to take advantage of it with short passes into the chest, so time to get rid I think.
If recent history has thought us anything, it's that this is not true. There will always be 2nd/3rd order effects with rule changes.
As a massive basketball fan id say the only way to stop players messing about with the ball and keeping ball for 2 mins before half time because their team is 2pts up and dont want to make a mistake is some kind of shot clock. obviously not as short as the basketball one but when the ball passes the teams own 45 they have 2 mins to shoot, but to be honesty I think the tide is changing naturally and a lot of teams are going more direct again
Leave it alone
Whatever rule is brought in there will be a tactic to ruin what the rule was brought in for.
If you go and watch a game from the 70's, even a top ended one, then watch a top end game from now and tell me which one is thought out and which one is kamikaze style
Quote from: themac_23 on January 28, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
As a massive basketball fan id say the only way to stop players messing about with the ball and keeping ball for 2 mins before half time because their team is 2pts up and dont want to make a mistake is some kind of shot clock. obviously not as short as the basketball one but when the ball passes the teams own 45 they have 2 mins to shoot, but to be honesty I think the tide is changing naturally and a lot of teams are going more direct again
Rule change: players who pass the ball backwards over either 65m line are penalised.
Penalty: opposing team is awarded a free (from hands or ground) from the offending team's 45m line.
Purpose of rule change: to minimise the pitch area available for a team in which to play "keep ball". Currently it is the most nullifying experience in football to press hard, and force a team out of their own trenches, to watch them literally boot the ball 80m back into the trenches when an "easy out" pass isn't available. Witness every game going back 10 years, but most of all witness a wonderful footballer like Ciaran Kilkenny happily applying this dagger multiple times a game.
I feel like it's dying off and less of an issue.
I think the big issue was the fatality of Dublin just always winning.
There will always be teams who will be defensive.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 28, 2022, 09:33:00 AM
Quote from: themac_23 on January 28, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
As a massive basketball fan id say the only way to stop players messing about with the ball and keeping ball for 2 mins before half time because their team is 2pts up and dont want to make a mistake is some kind of shot clock. obviously not as short as the basketball one but when the ball passes the teams own 45 they have 2 mins to shoot, but to be honesty I think the tide is changing naturally and a lot of teams are going more direct again
Rule change: players who pass the ball backwards over either 65m line are penalised.
Penalty: opposing team is awarded a free (from hands or ground) from the offending team's 45m line.
Purpose of rule change: to minimise the pitch area available for a team in which to play "keep ball". Currently it is the most nullifying experience in football to press hard, and force a team out of their own trenches, to watch them literally boot the ball 80m back into the trenches when an "easy out" pass isn't available. Witness every game going back 10 years, but most of all witness a wonderful footballer like Ciaran Kilkenny happily applying this dagger multiple times a game.
Good point, you see teams work it out through a press then instead of going forward and trying to work a score they turn and play the safe option 30 yard pass back. its seen as' rebuilding an attack' but its anything but, its a safe option and I think it makes it look like players dont want to misplace a pass etc, players dont take chances with tough passes anymore its all safe balls so as not to be the player who gives the ball away.
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Incorrect. If two managers send out defensive teams then of course rules can 'fix' it! How can you say a rule can't address it?
What McHugh is saying is fundamentally correct. If the problem is that teams just pull everyone back then a rule can address this, easily. I am intrigued by top level tactics where I know the players, counties and what's at stake. Where I don't know these, the game is horrible. Awful to watch.
I watched a stream recently of a Sigerson game. Turned it off after 20mins. Brutal sh*te altogether.
I would propose the following;
End the attacking mark
15 players (although I would love to see a 13 a side game)
A minimum of 4 players (3 is not enough) must be in their attacking half at all times. (Attackers only, defenders can vacate their own half)
This can be any players, not just forwards.
Where a team ends up with 3 players or less a free kick is awarded on the 21m line.
Should 3 offences occur (in the case of a team trying to close a team out) a penalty is awarded on the 4th offence.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Believe it or not BB, "defensive" football is not the scourge on our game. The real problem is that the impetus to attack is minimal for all teams, and especially so when in front. And the rules as they currently stand cater in full for an advantage to be gained by retaining the ball for endless periods in the most unskilled manner imaginable.
A rule change here isn't a hopeful thing. It's a necessity.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 28, 2022, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Believe it or not BB, "defensive" football is not the scourge on our game. The real problem is that there impetus to attack is minimal for all teams, and especially so when in front. And the rules as they currently stand cater in full for an advantage to be gained by retaining the ball for endless periods in the most skilled manner imaginable.
A rule change here isn't a hopeful thing. It's a necessity.
100% disagree. If a team puts everyone behind the ball inside their own half their opponents are under no obligation to risk giving away posession by running into traffic or kicking the ball away. When a team keeps the ball in a very boring way for minutes at a time I would always put the blame on the team who've retreated into their own third of the pitch ie the team who've set up defensively. It's only sensible for the other team to try to draw them out by keeping the ball and recycling it.
Quote from: lenny on January 28, 2022, 11:48:50 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 28, 2022, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Believe it or not BB, "defensive" football is not the scourge on our game. The real problem is that there impetus to attack is minimal for all teams, and especially so when in front. And the rules as they currently stand cater in full for an advantage to be gained by retaining the ball for endless periods in the most skilled manner imaginable.
A rule change here isn't a hopeful thing. It's a necessity.
100% disagree. If a team puts everyone behind the ball inside their own half their opponents are under no obligation to risk giving away posession by running into traffic or kicking the ball away. When a team keeps the ball in a very boring way for minutes at a time I would always put the blame on the team who've retreated into their own third of the pitch ie the team who've set up defensively. It's only sensible for the other team to try to draw them out by keeping the ball and recycling it.
Absolutely.
Retaining the ball is actually very difficult. But made easy when the opposition leave 4 or 5 players unmarked because they're camped inside their own 45 waiting for their opponents to lose patience and play in a low percentage pass.
Quote from: ck on January 28, 2022, 11:36:40 AM
I would propose the following;
End the attacking mark
15 players (although I would love to see a 13 a side game)
A minimum of 4 players (3 is not enough) must be in their attacking half at all times. (Attackers only, defenders can vacate their own half)
This can be any players, not just forwards.
Where a team ends up with 3 players or less a free kick is awarded on the 21m line.
Should 3 offences occur (in the case of a team trying to close a team out) a penalty is awarded on the 4th offence.
So you're saying one team can attack with 14 players while the other can only defend with 10? That'll definitely lead to high scoring games?
I'm not against having to leave 3/4 players up but how do you police it? Is it 4 specific players? Does an office stand at the half way line counting? Does that mean needing two officials at every club games including underage?
Lenny/ Hound.
Sorry lads, but you're out looking for the woods when you're surrounded by trees on this one.
A team whose primary intent is to retain possession will do so in the area of the field where it engages the least resistance
While you're seeing this as something that can be solved by "pushing up man on man" but under the current rules it's simply not true.
1. Unless your keeper pushes up too, then your opponents will always have a numerical advantage in their defensive end, courtesy of their own keeper.
2. If one or more of your defenders pushes up to close the gap, then the possession team changes their zone to the other end.
3. When those defenders return to their own end, the ball is then returned back into the space they've now vacated.
4. And this is the key bit: They're going through this process slowly. Apart from the occasional snap to make space, most of their players are walking/jogging into position. So they're not using much energy. Unlike their opponents, who now have had 5 or 6 going full tilt into space in vain attempts to close down their opponent's free man. Plus 2 or 3 who've done all this and watched the ball sail 80 yards back over their heads to the place they've just left.
Physically, this is punishing to play against. Mentally, it's soul destroying.
And man to man doesn't stop it. If it was that simple, the best teams in each county would simply play man on man.
But they can't, and they don't. Because mentally they would be be destroyed. And there's only one result that follows this.
wobbler, it's just not true to say the keeper makes keep-ball possible. If you've only a single spare man, then you're not going to be able to play keep-ball for any length of time. Keep-ball is only possible when the opposition have pretty much everyone back.
The best teams do play man to man. That's why at least 80% of the best GAA matches over the last 10 years involved two of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo. Many barnstorming, exciting, thrilling matches.
The "press" is the big thing in English soccer at the moment, the good teams will be doing this more and more in gaelic. No coincidence that Tyrone played more aggressive defence all over the pitch last year, rather than just hang everyone back and hope for the mistake.
no rule changes needed . just allow players to Tackle each other in the way they always used and turn a blind eye to lads who get a slap for acting the ****
same as has happened for the last 100 years
Quote from: rosnarun on January 28, 2022, 02:33:25 PM
no rule changes needed . just allow players to Tackle each other in the way they always used and turn a blind eye to lads who get a slap for acting the ****
same as has happened for the last 100 years
Totally agree. Think people are blaming the blanket defence which is just a symptom of the problem.
Frees are given against backs now for the slightest touch or infringement. Almost impossible as a defender these days, unless you tackle in packs and corner the attacker with 3 or 4 lads.
Way too many soft frees being given for nothing. Even a hard shoulder now could be given as a free. Only way teams defend is swarming in numbers. Until that changes, blanket defences will stay.
I think 98% is a bit high!
There's still plenty of decent football out there to be watched. Yeah, sometimes there's a stinker and there's often a one sided game that's virtually unwatchable (my own Laois involved in the losing side of a few of them in recent times) but in general there's still enough decent games out there to keep most of us interested.
Quote from: full moon on January 28, 2022, 03:38:54 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on January 28, 2022, 02:33:25 PM
no rule changes needed . just allow players to Tackle each other in the way they always used and turn a blind eye to lads who get a slap for acting the ****
same as has happened for the last 100 years
Totally agree. Think people are blaming the blanket defence which is just a symptom of the problem.
Frees are given against backs now for the slightest touch or infringement. Almost impossible as a defender these days, unless you tackle in packs and corner the attacker with 3 or 4 lads.
Way too many soft frees being given for nothing. Even a hard shoulder now could be given as a free. Only way teams defend is swarming in numbers. Until that changes, blanket defences will stay.
For me the way the game is refereed is why the game is so defensive. ATM a player who is tackled by 3 or 4 players, usually batin the crap out of him, will invariably get blew up for overycarrying. Whereas a player in a 1 on 1 situation is liable to get a free in if the defender so much as touches him. Any manager worth his salt knowing this is not going to leave his defender in the latter situation where the referee is giving all the leeway to the attacker. No he will pull the bodies back and bate the crap of the forward with multiple defenders to turn the ball over or get a free out. This happens consistently in games we have all seen it in every game played over the last 15 years. If more robust tackling 1 on 1 was allowed and no multiple tacklers allowed there would be less advantage in bringing the bodies back.
PS Wee Martin talks a load of crap lol
Quote from: ck on January 28, 2022, 11:28:55 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Incorrect. If two managers send out defensive teams then of course rules can 'fix' it! How can you say a rule can't address it?
What McHugh is saying is fundamentally correct. If the problem is that teams just pull everyone back then a rule can address this, easily. I am intrigued by top level tactics where I know the players, counties and what's at stake. Where I don't know these, the game is horrible. Awful to watch.
I watched a stream recently of a Sigerson game. Turned it off after 20mins. Brutal sh*te altogether.
Let me rephrase. The rules shouldn't. There shouldn't be an 'ideal' of how teams should play imposed by Croker. Leaving aside the 'what it is' argument, you are literally banning tactics.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 28, 2022, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Believe it or not BB, "defensive" football is not the scourge on our game. The real problem is that the impetus to attack is minimal for all teams, and especially so when in front. And the rules as they currently stand cater in full for an advantage to be gained by retaining the ball for endless periods in the most unskilled manner imaginable.
A rule change here isn't a hopeful thing. It's a necessity.
This is my point.
Retaining possession is bad so ban it.
Leaving aside the philosophical implications, how do you propose to ban keeping the ball?
Teams need to play the "kerry way" Outstanding kick passing and none of this basketball garbage. Too many sides keeping 15 behind the ball, wouldnt happen in the kingdom county.
Quote from: hoynevalley on January 28, 2022, 07:39:35 PM
Teams need to play the "kerry way" Outstanding kick passing and none of this basketball garbage. Too many sides keeping 15 behind the ball, wouldnt happen in the kingdom county.
Yes indeed, Kerry: the purest of the pure. ::)
To be honest fball these days is pure crap in general, a few good games hid the fact that the standard of fball is down, look how many lads can score a free from the ground, practically non existent, that bad you depending on u keepers to do it. To beat a high standard defensive team you have to mirror it to beat it, you play open fball you get beat, simple as that. Only reason teams play defensive fball is cause they get beat one on one in open fball cause the better players will win out. Playing defensive hids players limitations and gives them a chance. It's only in the case of Dublin with so many good scoring options that playing defensive against them only kept the score down.
Quote from: Redhand Santa on January 28, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
Quote from: ck on January 28, 2022, 11:36:40 AM
I would propose the following;
End the attacking mark
15 players (although I would love to see a 13 a side game)
A minimum of 4 players (3 is not enough) must be in their attacking half at all times. (Attackers only, defenders can vacate their own half)
This can be any players, not just forwards.
Where a team ends up with 3 players or less a free kick is awarded on the 21m line.
Should 3 offences occur (in the case of a team trying to close a team out) a penalty is awarded on the 4th offence.
So you're saying one team can attack with 14 players while the other can only defend with 10? That'll definitely lead to high scoring games?
I'm not against having to leave 3/4 players up but how do you police it? Is it 4 specific players? Does an office stand at the half way line counting? Does that mean needing two officials at every club games including underage?
Yes teams can attack with as many players as they like but the opposition must leave 4 players in their forward line. It would be risk v reward. Teams could attack in big numbers but if it breaks down there would be unmarked men at the other end. It would definitely add to the excitement.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 06:35:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 28, 2022, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2022, 10:04:48 AM
If team A play a certain tactic it's up to team B to try and pick it apart. If two managers semd out defensive teams then no rule change will 'fix' that.
The default setting is to t**ker with the rules, rather than encourage tactical innovation. It's a consistently bad idea.
Believe it or not BB, "defensive" football is not the scourge on our game. The real problem is that the impetus to attack is minimal for all teams, and especially so when in front. And the rules as they currently stand cater in full for an advantage to be gained by retaining the ball for endless periods in the most unskilled manner imaginable.
A rule change here isn't a hopeful thing. It's a necessity.
This is my point.
Retaining possession is bad so ban it.
Leaving aside the philosophical implications, how do you propose to ban keeping the ball?
I explained that above. I'm not proposing banning anyone keeping the ball. What I'm proposing (no backwards passing over either '65) is conceived to:
1. Reward defending teams for pushing up, by reducing the area available for their opponents to "keep ball" by 40 then 60%, as and when you push them out. Think of how enticing and rewarding this would be for a team chasing down a 3-4 point deficit in the closing minutes. Push up, push them out, make them play the ball.
2. Tilt the balance of territorial football vs possession football a little back towards territory, by virtue of if you move the ball quickly into an opponent's half as they push up, that's when you'll enjoy more room in their half.
3. And in doing the above, force the current litter of conmen "coaches" who are ruining our sport through their retain the ball first, retain the ball always football. I promise you that any f**ker with a loud voice and a willingness to drop players can "coach" 15 men to play this shitty variant of the game. It is the most soulless and skill-less way to play football.
——
You know the most galling thing about their turgid muck that our game has been reduced to?
It's this.
We're now entering 10 full years since Jimmy ruined football. And in those 10 years, apart from Jimmy getting Donegal over the lien, I cannot think of a genuine shock result of importance that arose from employing these tactics.
It's been a giant f**king waste of everyone's time. And it needs to end.
Quote from: full moon on January 28, 2022, 03:38:54 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on January 28, 2022, 02:33:25 PM
no rule changes needed . just allow players to Tackle each other in the way they always used and turn a blind eye to lads who get a slap for acting the ****
same as has happened for the last 100 years
Totally agree. Think people are blaming the blanket defence which is just a symptom of the problem.
Frees are given against backs now for the slightest touch or infringement. Almost impossible as a defender these days, unless you tackle in packs and corner the attacker with 3 or 4 lads.
Way too many soft frees being given for nothing. Even a hard shoulder now could be given as a free. Only way teams defend is swarming in numbers. Until that changes, blanket defences will stay.
Yep. Agreed.
I point the finger at the journos for yapping on about all these bad defenders stopping much vaunted forwards from "expressing themselves" - via whatever means necessary.
Now, a defender pretty much cannot touch an attacker - so the result is both sides having to cram the defence otherwise they're getting a hammering.
This Kilmacud Pearses game is really poor stuff. 7 scores between both teams in the first half, and TG4 missed the first few scores on and break! Tough watch for €20 entry fee
Quote from: full moon on January 29, 2022, 05:38:50 PM
This Kilmacud Pearses game is really poor stuff. 7 scores between both teams in the first half, and TG4 missed the first few scores on and break! Tough watch for €20 entry fee
Some amount of backwards passing by Kilmacud and Pearses dropping back watching them do it.
Jim McGuinness has a lot to answer for. Turgid to watch stuff from Pearses. It's like watching Monaghan.
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on January 29, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
Jim McGuinness has a lot to answer for. Turgid to watch stuff from Pearses. It's like watching Monaghan.
Both sides had similar tactics. Kilmacud especially punished the errors Pearses made. Was defensive football long before Jim McGuinness became a manager.
Yeah it's not his fault.
Gaa will turn like rugby with set moves decoy runners and crash ball up the middle
Donegal kind of played like that when they won the all Ireland get the ball to the best carrier run as far and hard as you can and recycle when near to goal for a pop at goals
After a weekend of defensive football with 15 men behind the ball in most games it's genuinely time to rescue it from ourselves.
The Derry game on Saturday night was genuinely one of the worst games I have seen in a long long time.
I understand it is a results game but how can anyone can be happy watching that
Quote from: Taylor on January 31, 2022, 10:29:38 AM
The Derry game on Saturday night was genuinely one of the worst games I have seen in a long long time.
I understand it is a results game but how can anyone can be happy watching that
I'll be controversial and say that based on the current rules then it's the most effective way to play the game.
Rory Gallagher is just doing what he has always done. Flood bodies back and depend on a few talented individuals to pick off scores. I was mystified to note James McCartans interview afterwards where he said he doesn't send his players out to play ultra defensively!.. Well James, they don't listen to you then cos it's the way they played and barely attacked during the entire game returning 0-6 in 70 minutes!
Quote from: ck on January 31, 2022, 12:05:13 PM
Quote from: Taylor on January 31, 2022, 10:29:38 AM
The Derry game on Saturday night was genuinely one of the worst games I have seen in a long long time.
I understand it is a results game but how can anyone can be happy watching that
I'll be controversial and say that based on the current rules then it's the most effective way to play the game.
Rory Gallagher is just doing what he has always done. Flood bodies back and depend on a few talented individuals to pick off scores. I was mystified to note James McCartans interview afterwards where he said he doesn't send his players out to play ultra defensively!.. Well James, they don't listen to you then cos it's the way they played and barely attacked during the entire game returning 0-6 in 70 minutes!
Would disagree - after Donegal when was the last time a team won the AI playing this way?
There needs to be emphasis on kickpassing and more lenient referees not blowing frees every 10 seconds.
Hand passing wise there may need to be a rule to cut the number of handpasses. A team like Kilcoo rarely kickpass at all.
Quote from: full moon on January 31, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
There needs to be emphasis on kickpassing and more lenient referees not blowing frees every 10 seconds.
Hand passing wise there may need to be a rule to cut the number of handpasses. A team like Kilcoo rarely kickpass at all.
So counting steps and counting handpasses, 3 attacking players must stay in a forward position!! christ the ref would be in for some beatings after the game
Quote from: full moon on January 31, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
There needs to be emphasis on kickpassing and more lenient referees not blowing frees every 10 seconds.
Hand passing wise there may need to be a rule to cut the number of handpasses. A team like Kilcoo rarely kickpass at all.
While I'd agree some refs are whistle happy, a fair percentage of tackles these days are akin to a bear hug. What's a ref to do? Was it about the 65th minute of the Derry Down game before a Down player was booked? The bear hug tackling was constant through out the game, as in all games
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2022, 12:47:58 PM
Quote from: full moon on January 31, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
There needs to be emphasis on kickpassing and more lenient referees not blowing frees every 10 seconds.
Hand passing wise there may need to be a rule to cut the number of handpasses. A team like Kilcoo rarely kickpass at all.
So counting steps and counting handpasses, 3 attacking players must stay in a forward position!! christ the ref would be in for some beatings after the game
Yeah I agree don't think its feasible for referees. What about a rule that you can only bandpass inside your own half ?
Might encourage more kicking passing. Because the mark doesn't seem to have made a difference.
That is a way to sensible in approach
Simply banning the hand pass would be a straightforward change.
Quote from: dec on January 31, 2022, 01:42:52 PM
Simply banning the hand pass would be a straightforward change.
what nonsense.
Quote from: full moon on January 31, 2022, 01:18:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 31, 2022, 12:47:58 PM
Quote from: full moon on January 31, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
There needs to be emphasis on kickpassing and more lenient referees not blowing frees every 10 seconds.
Hand passing wise there may need to be a rule to cut the number of handpasses. A team like Kilcoo rarely kickpass at all.
So counting steps and counting handpasses, 3 attacking players must stay in a forward position!! christ the ref would be in for some beatings after the game
Yeah I agree don't think its feasible for referees. What about a rule that you can only bandpass inside your own half ?
Might encourage more kicking passing. Because the mark doesn't seem to have made a difference.
I don't see a huge improvement with the forward mark to be fair, It hasn't encouraged players to kick in long balls as the percentages are still the same, 70/30 in favour of the defender. So scrap that altogether, not playing it back to the keeper for one pass makes no difference, the keeper (as in yesterdays game) is generally up front trying to score (and score) so scrap that also, again I don't see any benefit to it.
What may make a change is rewarding play on the score board, how they go about that I have no idea, but a bit like basketball, more for scores taken out side the 40...
either way teams will not be encouraged to boot the ball in and not play a possession style game, if you were a manager you are only concerned about winning with your club/county. playing fancy football and getting hammered every week will mean a very short career.
Be interesting to know how many senior managers are on here or have been senior managers and how they got on by playing 'open' football
Quote from: Dunsilly King on January 31, 2022, 01:48:17 PM
Quote from: dec on January 31, 2022, 01:42:52 PM
Simply banning the hand pass would be a straightforward change.
what nonsense.
Endless handpassing is indeed total nonsense and while that sh1te activity dominates we'll not see a decent FOOTball game.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 31, 2022, 05:26:58 PM
Quote from: Dunsilly King on January 31, 2022, 01:48:17 PM
Quote from: dec on January 31, 2022, 01:42:52 PM
Simply banning the hand pass would be a straightforward change.
what nonsense.
Endless handpassing is indeed total nonsense and while that sh1te activity dominates we'll not see a decent FOOTball game.
I don't mind the hand passing if it was refereed properly. Many players are getting away with throws ie they're not striking the ball with one hand stationary.
Not a patch on hurling in that regard. The ball thrown all round the place now.
The Hurley throwing is something else altogether but if any Ref tried to enforce the rules he'd be hung drawn and quartered by the media and "hurling men".
Let's stick to the bog ball as everyone is complaining about it and no one is complaining about hurling other than non hurling men
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 31, 2022, 05:55:44 PM
Not a patch on hurling in that regard. The ball thrown all round the place now.
With due respect to handpassing and I dont have much, the difference between a throw and a legitimate pass in Hurling is very little in terms of skill.
And likewise for football. We are deluding ourselves in both codes with the poor entertainment value from handpaasing a ball.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 31, 2022, 06:37:01 PM
The Hurley throwing is something else altogether but if any Ref tried to enforce the rules he'd be hung drawn and quartered by the media and "hurling men".
Not true. Some of us want handpassing addressed ASAP.
Good.
Ref's will call it when they see it, it's no different to any foul, some ref's see it others don't, you've got to see it as a foul before blowing, if they 'disguise' it then I can't see how, unless they actually ban it how they'll make it work
G some refs can't even imply some of the games basic rules. A throw up ball where players supposed to be 10/13m bck looks more like a rugby line out.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 01, 2022, 12:01:10 AM
G some refs can't even imply some of the games basic rules. A throw up ball where players supposed to be 10/13m bck looks more like a rugby line out.
If i waited after asking for the 10th time for all the players to stand back and allow me to throw the ball up for a hop ball we'd be playing 10 minutes injury, players are either thick or disrespectful
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 01, 2022, 12:01:10 AM
G some refs can't even imply some of the games basic rules. A throw up ball where players supposed to be 10/13m bck looks more like a rugby line out.
The problem is that 99.9999% of the time both sides are infringing.
The punishment for a situation where play is stopped and both sides are committing a foul is a throw-ball.
This is on the rule makers not the referees.
I'd suggest making infringing at throw balls a black card offence - pick the two closest players (one from either side) and give them 10 minutes of a sit-down.
Before long teams would start respecting the 13 metres a bit more and when they didn't referees would have an actual punishment.
Quote from: lenny on January 31, 2022, 05:54:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 31, 2022, 05:26:58 PM
Quote from: Dunsilly King on January 31, 2022, 01:48:17 PM
Quote from: dec on January 31, 2022, 01:42:52 PM
Simply banning the hand pass would be a straightforward change.
what nonsense.
Endless handpassing is indeed total nonsense and while that sh1te activity dominates we'll not see a decent FOOTball game.
I don't mind the hand passing if it was refereed properly. Many players are getting away with throws ie they're not striking the ball with one hand stationary.
ban handpass in defensive half of the field?
The football on display this weekend was atrocious stuff again. There's no point blaming particular teams anymore as it's widespread. It's like watching basketball on grass, very little contact allowed by referees. Players feigning injury.
Players refusing or not be allowed to kick the ball, handpassing sideways to keep possession. Awful as a spectator. I'm surprised crowds aren't down even more coupled with the terrible ticketing app farce. GAA are just lucky they're the only show in town in vast swathes of the island, as what the spectators are getting for their cash is just turgid shite.
Years ago, a neutral could watched a game to the end, now a day's the constant handpassing, rugby type defensive lines, low scoring made the game unwatchable. The 3 games today, you could watch bits and pieces but kept switching over channels. Soccer I don't even watch anymore as its long past that stage too.