New thread for fans of the excellent BBC Spotlight documentary.
Something I always found interesting was the unionist relationship with violence.
To this day their narrative is that all was well in the Ulster garden until the IRA sprang into existence for no apparent reason and started killing people, and they started Sinn Fein as a side project that sought to leverage the violence for political gain. They gained popularity because fenians are bloodthirsty traitors who live out their lives on the dole leaving the hard working prods to do all the work. Meanwhile the hardworking, law-abiding prods never vote for terrorists because prods are inherently peaceful. As for the civil rights movement, that was just a smokescreen for a sinister conspiracy to bring about a united Ireland in which prods would be forcibly converted into Papes. If the likes of the UVF ever shot anyone it was always "in retaliation for" some republican action, a narrative that appeared in the Newsletter right up to the end of the Troubles.
The reality is the loyalists fired the first shots of the Troubles because the fenians had the audacity to demand equal voting rights, an end to gerrymandering, and equal access to jobs and public housing. Unionist politicians and a certain loudmouthed preacher stirred up the mobs and organized armed militias behind the scenes. Publicly they've usually condemned loyalist violence (in much more muted language than their condemnation of republican violence) and refused to take any responsibility for creating the perfect conditions for said loyalist violence. But they were always happy to leverage any benefit from the threat of loyalist violence.
As for the "bloodthirsty fenians" claim, the SDLP were consistently the biggest nationalist party during the Troubles. It wasn't until quite a while after the ceasefire that SF started to eclipse them. Mainstream nationalism has always been inherently peaceful, which is more than can be said for mainstream unionism that has always had a shady behind-the-scenes relationship with the loyalist death squads.
Eamonn, you are based in the US, have you been able to watch it, if so now?
Youtube
I'm in San Diego , I've watched all four episodes on YouTube 😎
Good series
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Who compromised the operation. Was a lot of IRA spin about one of those who was killed that let it slip. But I often wonder if the information came from the very top of the IRA.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Yes, and there was one innocent man shot and killed and there nearly could have been others too. Obviously the general public didn't matter a shite to security forces, mi5, and ultimately no 10. What if a bus full of people had been driving past and dozens killed from the blast or shooting? People were just collateral damage. Disgusting.
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Who compromised the operation. Was a lot of IRA spin about one of those who was killed that let it slip. But I often wonder if the information came from the very top of the IRA.
It's quite clear it came from the top. You can tell an awful lot about people and the friends they keep ....
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Who compromised the operation. Was a lot of IRA spin about one of those who was killed that let it slip. But I often wonder if the information came from the very top of the IRA.
It's quite clear it came from the top. You can tell an awful lot about people and the friends they keep ....
Those lads knew what they were getting themselves into when they signed up, at that time the shoot to kill policy was well known, so the risks were high and they were willing to die during a gun battle. who sold them out will be the most nagging thing the families will have to deal with, unless they know already
I can't believe so many of them from that unit went to do that station! Massive risk for a isolated station. There isnt as much outrage from republicans on attacks like that as they died in battle, wasnt a fair fight on this occasion but during the troubles there wasnt much fairness going on
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
It should be called A Secret History of the Provisional IRA. Loyalist/British actions are mentioned only to give context to IRA actions at the same time. Ballymurphy Massacre wasn't even mentioned unless I missed it.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on October 04, 2019, 10:19:26 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
It should be called A Secret History of the Provisional IRA. Loyalist/British actions are mentioned only to give context to IRA actions at the same time. Ballymurphy Massacre wasn't even mentioned unless I missed it.
No there has been stuff on the Loyalist murders. but as mentioned light in content, Miami showband was done along with other bombings, Dundalk and so.. there was a very disturbing loyalist training video, I didn't whether to laugh or cry given the damage they did over the years, the republican feuds in the 70's were crazy
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Who compromised the operation. Was a lot of IRA spin about one of those who was killed that let it slip. But I often wonder if the information came from the very top of the IRA.
It's quite clear it came from the top. You can tell an awful lot about people and the friends they keep ....
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
Anthony Hughes an innocent man was killed that day. Was on his road home from work. Left a wife and 3 young daughters. When I think of Loughgall that's what I think of. With the troubles I think of all those innocent people who lost their lives. An absolute waste.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2019, 10:01:12 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Who compromised the operation. Was a lot of IRA spin about one of those who was killed that let it slip. But I often wonder if the information came from the very top of the IRA.
It's quite clear it came from the top. You can tell an awful lot about people and the friends they keep ....
Those lads knew what they were getting themselves into when they signed up, at that time the shoot to kill policy was well known, so the risks were high and they were willing to die during a gun battle. who sold them out will be the most nagging thing the families will have to deal with, unless they know already
I can't believe so many of them from that unit went to do that station! Massive risk for a isolated station. There isnt as much outrage from republicans on attacks like that as they died in battle, wasnt a fair fight on this occasion but during the troubles there wasnt much fairness going on
I get that. The viewpoint I'm coming from is that this was clearly a wipeout job. There was the opportunity to stop this attack and arrest these men but the SAS were deployed clearly with an objective of all out destruction. Given the denial of there being a 'war' here this was clearly an action of war. The murky 'behind the doors' war that was played here was obscene. This was a 'new' war in many ways. A lot of bus 'crashes' and 'accidents on training operations ' overseas happened. The IRA were not the only organisation involved in 'disappearing ' people.
I have to say I have really enjoyed this show, even though yer woman presenting it would do your head in with her slow and drawn out sentences.
Just on a side note lads, on the last episode the UDR lad outlined how he was attacked (the first time) while out doing a plumbing job. Says he was shot in the chest and fell in the corridor. Sitting against the wall he looked into the eyes of his would be killer. Next thing ya know he was running between the houses. That doesn't add up does it. How did he get out of that house? Or did I miss that explanation.
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 04, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
To be honest it's good to a point but it is still quite sanitised. I know there are 3 shows left but it has been quite light on loyalist terrorism in my opinion. I also question the motivation of the contributions of some of them and also their veracity. The episode that showed about Loughall was good but I think the biggest question that needed to be asked was not asked. Not one person asked the question why were there no arrests whatsoever. The Security forces knew what was coming, they knew who was doing it and they could have arrested them. It was a deliberate wipeout, shoot to kill. That bugs me that it was somewhat brushed over. The East Tyrone brigade was the most deadly and it was a clear policy to annihilate them.
Who compromised the operation. Was a lot of IRA spin about one of those who was killed that let it slip. But I often wonder if the information came from the very top of the IRA.
It's quite clear it came from the top. You can tell an awful lot about people and the friends they keep ....
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
Anthony Hughes an innocent man was killed that day. Was on his road home from work. Left a wife and 3 young daughters. When I think of Loughgall that's what I think of. With the troubles I think of all those innocent people who lost their lives. An absolute waste.
Yes, as do I. Did the security forces/British government not have a responsibility to Anthony Hughes and any other civilian who might have been caught up in an attack they had prior knowledge of?
Quote from: lurganblue on October 04, 2019, 03:03:28 PM
I have to say I have really enjoyed this show, even though yer woman presenting it would do your head in with her slow and drawn out sentences.
Just on a side note lads, on the last episode the UDR lad outlined how he was attacked (the first time) while out doing a plumbing job. Says he was shot in the chest and fell in the corridor. Sitting against the wall he looked into the eyes of his would be killer. Next thing ya know he was running between the houses. That doesn't add up does it. How did he get out of that house? Or did I miss that explanation.
Aye that was a bit of a puzzler alright
Quote from: lurganblue on October 04, 2019, 03:03:28 PM
I have to say I have really enjoyed this show, even though yer woman presenting it would do your head in with her slow and drawn out sentences.
Just on a side note lads, on the last episode the UDR lad outlined how he was attacked (the first time) while out doing a plumbing job. Says he was shot in the chest and fell in the corridor. Sitting against the wall he looked into the eyes of his would be killer. Next thing ya know he was running between the houses. That doesn't add up does it. How did he get out of that house? Or did I miss that explanation.
I was thinking that myself. It sounds like a Hollywood movie where the goodie gets shot in the chest but keeps on running. I always shake my head when something like that happens.
That house on the left was my grannies house, in lake view cottages in Ardboe. Straight across from Forbes shop. I was practically reared around there as a child, knew the house straight away . I must find out where he was shot , that hedge he ran through was my grandmothers garden I think.
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 05, 2019, 04:16:31 AM
That house on the left was my grannies house, in lake view cottages in Ardboe. Straight across from Forbes shop. I was practically reared around there as a child, knew the house straight away . I must find out where he was shot , that hedge he ran through was my grandmothers garden I think.
Aye I thought that shop was in Ardboe alright.
I've just finished the first episode, it's good for what it is, but it's not a fluid historical account.Seeing that Para 1 was ordered into Derry and obviously given a free reign, why is there so much focus on prosecuting individual Paras? as if the actions were the result of a bad bunch and not military strategy.
When I watch these shows my initial response is, So What?
All this collusion, dirty games, cover ups has been known for decades. Known by politicians and journalists. Known and ignored. And now suddenly its news worthy? Where were these f**kers when it mattered 20 and 30 years ago?
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/mi5-protected-martin-mcguinness-for-years-says-thatcher-s-spy-within-sinn-fein-1-9096070
2 very reliable and independent sources ::)
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2019, 08:35:36 PM
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/mi5-protected-martin-mcguinness-for-years-says-thatcher-s-spy-within-sinn-fein-1-9096070
Not much of a story beyond the headlines. MI5 thought McGuinness was someone they could work with so didn't try to make him look bad to the hardliners.
Quote from: Itchy on October 06, 2019, 08:19:20 PM
When I watch these shows my initial response is, So What?
All this collusion, dirty games, cover ups has been known for decades. Known by politicians and journalists. Known and ignored. And now suddenly its news worthy? Where were these f**kers when it mattered 20 and 30 years ago?
There are some new bits - at least for me, curious bits like the footage of McGuinness in "free derry"
Also the humourous sarcastic references to Adams not having a clue what a firearm was about, in the Internment camp and after.
There is another audience now and they would have to be asked what do they make out of this series.
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
I would query why there was a whole unit used on that job though... I'd have thought these cells operated in small groups, 4 or so, this was to stop information being leaked
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 07, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
I would query why there was a whole unit used on that job though... I'd have thought these cells operated in small groups, 4 or so, this was to stop information being leaked
Father Faul wasn't backwards in coming forwards about what happened at Loughgall.
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on October 07, 2019, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 07, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
I would query why there was a whole unit used on that job though... I'd have thought these cells operated in small groups, 4 or so, this was to stop information being leaked
Father Faul wasn't backwards in coming forwards about what happened at Loughgall.
He didn't say what happened nor did he say what he believed had happened. He merely referenced a rumour about what happened and said he found the rumour intriguing. The absolutely ridiculous rumour being that Adams set up the IRA unit to be wiped out.
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on October 07, 2019, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 07, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
I would query why there was a whole unit used on that job though... I'd have thought these cells operated in small groups, 4 or so, this was to stop information being leaked
Father Faul wasn't backwards in coming forwards about what happened at Loughgall.
He didn't say what happened nor did he say what he believed had happened. He merely referenced a rumour about what happened and said he found the rumour intriguing. The absolutely ridiculous rumour being that Adams set up the IRA unit to be wiped out.
Not all that ridiculous to be honest.
Most uncontrollable unit, arguably the most successful unit, biggest barrier to peace, alleged/proven depending on who you talk to hatred between Adams/Lynagh....I'm not saying I agree with it, but I am saying that the whole truth about Loughgall has not and probably never will be known.
I admit I'm slightly biased to the events at Loughgall considering I had some family link to the event, I am open minded enough to accept that you may be correct. I'm also open minded enough to accept that not everything about that day adds up.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 07, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
I would query why there was a whole unit used on that job though... I'd have thought these cells operated in small groups, 4 or so, this was to stop information being leaked
Hmm yeah, you never know. Does make you wonder why so many big men went on that job
In the same way Bono flies separately to gigs from the others in U2. Of course, that could just be that the other 3 think he's a knobhead and insist he flies separately
Maybe Bono flies with Ryanair with their low CO2[/sub][/sub] fuel.
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
Anyone with an once of sense knows that they were set up. To think that the British Army stumbled across this kind of operation is extremely foolish.
Did Peter Taylor not touch on this in his recent doc?? (not about Bono obvs)
Quote from: BennyCake on October 07, 2019, 12:45:40 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 07, 2019, 10:29:52 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
I would query why there was a whole unit used on that job though... I'd have thought these cells operated in small groups, 4 or so, this was to stop information being leaked
Hmm yeah, you never know. Does make you wonder why so many big men went on that job
In the same way Bono flies separately to gigs from the others in U2. Of course, that could just be that the other 3 think he's a knobhead and insist he flies separately
Bono and planes are not the best of friends, apparently he's had a few near misses. I'd say they don't want to fly with him, and he's a knobhead
Believe 'victims' campaigner Willy's terrorism links (surprise surprise) will be covered in this week's show. The hypocrisy of unionists/loyalists is truly vomit inducing.
There is a review of episode 5 on Slugger O'Toole (the author saw a preview showing). As red hander stated it seems to focus heavily on the orange side of the fence
https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/10/08/spotlight-a-secret-history-of-the-troubles-episode-5-a-dirty-war-with-unionist-political-support-for-loyalist-insurrection-security-service-and-government-support-for-collision-bbc-one-ni-and-bb/
Quote from: red hander on October 07, 2019, 09:19:17 PM
Believe 'victims' campaigner Willy's terrorism links (surprise surprise) will be covered in this week's show. The hypocrisy of unionists/loyalists is truly vomit inducing.
Willie's close 'friend' Pastor Barry Halliday showing how much of a man of god he is.
@SJAMcBride·9h
Willie Frazer's close friend Barry Halliday has posted a video apparently endorsing his actions, saying "if somebody's pointing a gun, why wouldn't we point a gun back?" and "I'm not going to disassociate myself &...I'm not worried about the lesser breeds"
https://www.facebook.com/william.frazer.58/videos/2962585980427140/
To think that slime ball was invited to march his brigade of bigots down O Connell street. We owe the dubs a great thank you for stopping that happening.
Willy as dangerous as he was is only the low Hanging fruit.
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
Its pretty well accepted that Lynagh and probably a good squad of East Tyrone was on the verge of joining O'Bradaigh and what became the Contos. Losing your most effective unit to a rival organisation gives the motive.
Quote from: MoChara on October 09, 2019, 07:52:44 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on October 07, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: trailer on October 04, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
Exactly. The IRA leaders sent these men out knowing that they would be killed.
The IRA leadership sent their most effective unit out to be killed?
You do talk some utter sh1te don't you.
Its pretty well accepted that Lynagh and probably a good squad of East Tyrone was on the verge of joining O'Bradaigh and what became the Contos. Losing your most effective unit to a rival organisation gives the motive.
And there's no evidence apart from wild speculation that they and others were sold out by the leadership. All other evidence points to a combination of information gathering events leading to the likliehood that this barracks was the next target and it was attacked using similar methods and numbers that had been used in earlier attacks. There were touts everywhere who were republican sympathisers on the surface but underneath sold out to avoid petty crime prosecutions.