Clerical abuse!

[Lar Naparka]

This decent man is heartbroken by the fact that most of those who attended the church service won't show their faces in a church again until another funeral or wedding ceremony is held.
The drop off in priests' numbers is more than matched by the decline of church-going parishioners and this rural parish just mirrors the reality of what is happening throughout the land.

So the church in that community is not so alive and well after all then. Is it a similar picture around the country?  I remember there being one mass on a Saturday night and about two on a Sunday morning in each of the two chapels in my old parish and they'd both be full.  I hear that nowadays they have one in one church on the Saturday night and one in the other church the following morning and neither is filled.

Without a doubt, it is.
I live in the parish of Donnycarney on Dublin's Northside. You could say it's a middle-aged, middle-class area. There were three fulltime priests at work here until recently. Now, there is only one and I'm told he will soon have to cover the needs of the adjoining parish of Fairview as well.
The road I live on is quite long; there are 128 houses on it. No more than 20 adults could be described as regular mass goers. They are almost exclusively OAPs. I'm quite sure of my figures here.  I often give a lift to a few of them to the church when a funeral service is being held. 
In my native parish of Swinford in East Mayo, the fall off in church goers is not as dramatic as is the case in Donnycarney but it is quite substantial all the same. The drift way from the church began long before the clerical abuse scandal hit the headlines but the ongoing drip by drip revelations have certainly speeded it up.
From what I see and hear, I've no doubt that the parishes I have mentioned are by no means unique in this regard.

[Lar Naparka]

I have known dozens of Priests and only one was involved in clerical abuse (raping children to put it another way). The other priests almost to a man made massive positive differences to the communities they ministered, in some cases they changed those communities forever, for the better.
The clergy who were involved in abuse should be outted and punished to the full letter of the law, but wether you like it or not, this was only a tiny percentage of the total clergy in Ireland, you are tarring all with the one brush.
To say they knew what was going on and kept silent, therefore are guilty is a moot point as we can only speculate, unless you are a priest?

Isn't that the point (bold), GDA?

That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

Which prompts the question as to why these otherwise decent, upstanding Clergy didn't speak out publicly? As I see it, there can be only one reason, namely that they witnessed how the Church, right up to the very top, was so much more concerned for its own reputation than its morality, that it suppressed, denied, colluded with and even facilitated the continuance of this abuse.

And therefore individual non-abusing Clergy concluded that to speak out, and thereby risk besmirching the reputation of the Church publicly, would make no great difference, other than to harm their own personal chances of advancement within the Church.

And that is why this scandal is so grievous - it is not just a case of "a few bad apples spoiling the barrel etc". Rather, that argument simply no longer applies, since the institution itself  has been conclusively demonstrated to be inherently corrupt at every level, in very many Dioceses, in very many Countries, over decades.

Worse still, even now after the stench of corruption has escaped into the wider world, the reaction of the institution is still to deny, evade, deflect, cover-up and obfuscate, when the only acceptable reaction should encompass genuine repentance, a plea for forgiveness and a determination to do everything possible to purge the Church of this evil, so that it could never occur again.

Worst of all (imo), is that no-one, whether Believer or Heathen, can have any real confidence that any of that last will occur... 

Hi EG, you've raised a few points I'd like to comment on.


That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

I guess the fact is that most of them were not and many others failed to accept the reality when they became aware that some of their colleagues were abusive.
The Church was and still is organised along very strictly hierarchical lines. The same could be said about Irish society in general up to comparatively recent times.
The guard was expected to follow his sergeant's instructions to the letter, without pausing to ask a question or to raise an objection. The teacher in the classroom lived in fear of the school inspector and the curate didn't give any back chat to the parish priest. The PP in turn danced to his bishop's tune and so on and on...
The same top down system of authority applies to religious congregations as well. On a much lighter note, I often think of the way the Sisters of Mercy operated at one time  in my native town.
The Mother Superior of the local convent was Assistant Matron at the local hospital, while the Matron, in turn, was her assistant at the convent. Those two ladies hated each other and, as their roles switched twice daily, stories of what each made the other do while she had the whip hand, are still remembered in the area.
Authority was all. Period.
During the course of my career as a Primary schoolteacher I was in regular contact with Christian Brothers, some of whom were in the same line of work. I also met Patrician and Marist Brothers from time to time.
All of them shared a common trait; a defining characteristic. I never thought of this until recently but, to a man, they were on their guard whenever a fellow member of their congregation was present.
Life in their monasteries /community houses or wherever they lived must have been extremely stressful at the best of times!
It seems that all were afraid that colleagues might carry tales back to the Boss. Many of the class teachers I met would have spent periods working in Industrial Schools. It turns out that some were active child abusers. Neither I nor lay teachers who taught alongside them ever suspected this.
The religious authorities had one very effective way to keep their underlings in check. They made sure those who left would find it almost impossible to pick up a worthwhile job in the outside world.
For starters, those who left would be outcasts in their own neighbourhoods---bringing shame on the family's good name etc.
Also, they would be totally unsuited for any sort of secular work. Their overlords saw to that. People who take up teaching have to spend a probationary period of two years before they can secure a permanent post.  (Pension rights, holiday pay, order of seniority of the staff etc.)
But for brothers and nuns, the situation was a bit more complicated than that. (Still is, AFAIK.)
Lay teachers generally gain their first and second years diplomas in, naturally enough, their first and second years of teaching.
Not so with the religious brigade. The holding of the Second Diploma examination (Inspectorial visit) can be delayed for years.
Their superiors decide the timing; invariably, the educational authorities will agree.
By the time some of those unqualified teachers gain their second diploma, they will have become so isolated from the real world that leaving their order is no longer a viable option.

Now, I am not attempting to defend the behaviour of non-abusive priests and religious who won't speak up now—the time for Omerta, the Irish version, is over. But all were 'groomed' in a fashion also. Their superiors saw to that and they in their time underwent the same indoctrination process.
It's time for this circle of evil to be broken.

[mylestheslasher]

Remember this guy...

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2009/01/priest-completes-walk-of-atonement-over.html

How come no other priests walked with him?

[Tyrones own]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

[muppet]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

Absolutely disgusting.

What were you searching for that led you to that?

The DHFC is dedicated to the defense of free societies whose moral, cultural and economic foundations are under attack by leftist and Islamist enemies at home and abroad.

[Tyrones own]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

Absolutely disgusting.

What were you searching for that led you to that?

If I thought it had any bearing on the reason I posted it, i'd tell ye
but what do ye say we just stay on topic, sore as it is

[muppet]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

Absolutely disgusting.

What were you searching for that led you to that?

If I thought it had any bearing on the reason I posted it, i'd tell ye
but what do ye say we just stay on topic, sore as it is

Well if we are being pedantic you said at least child abuse makes for scandal in the Catholic Church. It doesn't. That is the problem. They seem to have ignored it for 30 years. It is a scandal in Ireland and many other countries, but it certainly doesn't appear to register as scandalous to the Vatican.

[The Iceman]

That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

I guess the fact is that most of them were not and many others failed to accept the reality when they became aware that some of their colleagues were abusive.
The Church was and still is organised along very strictly hierarchical lines. The same could be said about Irish society in general up to comparatively recent times.
The guard was expected to follow his sergeant's instructions to the letter, without pausing to ask a question or to raise an objection. The teacher in the classroom lived in fear of the school inspector and the curate didn't give any back chat to the parish priest. The PP in turn danced to his bishop's tune and so on and on...
The same top down system of authority applies to religious congregations as well. On a much lighter note, I often think of the way the Sisters of Mercy operated at one time  in my native town.
The Mother Superior of the local convent was Assistant Matron at the local hospital, while the Matron, in turn, was her assistant at the convent. Those two ladies hated each other and, as their roles switched twice daily, stories of what each made the other do while she had the whip hand, are still remembered in the area.
Authority was all. Period.
During the course of my career as a Primary schoolteacher I was in regular contact with Christian Brothers, some of whom were in the same line of work. I also met Patrician and Marist Brothers from time to time.
All of them shared a common trait; a defining characteristic. I never thought of this until recently but, to a man, they were on their guard whenever a fellow member of their congregation was present.
Life in their monasteries /community houses or wherever they lived must have been extremely stressful at the best of times!
It seems that all were afraid that colleagues might carry tales back to the Boss. Many of the class teachers I met would have spent periods working in Industrial Schools. It turns out that some were active child abusers. Neither I nor lay teachers who taught alongside them ever suspected this.
The religious authorities had one very effective way to keep their underlings in check. They made sure those who left would find it almost impossible to pick up a worthwhile job in the outside world.
For starters, those who left would be outcasts in their own neighbourhoods---bringing shame on the family's good name etc.
Also, they would be totally unsuited for any sort of secular work. Their overlords saw to that. People who take up teaching have to spend a probationary period of two years before they can secure a permanent post.  (Pension rights, holiday pay, order of seniority of the staff etc.)
But for brothers and nuns, the situation was a bit more complicated than that. (Still is, AFAIK.)
Lay teachers generally gain their first and second years diplomas in, naturally enough, their first and second years of teaching.
Not so with the religious brigade. The holding of the Second Diploma examination (Inspectorial visit) can be delayed for years.
Their superiors decide the timing; invariably, the educational authorities will agree.
By the time some of those unqualified teachers gain their second diploma, they will have become so isolated from the real world that leaving their order is no longer a viable option.

Now, I am not attempting to defend the behaviour of non-abusive priests and religious who won't speak up now—the time for Omerta, the Irish version, is over. But all were 'groomed' in a fashion also. Their superiors saw to that and they in their time underwent the same indoctrination process.
It's time for this circle of evil to be broken.

I think I mentioned this early on in the thread but none of us on here can really understand the oaths of obedience that clergy take. Add that to what was said above (good post btw) and we don't have excuses for people but at least we have some understanding as to why so many didn't speak up.

The circle of evil does need to be broken. Unfortunately there isn't an big supply of people stepping forward to fill the roles that the old and guilty brigade would have to vacate.

[mylestheslasher]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

Absolutely disgusting.

What were you searching for that led you to that?

If I thought it had any bearing on the reason I posted it, i'd tell ye
but what do ye say we just stay on topic, sore as it is

Well if we are being pedantic you said at least child abuse makes for scandal in the Catholic Church. It doesn't. That is the problem. They seem to have ignored it for 30 years. It is a scandal in Ireland and many other countries, but it certainly doesn't appear to register as scandalous to the Vatican.

Its a sickening and disgusting act what that article says if its true. However, not sure how relevant it is to this thread unless we are trying to show that all religions are corrupt at their core which I would totally agree with.

[BarryBreensBandage]

That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

I guess the fact is that most of them were not and many others failed to accept the reality when they became aware that some of their colleagues were abusive.
The Church was and still is organised along very strictly hierarchical lines. The same could be said about Irish society in general up to comparatively recent times.
The guard was expected to follow his sergeant's instructions to the letter, without pausing to ask a question or to raise an objection. The teacher in the classroom lived in fear of the school inspector and the curate didn't give any back chat to the parish priest. The PP in turn danced to his bishop's tune and so on and on...
The same top down system of authority applies to religious congregations as well. On a much lighter note, I often think of the way the Sisters of Mercy operated at one time  in my native town.
The Mother Superior of the local convent was Assistant Matron at the local hospital, while the Matron, in turn, was her assistant at the convent. Those two ladies hated each other and, as their roles switched twice daily, stories of what each made the other do while she had the whip hand, are still remembered in the area.
Authority was all. Period.
During the course of my career as a Primary schoolteacher I was in regular contact with Christian Brothers, some of whom were in the same line of work. I also met Patrician and Marist Brothers from time to time.
All of them shared a common trait; a defining characteristic. I never thought of this until recently but, to a man, they were on their guard whenever a fellow member of their congregation was present.
Life in their monasteries /community houses or wherever they lived must have been extremely stressful at the best of times!
It seems that all were afraid that colleagues might carry tales back to the Boss. Many of the class teachers I met would have spent periods working in Industrial Schools. It turns out that some were active child abusers. Neither I nor lay teachers who taught alongside them ever suspected this.
The religious authorities had one very effective way to keep their underlings in check. They made sure those who left would find it almost impossible to pick up a worthwhile job in the outside world.
For starters, those who left would be outcasts in their own neighbourhoods---bringing shame on the family's good name etc.
Also, they would be totally unsuited for any sort of secular work. Their overlords saw to that. People who take up teaching have to spend a probationary period of two years before they can secure a permanent post.  (Pension rights, holiday pay, order of seniority of the staff etc.)
But for brothers and nuns, the situation was a bit more complicated than that. (Still is, AFAIK.)
Lay teachers generally gain their first and second years diplomas in, naturally enough, their first and second years of teaching.
Not so with the religious brigade. The holding of the Second Diploma examination (Inspectorial visit) can be delayed for years.
Their superiors decide the timing; invariably, the educational authorities will agree.
By the time some of those unqualified teachers gain their second diploma, they will have become so isolated from the real world that leaving their order is no longer a viable option.

Now, I am not attempting to defend the behaviour of non-abusive priests and religious who won't speak up now—the time for Omerta, the Irish version, is over. But all were 'groomed' in a fashion also. Their superiors saw to that and they in their time underwent the same indoctrination process.
It's time for this circle of evil to be broken.

I think I mentioned this early on in the thread but none of us on here can really understand the oaths of obedience that clergy take. Add that to what was said above (good post btw) and we don't have excuses for people but at least we have some understanding as to why so many didn't speak up.

The circle of evil does need to be broken. Unfortunately there isn't an big supply of people stepping forward to fill the roles that the old and guilty brigade would have to vacate.

There doesn't have to be an influx of people, Iceman. I only recently discovered that the only sacraments that are the sole responsibility of the local priest, according to Canon Law, are - anointing of the sick, Confession (Penance) and the Eucharist.
As told to me by the parish priest.
I have read quite a few of your posts, and commend the defence of your beliefs. I think the natural progression away from priests controlling everything to involving decent lay people to be included in, eg, preaching, daily reflection, Marriage, Funeral could be a step in the right direction.
It would certainly make the Church more real to people and more of a guidance, less a command.

[Tyrones own]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

Absolutely disgusting.

What were you searching for that led you to that?

If I thought it had any bearing on the reason I posted it, i'd tell ye
but what do ye say we just stay on topic, sore as it is

Well if we are being pedantic you said at least child abuse makes for scandal in the Catholic Church. It doesn't. That is the problem. They seem to have ignored it for 30 years. It is a scandal in Ireland and many other countries, but it certainly doesn't appear to register as scandalous to the Vatican.

This isn't what you'd label a scandal
Yes, they spent 30 years running from it, not changing laws to condone it.

[fearbrags]

IMHO The Garda Siochana have got off very lightly with respect to child abuse
The church has being  hammered and rightly so
And from what I see the garda are not improving even in cases that the church is not involved

[muppet]

Atleast child abuse makes for a scandal in the Catholic Church!

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage/

Absolutely disgusting.

What were you searching for that led you to that?

If I thought it had any bearing on the reason I posted it, i'd tell ye
but what do ye say we just stay on topic, sore as it is

Well if we are being pedantic you said at least child abuse makes for scandal in the Catholic Church. It doesn't. That is the problem. They seem to have ignored it for 30 years. It is a scandal in Ireland and many other countries, but it certainly doesn't appear to register as scandalous to the Vatican.

This isn't what you'd label a scandal
Yes, they spent 30 years running from it, not changing laws to condone it.

Misunderstanding here.

I took you literally. The Church don't appear to accept it as a scandal, i.e. it isn't a scandal in the Catholic Church. The rest of us most certainly do think it is a scandal.

[BarryBreensBandage]

I have known dozens of Priests and only one was involved in clerical abuse (raping children to put it another way). The other priests almost to a man made massive positive differences to the communities they ministered, in some cases they changed those communities forever, for the better.
The clergy who were involved in abuse should be outted and punished to the full letter of the law, but wether you like it or not, this was only a tiny percentage of the total clergy in Ireland, you are tarring all with the one brush.
To say they knew what was going on and kept silent, therefore are guilty is a moot point as we can only speculate, unless you are a priest?

Isn't that the point (bold), GDA?

That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

Which prompts the question as to why these otherwise decent, upstanding Clergy didn't speak out publicly? As I see it, there can be only one reason, namely that they witnessed how the Church, right up to the very top, was so much more concerned for its own reputation than its morality, that it suppressed, denied, colluded with and even facilitated the continuance of this abuse.

And therefore individual non-abusing Clergy concluded that to speak out, and thereby risk besmirching the reputation of the Church publicly, would make no great difference, other than to harm their own personal chances of advancement within the Church.

And that is why this scandal is so grievous - it is not just a case of "a few bad apples spoiling the barrel etc". Rather, that argument simply no longer applies, since the institution itself  has been conclusively demonstrated to be inherently corrupt at every level, in very many Dioceses, in very many Countries, over decades.

Worse still, even now after the stench of corruption has escaped into the wider world, the reaction of the institution is still to deny, evade, deflect, cover-up and obfuscate, when the only acceptable reaction should encompass genuine repentance, a plea for forgiveness and a determination to do everything possible to purge the Church of this evil, so that it could never occur again.

Worst of all (imo), is that no-one, whether Believer or Heathen, can have any real confidence that any of that last will occur... 

Hi EG, you've raised a few points I'd like to comment on.


That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

I guess the fact is that most of them were not and many others failed to accept the reality when they became aware that some of their colleagues were abusive.
The Church was and still is organised along very strictly hierarchical lines. The same could be said about Irish society in general up to comparatively recent times.
The guard was expected to follow his sergeant's instructions to the letter, without pausing to ask a question or to raise an objection. The teacher in the classroom lived in fear of the school inspector and the curate didn't give any back chat to the parish priest. The PP in turn danced to his bishop's tune and so on and on...
The same top down system of authority applies to religious congregations as well. On a much lighter note, I often think of the way the Sisters of Mercy operated at one time  in my native town.
The Mother Superior of the local convent was Assistant Matron at the local hospital, while the Matron, in turn, was her assistant at the convent. Those two ladies hated each other and, as their roles switched twice daily, stories of what each made the other do while she had the whip hand, are still remembered in the area.
Authority was all. Period.
During the course of my career as a Primary schoolteacher I was in regular contact with Christian Brothers, some of whom were in the same line of work. I also met Patrician and Marist Brothers from time to time.
All of them shared a common trait; a defining characteristic. I never thought of this until recently but, to a man, they were on their guard whenever a fellow member of their congregation was present.
Life in their monasteries /community houses or wherever they lived must have been extremely stressful at the best of times!
It seems that all were afraid that colleagues might carry tales back to the Boss. Many of the class teachers I met would have spent periods working in Industrial Schools. It turns out that some were active child abusers. Neither I nor lay teachers who taught alongside them ever suspected this.
The religious authorities had one very effective way to keep their underlings in check. They made sure those who left would find it almost impossible to pick up a worthwhile job in the outside world.
For starters, those who left would be outcasts in their own neighbourhoods---bringing shame on the family's good name etc.
Also, they would be totally unsuited for any sort of secular work. Their overlords saw to that. People who take up teaching have to spend a probationary period of two years before they can secure a permanent post.  (Pension rights, holiday pay, order of seniority of the staff etc.)
But for brothers and nuns, the situation was a bit more complicated than that. (Still is, AFAIK.)
Lay teachers generally gain their first and second years diplomas in, naturally enough, their first and second years of teaching.
Not so with the religious brigade. The holding of the Second Diploma examination (Inspectorial visit) can be delayed for years.
Their superiors decide the timing; invariably, the educational authorities will agree.
By the time some of those unqualified teachers gain their second diploma, they will have become so isolated from the real world that leaving their order is no longer a viable option.

Now, I am not attempting to defend the behaviour of non-abusive priests and religious who won't speak up now—the time for Omerta, the Irish version, is over. But all were 'groomed' in a fashion also. Their superiors saw to that and they in their time underwent the same indoctrination process.
It's time for this circle of evil to be broken.

LnP, great post, very interesting. Ta

[theskull1]

Yes an interesting perspective of a very ugly world