Clerical abuse!

[5 Sams]

Once the arrests started in News International, Rupert Murdock made it over to give testimony to an MPs Committee hearing (weak as it was).

Any sign of Rome sending senior representatives over, 17 years after Brendan Smith?

They cant even find the Bishop of Cloyne FFS.

[theskull1]

"The numbers of members of the clergy who have been in touch in the last few days to say it is about time somebody spoke out about these matters in a situation like you are, has astounded me."
Mr Kenny received a standing ovation after he finished delivering the annual lecture at the opening session of the summer school.

Imagine the changes that might have occurred if these all these "morally decent" clergy who have sat in collective silence for decades had had the moral conviction to speak out 20 years ago?

They must have enjoyed all those years of cool calm meditative reflection whilst they did nothing in all that time.

[Tubberman]

The Vatican with recalled the Papal Nuncio.
I don't know a lot about diplomatic protocol, but I presume this is a pretty significant development.

The Papal Nuncio has been recalled to Rome in the wake of the publication of the Cloyne report.

The report accused the Vatican of being "entirely unhelpful" to Irish bishops in their attempts to put proper child safeguarding procedures in place.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny made a strong speech in the Dáil last week condemning the response of the Vatican to the mismanagement and the implementation of child safety guidelines by Cloyne clerical authorities.

The Taoiseach said last night he had received 2,500 messages of support from around the world after his verbal attack on the Vatican.

Mr Kenny said many of the messages of goodwill came from Catholic priests.

The Government is still waiting for a response from the Vatican after the Taoiseach accused the Catholic Church hierarchy of dysfunction, disconnection and elitism.

Mr Kenny said the Vatican had attempted to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign democratic Republic.

However, the Taoiseach said support for his remarks has been "overwhelming".

Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/vatican-recalls-irelands-papal-nuncio-514121.html#ixzz1T6sBJJLd

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

"The numbers of members of the clergy who have been in touch in the last few days to say it is about time somebody spoke out about these matters in a situation like you are, has astounded me."
Mr Kenny received a standing ovation after he finished delivering the annual lecture at the opening session of the summer school.

Imagine the changes that might have occurred if these all these "morally decent" clergy who have sat in collective silence for decades had had the moral conviction to speak out 20 years ago?

They must have enjoyed all those years of cool calm meditative reflection whilst they did nothing in all that time.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, eh Skull.

If as some posters here imply, all members of the Church are guilty, whether through commission,omission, neglect or collusion, should the same criteria not be applied to the state, and, as they are citizens of that state, also apply to them. There are no clean hands here, and some of you atheists and church bashers should remember that

+1

Most of the people in Gaoth Dobhair had an idea about Fr Greene and did feck all about it - they guilty?
I remember as a young lad being down in the Ostan swimming pool and someone saying "Fr Greenes coming", it was a race for the towels!!

[theskull1]

"The numbers of members of the clergy who have been in touch in the last few days to say it is about time somebody spoke out about these matters in a situation like you are, has astounded me."
Mr Kenny received a standing ovation after he finished delivering the annual lecture at the opening session of the summer school.

Imagine the changes that might have occurred if these all these "morally decent" clergy who have sat in collective silence for decades had had the moral conviction to speak out 20 years ago?

They must have enjoyed all those years of cool calm meditative reflection whilst they did nothing in all that time.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, eh Skull.

Ermmm....Damned if they do You've lost me. Our supposed moral guardians (the clergy) done nothing apart from take instruction from their masters over the past 20 years. And that involved them sitting in silience on this issue for years barr the odd well scripted letter from on high when the powers that be felt they needed to. Is that not about right

If as some posters here imply, all members of the Church are guilty, whether through commission,omission, neglect or collusion, should the same criteria not be applied to the state, and, as they are citizens of that state, also apply to them. There are no clean hands here, and some of you atheists and church bashers should remember that

+1

Most of the people in Gaoth Dobhair had an idea about Fr Greene and did feck all about it - they guilty?

Yes if what youre saying is true, I'd say there many an elderly adult who carries massive guilt over not speaking out. The CC had such an stranglehold on these communities people lost their moral compasses. No?
Maintain your faith is one thing. Following a church which is lead by morally corrupt individuals whilst being an easy get out for you and many others is still a separate issue to your faith is it not?

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

"The numbers of members of the clergy who have been in touch in the last few days to say it is about time somebody spoke out about these matters in a situation like you are, has astounded me."
Mr Kenny received a standing ovation after he finished delivering the annual lecture at the opening session of the summer school.

Imagine the changes that might have occurred if these all these "morally decent" clergy who have sat in collective silence for decades had had the moral conviction to speak out 20 years ago?

They must have enjoyed all those years of cool calm meditative reflection whilst they did nothing in all that time.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, eh Skull.

Ermmm....Damned if they do You've lost me. Our supposed moral guardians (the clergy) done nothing apart from take instruction from their masters over the past 20 years. And that involved them sitting in silience on this issue for years barr the odd well scripted letter from on high when the powers that be felt they needed to. Is that not about right

If as some posters here imply, all members of the Church are guilty, whether through commission,omission, neglect or collusion, should the same criteria not be applied to the state, and, as they are citizens of that state, also apply to them. There are no clean hands here, and some of you atheists and church bashers should remember that

+1

Most of the people in Gaoth Dobhair had an idea about Fr Greene and did feck all about it - they guilty?

Yes if what youre saying is true, I'd say there many an elderly adult who carries massive guilt over not speaking out. The CC had such an stranglehold on these communities people lost their moral compasses. No?
Maintain your faith is one thing. Following a church which is lead by morally corrupt individuals whilst being an easy get out for you and many others is still a separate issue to your faith is it not?

Why would you doubt the veracity of what I say?
I have known dozens of Priests and only one was involved in clerical abuse (raping children to put it another way). The other priests almost to a man made massive positive differences to the communities they ministered, in some cases they changed those communities forever, for the better.
The clergy who were involved in abuse should be outted and punished to the full letter of the law, but wether you like it or not, this was only a tiny percentage of the total clergy in Ireland, you are tarring all with the one brush.
To say they knew what was going on and kept silent, therefore are guilty is a moot point as we can only speculate, unless you are a priest?

[BarryBreensBandage]

With regards to who is to blame, am I right in saying the following?

That in the Ferns cases, a mother went to a priest regarding the abuse her son was suffering. The priest went with the complaint to the guards, who passed it to their sergeant, who in turn reported it to Dublin.
After this the trail went cold.

If this is correct, then it would suggest that the state has been included in the whole awful chapter, not abuse itself, but the cover-up side of things.

I suppose how could the two not be intertwined, taking into account the church's role in the constitution of Ireland.

[Dougal Maguire]

The Vatican with recalled the Papal Nuncio.
I don't know a lot about diplomatic protocol, but I presume this is a pretty significant development.

The Papal Nuncio has been recalled to Rome in the wake of the publication of the Cloyne report.

The report accused the Vatican of being "entirely unhelpful" to Irish bishops in their attempts to put proper child safeguarding procedures in place.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny made a strong speech in the Dáil last week condemning the response of the Vatican to the mismanagement and the implementation of child safety guidelines by Cloyne clerical authorities.

The Taoiseach said last night he had received 2,500 messages of support from around the world after his verbal attack on the Vatican.

Mr Kenny said many of the messages of goodwill came from Catholic priests.

The Government is still waiting for a response from the Vatican after the Taoiseach accused the Catholic Church hierarchy of dysfunction, disconnection and elitism.

Mr Kenny said the Vatican had attempted to frustrate an inquiry in a sovereign democratic Republic.

However, the Taoiseach said support for his remarks has been "overwhelming".

Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/vatican-recalls-irelands-papal-nuncio-514121.html#ixzz1T6sBJJLd

I'll not sleep a wink tonight

[muppet]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/vatican-hits-out-at-excessive-reactions-after-cloyne-report-514138.html

The Vatican spokesman said the principal aim of the recall was to make it easier for its Secretary of State and other officials to prepare the Holy See's official response to the Government in the wake of the Cloyne report into the mishandling of child sex abuse claims.

"The recall of the Nuncio, being a measure verily adopted by the Holy See, denotes the seriousness of the situation and the Holy See's desire to face it objectively and determinately," he said.

"Nor does it exclude some degree of surprise and disappointment at certain excessive reactions."

Fr Benedettini added: "The recall of the Nuncio should be interpreted as an expression of the desire of the Holy See for serious and effective collaboration with the (Irish) Government."

Excessive reactions?

There is not even the slightest hint of remorse in the above. Telling yer man to come to Rome is supposed to show us they mean business this time but we are excessive and out of order for giving out about the 14 year delay.

There are threads here expecting our Government to reverse the habits of a lifetime and stand up to people we owe billions to. It is hard to expect that sort of backbone when we can't even stand up to an organisation who shelter people who molested Irish children and who give us the two fingers when we demand their co-operation.

[Lar Naparka]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/vatican-hits-out-at-excessive-reactions-after-cloyne-report-514138.html

The Vatican spokesman said the principal aim of the recall was to make it easier for its Secretary of State and other officials to prepare the Holy See's official response to the Government in the wake of the Cloyne report into the mishandling of child sex abuse claims.

"The recall of the Nuncio, being a measure verily adopted by the Holy See, denotes the seriousness of the situation and the Holy See's desire to face it objectively and determinately," he said.

"Nor does it exclude some degree of surprise and disappointment at certain excessive reactions."

Fr Benedettini added: "The recall of the Nuncio should be interpreted as an expression of the desire of the Holy See for serious and effective collaboration with the (Irish) Government."

Excessive reactions?

There is not even the slightest hint of remorse in the above. Telling yer man to come to Rome is supposed to show us they mean business this time but we are excessive and out of order for giving out about the 14 year delay.

There are threads here expecting our Government to reverse the habits of a lifetime and stand up to people we owe billions to. It is hard to expect that sort of backbone when we can't even stand up to an organisation who shelter people who molested Irish children and who give us the two fingers when we demand their co-operation.

I think that every passing day makes whatever "Rome and the Bishops" may have to say increasingly irrelevant. "Rome and the bishops" is a phrase I heard many times during the course of a conversation I held with a 75 years old priest yesterday.
I had gone to a town in rural Cavan to attend a funeral service.
The local community turned out in force.
On the hottest day of the year, Protestant, Catholic and every people of every colour and creed were there to pay their respects to the deceased and to demonstrate their support for his family. The heat in the church was stifling and the service was over two hours long.  Several hundred had to wait outside and they suffered as much as their friends and neighbours inside.
Not a single individual left the church grounds while the ceremony was being conducted.
I know this because I had to go and sit in my car with the engine running and the air conditioning turned on. Plenty of others had to do the same thing but everybody stayed on to the end.
It seemed that the Catholic Church is alive and well in this community.
However, the three priests who officiated were geriatrics. The youngest told me he was more than 75 years old when I got talking to him after the burial had taken place and the crowds began to leave the grounds. The other two had tottered into the sacristy to throw of their ceremonial trappings and to collapse onto the nearest chairs. My new found friend had lasted the course with difficulty and was only too glad of a helping hand as I had stepped forward and offered him one to guide him back into the church and the merciful shade.
The poor man was heartbroken not only from the heat but also because he knew full well that the old order was changing at a frightening speed. He would have attended the funeral services in any event—a member of his congregation had died suddenly and he wanted to do his duty.
But he had to officiate simply because there was no younger and fitter priest available to deputise for him. Like the numbers attending church services, there are fewer and fewer of them around.
"Rome and the bishops" have lost contact with the people and the results are to be seen all around him. During the course of our ten minute walk, those buckos got some abuse in a rich Cavan brogue!
As an afterthought when he was back in the shade and I had turned to leave him, he added; "Sure they are oul' codgers like myself. Maybe we do need a change."
Maybe we do indeed and maybe it won't make much difference whether we have change or not.

[Evil Genius]

I have known dozens of Priests and only one was involved in clerical abuse (raping children to put it another way). The other priests almost to a man made massive positive differences to the communities they ministered, in some cases they changed those communities forever, for the better.
The clergy who were involved in abuse should be outted and punished to the full letter of the law, but wether you like it or not, this was only a tiny percentage of the total clergy in Ireland, you are tarring all with the one brush.
To say they knew what was going on and kept silent, therefore are guilty is a moot point as we can only speculate, unless you are a priest?

Isn't that the point (bold), GDA?

That is, if you (and other members of the Laity) were aware of these abusive Priests, then one might expect the other (non-abusing) Clergy also to have been aware - as successive Inquiries prove.

Which prompts the question as to why these otherwise decent, upstanding Clergy didn't speak out publicly? As I see it, there can be only one reason, namely that they witnessed how the Church, right up to the very top, was so much more concerned for its own reputation than its morality, that it suppressed, denied, colluded with and even facilitated the continuance of this abuse.

And therefore individual non-abusing Clergy concluded that to speak out, and thereby risk besmirching the reputation of the Church publicly, would make no great difference, other than to harm their own personal chances of advancement within the Church.

And that is why this scandal is so grievous - it is not just a case of "a few bad apples spoiling the barrel etc". Rather, that argument simply no longer applies, since the institution itself  has been conclusively demonstrated to be inherently corrupt at every level, in very many Dioceses, in very many Countries, over decades.

Worse still, even now after the stench of corruption has escaped into the wider world, the reaction of the institution is still to deny, evade, deflect, cover-up and obfuscate, when the only acceptable reaction should encompass genuine repentance, a plea for forgiveness and a determination to do everything possible to purge the Church of this evil, so that it could never occur again.

Worst of all (imo), is that no-one, whether Believer or Heathen, can have any real confidence that any of that last will occur... 

[Maguire01]

On the hottest day of the year, Protestant, Catholic and every people of every colour and creed were there to pay their respects to the deceased and to demonstrate their support for his family. The heat in the church was stifling and the service was over two hours long.  Several hundred had to wait outside and they suffered as much as their friends and neighbours inside.
Not a single individual left the church grounds while the ceremony was being conducted.

It seemed that the Catholic Church is alive and well in this community.

Or maybe people attended as a mark of respect for the deceased? I don't see this as any indication of the health of the church. I know plenty of people who would have no religious beliefs but would still attend the funeral of a friend or family member. And they'd stay to the end.

[Main Street]

Why would you doubt the veracity of what I say?
I have known dozens of Priests and only one was involved in clerical abuse (raping children to put it another way). The other priests almost to a man made massive positive differences to the communities they ministered, in some cases they changed those communities forever, for the better.
The clergy who were involved in abuse should be outted and punished to the full letter of the law, but wether you like it or not, this was only a tiny percentage of the total clergy in Ireland, you are tarring all with the one brush.
To say they knew what was going on and kept silent, therefore are guilty is a moot point as we can only speculate, unless you are a priest?

I don't doubt the veracity of what you say but that's a separate issue. The relevant overwhelming evidence points to that most of  hierarchy, from Bishops upwards to the top of the Vatican, were well aware of what went on. The criminal policy coordinated from the Vatican was carried out with a disciplined vigor, an intense effort right up to a few years ago to cover up the crimes (perpetuating the abuses), stonewalling police investigations and denying the abused the right of moral/legal recourse.

[Lar Naparka]

On the hottest day of the year, Protestant, Catholic and every people of every colour and creed were there to pay their respects to the deceased and to demonstrate their support for his family. The heat in the church was stifling and the service was over two hours long.  Several hundred had to wait outside and they suffered as much as their friends and neighbours inside.
Not a single individual left the church grounds while the ceremony was being conducted.

It seemed that the Catholic Church is alive and well in this community.

Or maybe people attended as a mark of respect for the deceased? I don't see this as any indication of the health of the church. I know plenty of people who would have no religious beliefs but would still attend the funeral of a friend or family member. And they'd stay to the end.

Exactly.
Notice that I began the sentence you bolded with "It seemed.."

But the reality is very different; the presence of three old priests doddering about the place is evidence of that. I'm not sure where the others were brought in from but the man I spoke to was the only one from the parish.
This decent man is heartbroken by the fact that most of those who attended the church service won't show their faces in a church again until another funeral or wedding ceremony is held.
The drop off in priests' numbers is more than matched by the decline of church-going parishioners and this rural parish just mirrors the reality of what is happening throughout the land.

[Eamonnca1]

This decent man is heartbroken by the fact that most of those who attended the church service won't show their faces in a church again until another funeral or wedding ceremony is held.
The drop off in priests' numbers is more than matched by the decline of church-going parishioners and this rural parish just mirrors the reality of what is happening throughout the land.

So the church in that community is not so alive and well after all then. Is it a similar picture around the country?  I remember there being one mass on a Saturday night and about two on a Sunday morning in each of the two chapels in my old parish and they'd both be full.  I hear that nowadays they have one in one church on the Saturday night and one in the other church the following morning and neither is filled.