Clerical abuse!

[pintsofguinness]

I dont think he's being sarcastic

[mylestheslasher]

I dont think he's being sarcastic

Neither do I. Playing the ball and not the man is all. You could put all the evidence in the world in front of a lad like him and he'll claim some anti catholic conspiracy. Some people are just to entrenched in their views to listen to reason.

[Pangurban]

I am here Myles, lets see the conclusive evidence linking the Pope to a cover up. Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up, many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution. My problem lies with the fact that people like you and others on this Board are using the current scandal to attack and diminish the whole Church, rather than the individuals who failed to live up too their responsibilities. The Church is both Human and Divine, the human part by its very nature will always be found wanting. That is no reason to attack the majority of good clerics and people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, and it does not justify trial by media based on emotion rather than evidence

[pintsofguinness]

I am here Myles, lets see the conclusive evidence linking the Pope to a cover up. Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up, many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution. My problem lies with the fact that people like you and others on this Board are using the current scandal to attack and diminish the whole Church, rather than the individuals who failed to live up too their responsibilities. The Church is both Human and Divine, the human part by its very nature will always be found wanting. That is no reason to attack the majority of good clerics and people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, and it does not justify trial by media based on emotion rather than evidence

no one is doing that.

[Pangurban]

Get real Pints, read some of the comments on this and other related threads and you will see there are contributors with an agenda, too attack any manifestation of religion and catholicism in particular. They are fuelled by their own blind hatred, and devoid of any interest in victims,facts,truth or justice.

[theskull1]

I am here Myles, lets see the conclusive evidence linking the Pope to a cover up. Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up, many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution.

There is EVERY chance that claiming gross incompeditence at Vatican level is just a convenient alibi Pangur. You cannot make that statement and stand over it. Some of us want proper disclosure and investigation before conclusions can be made. In time it is my belief that the reasons and motivations for the cover up will go right to the top.

[pintsofguinness]

Get real Pints, read some of the comments on this and other related threads and you will see there are contributors with an agenda, too attack any manifestation of religion and catholicism in particular. They are fuelled by their own blind hatred, and devoid of any interest in victims,facts,truth or justice.

I don't think there's very many doing that and even if there are people like that it really takes nothing away from the fact that the church is behaving ridiculously and are doing a great job of destroying it themselves!

[Tony Baloney]

Get real Pints, read some of the comments on this and other related threads and you will see there are contributors with an agenda, too attack any manifestation of religion and catholicism in particular. They are fuelled by their own blind hatred, and devoid of any interest in victims,facts,truth or justice.

Sounds like an accurate description of the Catholic Church. I would wager that most of these "haters" you refer to were/are Catholics amd therefore would have no reason to hate the Church for any reason than it's sinister deeds of some members of the clergy, and some would argue even more sinister coverup of these deeds. A coverup which appears to stretch from the Pope (past and present) down to local clergymen in Ireland.

Tell us why people are wrong to want answers, accountabilty, men behind bars, men defrocked, public inquiries, grovelling apologies? None of these will mend the lives of the thousands of people who were abused by members of the Catholic Church and in many cases with the full knowledge of their peers and superiors. The Church is not the buildings or the trappings of wealth the Catholic Church holds so dear. The Church is the people. It's plain for the world to see what the Catholic Church thought, and continues to think, of the people in it's pastoral care.

[pintsofguinness]

Get real Pints, read some of the comments on this and other related threads and you will see there are contributors with an agenda, too attack any manifestation of religion and catholicism in particular. They are fuelled by their own blind hatred, and devoid of any interest in victims,facts,truth or justice.

Sounds like an accurate description of the Catholic Church. I would wager that most of these "haters" you refer to were/are Catholics amd therefore would have no reason to hate the Church for any reason than it's sinister deeds of some members of the clergy, and some would argue even more sinister coverup of these deeds. A coverup which appears to stretch from the Pope (past and present) down to local clergymen in Ireland.

Tell us why people are wrong to want answers, accountabilty, men behind bars, men defrocked, public inquiries, grovelling apologies? None of these will mend the lives of the thousands of people who were abused by members of the Catholic Church and in many cases with the full knowledge of their peers and superiors. The Church is not the buildings or the trappings of wealth the Catholic Church holds so dear. The Church is the people. It's plain for the world to see what the Catholic Church thought, and continues to think, of the people in it's pastoral care.

That's a question I'd love to hear the answer to from the apologists here, particularly the few who have never told us what they think and just proceed to have digs at those who are outraged as if there was something wrong with us for being angry!

[Rufus T Firefly]

Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up, many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution. My problem lies with the fact that people like you and others on this Board are using the current scandal to attack and diminish the whole Church, rather than the individuals who failed to live up too their responsibilities. The Church is both Human and Divine, the human part by its very nature will always be found wanting. That is no reason to attack the majority of good clerics and people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, and it does not justify trial by media based on emotion rather than evidence

Very well said. Excellent post. I doff my cap.

And if I might add, what I find particularly difficult to accept is the sneering manner in which a lot of these judgements and generalisations are handed down. 

[theskull1]

Very well said. Excellent post. I doff my cap.

And if I might add, what I find particularly difficult to accept is the sneering manner in which a lot of these judgements and generalisations are handed down.

Not living in the real world are we Rufus? Maybe you and Pangur could answer Tony's questions above just to help us all understand why you feel the need to protect the church from scrutiny

[orangeman]

Tearful Pope says sorry to clerical abuse victims


During his visit to Malta yesterday, the Pontiff looked exhausted as he momentarily fell asleep during Mass


THE Pope bowed to intense pressure yesterday and met a group of eight clerical sex abuse victims during his visit to Malta.

He expressed his "shame and sorrow" over what the men had suffered and insisted that the Catholic Church was doing "all in its power" to investigate similar allegations around the world.

The men, who claim they endured years of sexual abuse by Catholic priests at an orphanage on the island, said the Pope had tears in his eyes when he apologised to them for their ordeals.
The Pontiff (83) met the men in private at the residence of the papal nuncio, or Vatican ambassador, in Malta's historic capital, Valletta.

It represented the largest group of clerical sex abuse victims he has met, having encountered five American victims in Washington in April 2008 and five in Australia a few months later.

"He was deeply moved by their stories and expressed his shame and sorrow over what victims and their families have suffered," the Vatican said in a statement.

"He prayed with them and assured them that the church is doing, and will continue to do, all in its power to investigate allegations, to bring to justice those responsible for abuse and to implement effective measures designed to safeguard young people in the future."

The Vatican offered no further details of what measures would be implemented. Victims' advocacy groups have demanded that the Vatican take concrete steps to protect children and remove abusive priests, saying the Pope's expressions to date of solidarity and shame were meaningless unless actual action is taken.

A total of 10 Maltese men have alleged that priests molested them every day in the dormitory they shared at St Joseph Home orphanage between 1982 and 1990. Court proceedings have started against three priests, but the victims complain that the process is moving "at a snail's pace". A fourth accused priest has fled to Italy.

Joseph Magro (38) said: "It was a very emotional meeting. We were crying, the bishops were crying and the Pope had tears in his eyes. It is still very difficult for me, but I'm now at peace with the church."

He said the men received a call yesterday morning to come to the embassy and that the Pope spent a few minutes with each one of them.

A second victim, who wanted to be identified only as 'Emanuel', said: "The Pope was only in Malta for 26 hours and we really appreciated that he gave us half-an-hour of his time. But we will still fight in the courts for justice. A lot of Maltese people think we are only doing this to get money. We don't want money, we want justice. We don't want other people in the future to be hurt like we were."

Lawrence Grech, who led efforts to arrange the encounter, said the Pope told each of the men: "I am very proud of you for having come forward to tell your story."

- Nick Squires in Valletta

Irish Independent

[Main Street]

I am here Myles, lets see the conclusive evidence linking the Pope to a cover up.

Yes everything leads to the CDF and everything coming out of the CDF was concerned with covering interests of the Church.

Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up,

On the contrary, they were quite competent in dealing with supressing the sex scandals via the canon law advocates.
That was Vatican policy.

many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution.

It is the 'proven beyond doubt' institutional cover up that stains the church. A cover up equal if not greater than the crime of those abusers who are convenient scapegoats.

My problem lies with the fact that people like you and others on this Board are using the current scandal to attack and diminish the whole Church, rather than the individuals who failed to live up too their responsibilities.

I think your problem either lies with your ability to gloss over evidence of proven Church institutional cover ups or your inability to to regard a cover-up as a crime.

The Church is both Human and Divine, the human part by its very nature will always be found wanting.

And the divinity of the Church is your belief. Do you tolerate people who don't share your beliefs? can you sincerely respect people who have other beliefs?

That is no reason to attack the majority of good clerics and people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, and it does not justify trial by media based on emotion rather than evidence

I suggest you read the well documented reports of the sex abuse in Ireland and the USA.
Already in the USA, the Bishops as one voice have accepted that the whole Church in the USA was guilty of an prolonged and sustained institutionalised cover up and the institutionalised cover up was a despicable crime.

[The Iceman]

I am here Myles, lets see the conclusive evidence linking the Pope to a cover up. Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up, many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution. My problem lies with the fact that people like you and others on this Board are using the current scandal to attack and diminish the whole Church, rather than the individuals who failed to live up too their responsibilities. The Church is both Human and Divine, the human part by its very nature will always be found wanting. That is no reason to attack the majority of good clerics and people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, and it does not justify trial by media based on emotion rather than evidence

Excellent post!

Pints you call for the "apologists" to answer you but the majority of people on both sides have made it clear how they feel and condemned the acts of abuse and the cover up.  There are a lot of people on here with their own agenda and this topic and thread highlights that even more.  Their feelings towards the Catholic Church have been apparent for the years I have frequented this board.

[johnneycool]

I am here Myles, lets see the conclusive evidence linking the Pope to a cover up. Yes the Vatican were grossly incompetent, their responses to the scandal were immature and a PR balls-up, many individuals within the Church acted criminally and where this is proved there should be severe retribution. My problem lies with the fact that people like you and others on this Board are using the current scandal to attack and diminish the whole Church, rather than the individuals who failed to live up too their responsibilities. The Church is both Human and Divine, the human part by its very nature will always be found wanting. That is no reason to attack the majority of good clerics and people who are doing their best in difficult circumstances, and it does not justify trial by media based on emotion rather than evidence

Is 'the Vatican' one of these faceless entities where the 'process' is at fault, not any individual?

I'll agree on the second point highlighted but unless they turn out the criminals the church is and has harboured, sometimes using diplomatic immunity then they've a load of road to travel.