Clerical abuse!

[nifan]

I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.

Just out of curiosity - where does your "all that goes with that" come from - the bible? the current doctrine of the catholic church?

Do you believe in all the doctrine of the catholic church, and if so how do you square it away when that doctrine changes?

[longrunsthefox]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

And I admitted that

Jees! you're a real one true and only church fundamentalist coming out with that dung. I believe in Jesus and not the sacraments. Are you going to forbid me from doing that 

Fox you can call it dung all you like.  I have never made any secrets about my position on it all.  I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.  This isn't Woolworths pick and mix or a buffet style lunch at Pizza Hut as far as I am concerned.

I don't know why I have to be labeled a fundamentalist for believing in the Sacraments or standing up for my faith.  I don't believe everything I am doing is the right and only way to do things.  I won't, however, sit back and say nothing when a completely contradictory statement is put out there as the norm.  You can believe in Jesus all you like - if you're not Baptized its no good to you. It's really hard to not come across as a Protestant or evangelical when it comes to things like this but talk to any priest or religious and you'll hear the same (hopefully).

Thanks but I'll pass on that offer  Some craic the way the clergy and churches think they have  the monopoly on God.  Jesus would probably tear their palaces down.

[Rois]

Some craic the way the clergy and churches think they have  the monopoly on God. 

I'm interested in this - what do you mean? 

[muppet]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

And I admitted that

Jees! you're a real one true and only church fundamentalist coming out with that dung. I believe in Jesus and not the sacraments. Are you going to forbid me from doing that 

Fox you can call it dung all you like.  I have never made any secrets about my position on it all.  I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.  This isn't Woolworths pick and mix or a buffet style lunch at Pizza Hut as far as I am concerned.

I don't know why I have to be labeled a fundamentalist for believing in the Sacraments or standing up for my faith.  I don't believe everything I am doing is the right and only way to do things.  I won't, however, sit back and say nothing when a completely contradictory statement is put out there as the norm.  You can believe in Jesus all you like - if you're not Baptized its no good to you. It's really hard to not come across as a Protestant or evangelical when it comes to things like this but talk to any priest or religious and you'll hear the same (hopefully).

So in conclusion if people aren't as good as The Iceman 'it's no good to you'?

you live up to your name lad - stop putting words in my mouth
[/quote]

Actually you live up to my name better than I do.

You claimed to live by the bible, then claimed it was the most accurate document until it's deficiencies were shown to you. You have stopped commenting on the Pope since I pointed out the Donation of Constantine was a forgery. Remember Galileo lived under house arrest, at the behest of the then Pope, for daring to suggest that the earth went around the sun.

The final make up of the bible was only decided in the 4th Century. Hardly eyewitnesses.

[The Iceman]

Actually you live up to my name better than I do.

Thank you.

You claimed to live by the bible, then claimed it was the most accurate document until it's deficiencies were shown to you. You have stopped commenting on the Pope since I pointed out the Donation of Constantine was a forgery. Remember Galileo lived under house arrest, at the behest of the then Pope, for daring to suggest that the earth went around the sun.

I actually claimed that the Bible was accurate from a Bibliographic standpoint and I stand by that.
I didn't know I was supposed to keep commenting on The Donation of Constantine because you wanted me to.
What has Galileo got to do with anything?

The final make up of the bible was only decided in the 4th Century. Hardly eyewitnesses.

Muppet it is nearly impossible to have a conversation or discussion with you.  You jump from one thing to another.  Maybe stop being a muppet and take things seriously for half a second

[The Iceman]

I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.

Just out of curiosity - where does your "all that goes with that" come from - the bible? the current doctrine of the catholic church?

Do you believe in all the doctrine of the catholic church, and if so how do you square it away when that doctrine changes?

How often does the doctrine change nifan in one generation to have any bearing on my faith.  Going back to your protestant roots I see..... Heard them all before lad.  I have a lot of protestant friends and I've been through all the points of discussion with them -nothing new.

That comes from the Bible and the Church to answer your question.

[muppet]

Actually you live up to my name better than I do.

Thank you.

You claimed to live by the bible, then claimed it was the most accurate document until it's deficiencies were shown to you. You have stopped commenting on the Pope since I pointed out the Donation of Constantine was a forgery. Remember Galileo lived under house arrest, at the behest of the then Pope, for daring to suggest that the earth went around the sun.

I actually claimed that the Bible was accurate from a Bibliographic standpoint and I stand by that.
I didn't know I was supposed to keep commenting on The Donation of Constantine because you wanted me to.
What has Galileo got to do with anything?

The final make up of the bible was only decided in the 4th Century. Hardly eyewitnesses.

Muppet it is nearly impossible to have a conversation or discussion with you.  You jump from one thing to another.  Maybe stop being a muppet and take things seriously for half a second

I am being quite serious on this thread.

Your position in all of the above is extremely literal and totally inflexible. I raise different issues to point out why some fundamental beliefs don't stand up to modern or even historical scrutiny.

[longrunsthefox]

Some craic the way the clergy and churches think they have  the monopoly on God. 

I'm interested in this - what do you mean?

I mean the priests and bishops often talk of people losing faith by not going to church. I still have faith in God but don't go to church. They don't have the monopoly on God. Certainly I lost faith in the church. 

[Rois]

Absolutely fair enough but I'm not sure it's accurate to say they think they have a monopoly - the Church accepts that there are other non-Catholic faiths in existence that believe in the same God.   

[longrunsthefox]

Absolutely fair enough but I'm not sure it's accurate to say they think they have a monopoly - the Church accepts that there are other non-Catholic faiths in existence that believe in the same God.   

They also assume everyone who leaves the church has lost faith in God...

[nifan]

How often does the doctrine change nifan in one generation to have any bearing on my faith.  Going back to your protestant roots I see..... Heard them all before lad.  I have a lot of protestant friends and I've been through all the points of discussion with them -nothing new.

That comes from the Bible and the Church to answer your question.

I havent kept up to date on doctrine changes, but things like limbo being the obvious example given. You say you take everything, not pick and mix, but do you believe one day and not the next?

My protestant roots? I dont have any more belief in the strictures of any protestant church over those of the catholic church.

[longrunsthefox]

...aye and cremation for a Catholic was wrong until the price of land caused a problem     pic and mix alrite.

[Rois]

Absolutely fair enough but I'm not sure it's accurate to say they think they have a monopoly - the Church accepts that there are other non-Catholic faiths in existence that believe in the same God.   

They also assume everyone who leaves the church has lost faith in God...

Oh, and you know this because...
Come on LRTF, you can do better than sweeping general statements like your last two, give me some proper substance to deal with.  In what way has "their" monopoly and that last assumption you refer to manifested themselves?  Ritual condemnation of people who don't go to mass any more?  Regular rants about non-attenders burning in the fire of hell? 
I know you're not a practicing Catholic but your intolerance of those who are borders on bigotry at times.       

[muppet]

Absolutely fair enough but I'm not sure it's accurate to say they think they have a monopoly - the Church accepts that there are other non-Catholic faiths in existence that believe in the same God.   

They also assume everyone who leaves the church has lost faith in God...

Oh, and you know this because...
Come on LRTF, you can do better than sweeping general statements like your last two, give me some proper substance to deal with.  In what way has "their" monopoly and that last assumption you refer to manifested themselves?  Ritual condemnation of people who don't go to mass any more?  Regular rants about non-attenders burning in the fire of hell? 
I know you're not a practicing Catholic but your intolerance of those who are borders on bigotry at times.       

Matthew 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (King James Version)

[longrunsthefox]

Absolutely fair enough but I'm not sure it's accurate to say they think they have a monopoly - the Church accepts that there are other non-Catholic faiths in existence that believe in the same God.   

They also assume everyone who leaves the church has lost faith in God...

Oh, and you know this because...
Come on LRTF, you can do better than sweeping general statements like your last two, give me some proper substance to deal with.  In what way has "their" monopoly and that last assumption you refer to manifested themselves?  Ritual condemnation of people who don't go to mass any more?  Regular rants about non-attenders burning in the fire of hell? 
I know you're not a practicing Catholic but your intolerance of those who are borders on bigotry at times.       

OK Rois... you the man!  Show me one post where I have shown an intolerance of those who practice Catholicism. I have certainly hammered the hierarchy within the church for good reason but not those who practice their religion, which is their perogative.