Clerical abuse!

[orangeman]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

Made an example of them ? Seriously do you think they'll be bothered about having to take a plane load of boys over to Rome ?

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

Made an example of them ? Seriously do you think they'll be bothered about having to take a plane load of boys over to Rome ?

Has it ever happened before? No.
Do the Irish clergy hierarchy have to hold their hands up and admit responsibility for a cover up. - Yes
Does the spiritual leader of over 1 billion people have to apologise for their actions - No, I think he has done enough.

[pintsofguinness]

Delusional is the word. 

And I use to wonder how they were able to get away with it and cover it up.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Delusional is the word. 

And I use to wonder how they were able to get away with it and cover it up.

POG I used to think you were just a grumpy aul hoor, now I realise your just a WUM. 

[pintsofguinness]

and I think you're brainwashed, just like people where years ago.

[muppet]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

Made an example of them ? Seriously do you think they'll be bothered about having to take a plane load of boys over to Rome ?

Has it ever happened before? No.
Do the Irish clergy hierarchy have to hold their hands up and admit responsibility for a cover up. - Yes
Does the spiritual leader of over 1 billion people have to apologise for their actions - No, I think he has done enough.

I don't always agree with Pints but I couldn't agree more in this case.

I respect peoples right to be devout followers of any religion but no one can be above scrutiny, purely because of an exalted position, when the crime is abuse of children.

[Main Street]

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

IMO it isn't about repeating apologies ad infinitum, nothing more on that level will ease any more pain.
I was curious to see the Vatican statement to read of some substance behind the apologies.
The Vatican going on about the 'weakening of faith as a significant contributing factor in the phenomenon of the sexual abuse of minors', rings similar to the Immortalists when one of their leaders died a mortal death some years ago. They claimed he had lost his faith shortly before his death.

I doubt if there will be any research that will find a morsel of hidden potential in the Vatican's wild guess as to the cause of the sexual abuse of minors, but can we totally discount the devious Satan working in mysterious ways to weaken the faith?

[turk]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

They got flown over to Rome for dinner? That will teach them!!

[ardmhachaabu]

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

IMO it isn't about repeating apologies ad infinitum, nothing more on that level will ease any more pain.
I was curious to see the Vatican statement to read of some substance behind the apologies.
The Vatican going on about the 'weakening of faith as a significant contributing factor in the phenomenon of the sexual abuse of minors', rings similar to the Immortalists when one of their leaders died a mortal death some years ago. They claimed he had lost his faith shortly before his death.

I doubt if there will be any research that will find a morsel of hidden potential in the Vatican's wild guess as to the cause of the sexual abuse of minors, but can we totally discount the devious Satan working in mysterious ways to weaken the faith?

There was a letter read out today at Mass from Bishop Treanor which indicated that the Pope isn't finished with this issue and will be releasing a statement further down the line when he has had time to assess everything

[theskull1]

There was a letter read out today at Mass from Bishop Treanor which indicated that the Pope isn't finished with this issue and will be releasing a statement further down the line when he has had time to assess everything

I'm sure you and the other faithful can't understand why he might need to. He's done enough in your eyes

[ardmhachaabu]

There was a letter read out today at Mass from Bishop Treanor which indicated that the Pope isn't finished with this issue and will be releasing a statement further down the line when he has had time to assess everything

I'm sure you and the other faithful can't understand why he might need to. He's done enough in your eyes

I don't believe I have said that.  It's obviously very complicated for the Pope, he has lots of things to take into consideration so he is taking time and digesting before he says anything substantive on the issues.  If he is only using this form of words as a means of doing and saying nothing, then he would deserve all the criticism he gets.  What about giving the man a chance to do what he said he will do to the bishops?

[muppet]

There was a letter read out today at Mass from Bishop Treanor which indicated that the Pope isn't finished with this issue and will be releasing a statement further down the line when he has had time to assess everything

I'm sure you and the other faithful can't understand why he might need to. He's done enough in your eyes

I don't believe I have said that.  It's obviously very complicated for the Pope, he has lots of things to take into consideration so he is taking time and digesting before he says anything substantive on the issues.  If he is only using this form of words as a means of doing and saying nothing, then he would deserve all the criticism he gets.  What about giving the man a chance to do what he said he will do to the bishops?

He was the man in charge of the issue for most of the past 3 decades. How much more time does he need?

[Hurler on the Bitch]

I today joined the Free Presbyterian church. No questionable hard-ons in that establishment for sure.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Donagh,

There may have been a time that the state knew what was going on but in recent times the church (or elements) within have been very evasive in their dealings with the state.  Either that or the Ryan and Fern reports are very very misleading.

Not everybody (victims in particular) would acknowledge that the church have conceeded the principle.   

Do you think that Cardinal Brady or Diarmuid Martin will not be "happy until they see the Church stripped of everything"?  Because they are unequivocal in their view of what the relevant orders should do.

I think you are correct in a sense that there is a swell of opinion against the worst offenders like the Christian Brothers but I think you'll find that this is because of recent behaviour as much as sins of the past.

I personally would be happy with the following:

1.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by the Brady and the Pope ackowledging the events and the churchs culpability.  I would like them to have some victims groups (1 in 4 etc.)  review the wording to avoid usage of terms such as "occasional lapses" etc.. to describe abuse.

2.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by Taosisech Cowen and President McAleese.  It should also be reviewed as above.

3.  Removal of church management (of any denomination) of state-run institutions. 

4.  An issuing of papal decree with clear and unequivocal terms superceeding past decrees (Crimens Sollicitationis etc..) indicating that sexual abuse is handled as a crime by civil authorities.

5.  An audit of assets of religious orders named in Ryan report to determined their ability to pay compensation and set request compensation accordingly.  Legislation if necessary.

6. A criminal investiagation into the results of the Ryan report to prosecute sex offenders and those that aided them (within and without church).

7. If necessary a legal reform or constitional referendum on article 44 regarding rights of religious orders and property ensuring that the practice of placing property in trust is not abused to avoid compensation payments.

I don't any of the above will run the church into the ground.  In fact I suspect it would help grow their future numbers.

Here's a few suggestions that I had last May.  Don't think any of them have been acted on since.  For those interested the Fern's report and the judgement in the O'Gorman case make it quite clear that the Pope's distinction last week that this was a problem within Ireland is either incomplete or a lie.  This went all the way to him personally (in his previous role) and possibly all the way to Papal office.

But hopefully he used "misdirection" in his speech last week so at least he didn't commit a sin.

/Jim

[johnneycool]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.

Made an example of them ? Seriously do you think they'll be bothered about having to take a plane load of boys over to Rome ?

Has it ever happened before? No.
Do the Irish clergy hierarchy have to hold their hands up and admit responsibility for a cover up. - Yes
Does the spiritual leader of over 1 billion people have to apologise for their actions - No, I think he has done enough.

If the Irish bishops were following church policy in moving paedophiles around then yes the spiritual leader of over 1 billion people has to apolpgise.

IMO the reason you are not likely to hear any of the church hierarchy apologise or accept liability as that would leave them open to claims by the victims and if anything the Pope is more concerned by financial meltdown rather than anything to do with faith or morals.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/abuse-victims-accuse-archbishop-of-closing-ranks-446966.html