Clerical abuse!

[Hardy]

The substantive issue - why, in your opinion, did the Pope not address the fundamental findings of the inquiry - that the church systematically covered up the abuse and facilitated it by moving abusers around and continuing to allow them access to potential victims?

[The Iceman]

The substantive issue - why, in your opinion, did the Pope not address the fundamental findings of the inquiry - that the church systematically covered up the abuse and facilitated it by moving abusers around and continuing to allow them access to potential victims?

The beauty of a discussion forum hardy is anyone can pick and choose what discussions and what topics they want to respond to.
I responded to an unnecessary attack on the Pope.  I don't really care to have any more conversations with you on the posted topic as there will never be a right answer for you.

[Hardy]

It's a free country - nobody's forcing you to respond to anything. It just seems a strange form of discussion to accuse people of being ill informed and ignorant, proclaim yourself as the "corrector" of their misinformed opinions and then flatly refuse to answer a simple question as to your opinion on the substantive point of the thread. Seems more like proclamation than discussion to me.

[The Iceman]

It's a free country - nobody's forcing you to respond to anything. It just seems a strange form of discussion to accuse people of being ill informed and ignorant, proclaim yourself as the "corrector" of their misinformed opinions and then flatly refuse to answer a simple question as to your opinion on the substantive point of the thread. Seems more like proclamation than discussion to me.

The answer is he didn't have an answer.  I don't think anything he could ever have said would be enough.

[mylestheslasher]

I called the pope a clown and I stand by it. Anyones response to a days discussion on the rape and cover up of rape by senior church members is to come out with the waffle he did is a clown. He didn't address one thing the victims (the most important people in this affair I would have thought) had to say. In fact I could call him much worse than a clown. Clearly he is either too detached or too senile to know the idiocy of his remarks.

[mylestheslasher]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

[The Iceman]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

[ludermor]

So if nothing he can do will ever be enough then he should do nothing?

[pintsofguinness]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

There would be finding fault than there is now.

Bottom line is, the pope or the cardinals or the bishops didn't give a shit about the victims and they still don't. All they're concerned about is the Church.

[The Iceman]

There would be finding fault than there is now.

Bottom line is, the pope or the cardinals or the bishops didn't give a shit about the victims and they still don't. All they're concerned about is the Church.

I think that is too sweeping Pints.
Like it or not the Pope has to put the Church before the victims.  Its the sad reality.

[turk]

There would be finding fault than there is now.

Bottom line is, the pope or the cardinals or the bishops didn't give a shit about the victims and they still don't. All they're concerned about is the Church.

I think that is too sweeping Pints.
Like it or not the Pope has to put the Church before the victims.  Its the sad reality.

No he doesn't! The victims are members of the Church too! The Church is more than just those ordained as clergy.
The response of the Vatican to this disgusting affair has been pathetic

[mylestheslasher]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Well these are the type of things the victims want to hear. If the victims are happy then I would be prepared to say fair play to this pope (although I still have a problem with large aspects of the churches behaviour but credit would be given from me if it was due). But as you correctly put it, the pope cares more about his "organisation" than he does about raped children. However, if you believe that and still this is the guy you look to for moral and spiritual guidance then I think you have some serious problems.

[The Iceman]

There would be finding fault than there is now.

Bottom line is, the pope or the cardinals or the bishops didn't give a shit about the victims and they still don't. All they're concerned about is the Church.

I think that is too sweeping Pints.
Like it or not the Pope has to put the Church before the victims.  Its the sad reality.

No he doesn't! The victims are members of the Church too! The Church is more than just those ordained as clergy.
The response of the Vatican to this disgusting affair has been pathetic

When I say the Church I am not just talking about the Ordained Clergy - I'm talking about the parishioners and the infrastructure and everything that makes up the Church.
I am not disagreeing with you but I am being real.  Reality isn't always what we want but it's reality.  The reality of this matter is that the Pope has to put the Church first.

[pintsofguinness]

There would be finding fault than there is now.

Bottom line is, the pope or the cardinals or the bishops didn't give a shit about the victims and they still don't. All they're concerned about is the Church.

I think that is too sweeping Pints.
Like it or not the Pope has to put the Church before the victims.  Its the sad reality.

And there we have it.  That was the problem when allegations of abuse were being made, the church and it's reputation were put first. The Church is still being put first so have the church learned from any of this? Absolutely not, would the church do the same again and cover up sexual abuse, absolutely. Why hasnt the Pope apologised? because he's not sorry. The church comes first doesn't it. It's reputation comes before the lives of children.
Most right thinking people have a big problem with that.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Iceman, this is an example of what he could have said...

- I am very sorry for the abuse of children in the care of the catholic church in Ireland
- I am very sorry that the church covered up this abuse.
- I am very sorry that the church put its reputation ahead of innocent childrens well being.
- I am very sorry that the church did not help with the investigations and I intend to make sure this will now happen and that we will make all information available.
- I will ensure that steps will be taken so that this will not happen again. I will do this by instructing all clergy worldwide that they must report suspected abusers to the police first and foremost and provide any information they have.
- I undertake to visit Ireland and meet the victims and apologise in person.
- I undertake to have investigations into abuse in other countries.
- I intend to expel any member of the church that abused children or covered up the abuse of children.

Any decent person in his position would have no problem saying this but not the pope it would seem.

If he said all this would it be enough?
I don't think it would be.
I think you and others would still find fault in it no matter what.

Think Paisley and "Sack cloth and Ashes" - it will never be enough.
Lads you can go round in circles all you like it isn't going to change anything.
Personally I would like the Irish Bishops or the Primate to acknowledge the hurt and horrors of the past this weekend, I don't think that the Pope need do anymore, he's already made an example of them by calling them to Rome.