Clerical abuse!

[Lar Naparka]

Some of you may be aware of this story.

At the secondary school I went to, there were rumours that the principal (a priest) was doing things that he shouldnt. By that I mean asking boys about what they do with their girlfriends, and wandering through the dormitories at night.

I first heard these stories in third year when he became principal. If I heard about them, then I'm sure the teaching staff heard the stories as well.

Should the 60 or so teaching staff resign now for not reporting this?

Orior, I can readily accept your comparison of Fr Brady's actions with those of the teaching staff you refer to.
I'll say once more with feeling that commentators of a younger generation than mine cannot hope to understand the mindset of "ordinary" people of those times. (70s and before)

Orior's story has no comparison to Brady's actions. No resemblance at all. Facile in the extreme.

I take it you were not old enough to have an awareness of what passed for normal behaviour back in those days.
Believe me, the difference in so many ways between peoples' attitudes and beliefs of that period and ours would be impossible to describe.
I am giving Fr John B Brady every possible benefit of the doubt when I say I can understand his reluctance to rock the boat back in 1975.
I make no allowances whatever for Cardinal Sean Brady  who has been part of a tightly organised conspiracy to protect paedophile priests from being brought to justice and who failed to make any serious effort to prevent those who abused children going about their evil work.
If the Church leadership had not condoned and facilitated those acts I have no doubt the numbers of abusing priests and the number of children who were abused would have been far, far less.
The likes of Smyth and Greenan knew they had a licence to abuse and made full use of same. So did many hundreds of others. 
I repeat that I can accept that the then Fr Brady was doing his duty according to the convention of the times but I also say he has had ample opportunity since to make some sort of amends and he is making a damn bad job of doing so.
I would also add that Brady strikes me as a determined careerist who knew that rocking the boat would stop his progress up the promotion ladder

I had a somewhat similar secondary school experience to Orior when I spent several years in a boarding school in Roscommon back in the early 890s.
Right from the start I knew that the old bastard in charge had a terrible temper and a serious drink problem but I didn't know why older children warned the newcomers never to be sent to the infirmary on one's own if at all possible. Terrible things happened there if you did but we were never told what those things were.
Luckily for me, I was never sent there and I managed too avoid his fists while at that school but others were not so lucky.
I'm certain at least some of the teachers knew what this creature was up to but nobody intervened because there was little in the way of practical intervention that anyone could do.
Whistle blowing wouldn't suit the temper of the times and kids had to suffer in silence.

[ziggy90]

Guys a little perspective please. It is quite clear from the posts on here that a large number of you have lost faith in God and the Church, an understandable enough position in todays world. You need to ask yourself though have you lost faith because of the actions of of some senior clergy or are you retrospectively using this as an excuse...and I'm not making a judgement just asking the question. There are and have been many ordinary decent clerics who have demonstrated the true meaning of their vocation, many more than the number of abusers and cover ups. Fr Aidan troy, Fr Brian D'Arcy, Fr Pat McCafferty, Fr (Bishop) Edward Daly to name a few better known. At a guess I would say that a great number of those expressing these opinions are in their 20/30's even early 40's. It is impossible to judge the events of 30 years ago if you haven't lived through them. The bottom line is judged from here and now the actions of bishops and the Church in covering up abuse is totally unacceptable. But that's judged my the mores of today. At the time of these incidents a large number of factors came into play, but the one over riding factor was the institutional Church's requirement to keep up appearances. Leaders in the Church made decisions which were understandably human in trying to protect the institution whilst being totally unjustifiable on the level of any Christian Faith. The upshot of all this scandal is that many Bishops in Ireland and even more priests have come to realize the need for the Church to be open and protective of it's congregation, the penny hasn't dropped with Benedict yet and it probably will take his successor to move things on. i believe in God, not because of what I have been told, because I have faith. I believe in the traditions of the Catholic Church. I despise much of what Benedict stands for and consider him a poor choice as Pope not least because of his Nazi connections. I am a liberal Catholic like the vast majority, more Anglican in outlook than orthodox Catholic. I see the difference between that and a human fallible hierarchy. You can see parallels in all organizations whether religious or secular. The point I'm making is this, it is ok not to believe in God as this is a personal matter, it is ok to despise and criticize the Churches action on abuse. But don't use one to justify the other. If you truly believed in God you would understand that often he lets bad things happen. I am not in any way condoning coverups or the conservative nature of the Hierarchy. I believe that Christ would have no problem with married or women priests, he would have had no problem with Gay or Lesbian christians and sooner or later the Church will catch up. A bit like Gerry and Martin with the IRA you need to start change from with in. Anyone can stand outside and throw stones (or snowballs!). This doesn't really do justice to my position and no doubt many will attack aspects of the content, but I try to avoid longish posts.

Apples, that is a great post.

[mylestheslasher]

Guys a little perspective please. It is quite clear from the posts on here that a large number of you have lost faith in God and the Church, an understandable enough position in todays world. You need to ask yourself though have you lost faith because of the actions of of some senior clergy or are you retrospectively using this as an excuse...and I'm not making a judgement just asking the question. There are and have been many ordinary decent clerics who have demonstrated the true meaning of their vocation, many more than the number of abusers and cover ups. Fr Aidan troy, Fr Brian D'Arcy, Fr Pat McCafferty, Fr (Bishop) Edward Daly to name a few better known. At a guess I would say that a great number of those expressing these opinions are in their 20/30's even early 40's. It is impossible to judge the events of 30 years ago if you haven't lived through them. The bottom line is judged from here and now the actions of bishops and the Church in covering up abuse is totally unacceptable. But that's judged my the mores of today. At the time of these incidents a large number of factors came into play, but the one over riding factor was the institutional Church's requirement to keep up appearances. Leaders in the Church made decisions which were understandably human in trying to protect the institution whilst being totally unjustifiable on the level of any Christian Faith. The upshot of all this scandal is that many Bishops in Ireland and even more priests have come to realize the need for the Church to be open and protective of it's congregation, the penny hasn't dropped with Benedict yet and it probably will take his successor to move things on. i believe in God, not because of what I have been told, because I have faith. I believe in the traditions of the Catholic Church. I despise much of what Benedict stands for and consider him a poor choice as Pope not least because of his Nazi connections. I am a liberal Catholic like the vast majority, more Anglican in outlook than orthodox Catholic. I see the difference between that and a human fallible hierarchy. You can see parallels in all organizations whether religious or secular. The point I'm making is this, it is ok not to believe in God as this is a personal matter, it is ok to despise and criticize the Churches action on abuse. But don't use one to justify the other. If you truly believed in God you would understand that often he lets bad things happen. I am not in any way condoning coverups or the conservative nature of the Hierarchy. I believe that Christ would have no problem with married or women priests, he would have had no problem with Gay or Lesbian christians and sooner or later the Church will catch up. A bit like Gerry and Martin with the IRA you need to start change from with in. Anyone can stand outside and throw stones (or snowballs!). This doesn't really do justice to my position and no doubt many will attack aspects of the content, but I try to avoid longish posts.

Apples, that is a great post.

You tell us that unless we lived through the 70's we wouldn't understand etc, then you say you detest Benedict because of his Nazi connections (wasn't he indoctrined into hitler youth as a child, he hardly had much choice), did you live through 1940's nazi germany yourself to truly understand his position at the time?

I don't buy this bullshit about the 70's. Brady and all his buddies knew that raping a child was the most darkest evil sin that was possible yet I am expected to believe he was in a school 10 miles from Brendan Smyth and he felt it was all taken care off and anyway he was only a priest and could do nothing?? If that is the make up of the people in the catholic church then its no wonder it is the corrupt evil organisation it is. There is no excuse and there was no excuse then for making a 14 year old boy sign an NDA and for not reporting a child rapist to the Gardai. There was no problem in denouncing other sinners like single mothers or homosexuals from the alter after all.

It boils down to this for me. I can understand people believing in God, believing Jesus was the son of god and the bible is his message to man on how to live life. You can have all that belief outside any church. But why do people insist on being a member of a church that at the highest levels have covered up child rapists and destroyed 1000's of lives. Why do priests, many of them no doubt decent, allow themselves to be a part of this organisation and allow themselves to be tainted by it? Can they not preach the word of God outside the church?? My suspicion is along the lines of what you said Apples - "I believe in the traditions of the catholic church". What that implies to me is that the church to people is like supporting your team, or being part of some cultural movement - the "my people right or wrong" argument. Logically being a christian (As defined by the bible) and being part of the catholic church currently is a hypocritical position. You are giving money to an organisation that owes this state 100's of millions for their evil actions and at the same time has billions at its finger tips in priceless paintings and stolen gold. Why are people so afraid to confront this truth? Do people believe the church is sincere at rooting out all this evil - I don't, not for a minute. I can only imagine what was going on in places like Africa where there was limited law and order, a heaven for a paedophile. Has the vatican started looking into this yet, more important to censor priests in Ireland instead I presume.

[armaghniac]

My suspicion is along the lines of what you said Apples - "I believe in the traditions of the catholic church". What that implies to me is that the church to people is like supporting your team, or being part of some cultural movement - the "my people right or wrong" argument.

Not only that, but he is probably a member of the GAA, an organisation that has named one of its stadia after a paedophile and others after people in this infamous Catholic church. 

[Arthur_Friend]

My suspicion is along the lines of what you said Apples - "I believe in the traditions of the catholic church". What that implies to me is that the church to people is like supporting your team, or being part of some cultural movement - the "my people right or wrong" argument.

Not only that, but he is probably a member of the GAA, an organisation that has named one of its stadia after a paedophile and others after people in this infamous Catholic church.

Who was that?

[Arthur_Friend]

Guys a little perspective please. It is quite clear from the posts on here that a large number of you have lost faith in God and the Church, an understandable enough position in todays world. You need to ask yourself though have you lost faith because of the actions of of some senior clergy or are you retrospectively using this as an excuse...and I'm not making a judgement just asking the question. There are and have been many ordinary decent clerics who have demonstrated the true meaning of their vocation, many more than the number of abusers and cover ups. Fr Aidan troy, Fr Brian D'Arcy, Fr Pat McCafferty, Fr (Bishop) Edward Daly to name a few better known. At a guess I would say that a great number of those expressing these opinions are in their 20/30's even early 40's. It is impossible to judge the events of 30 years ago if you haven't lived through them. The bottom line is judged from here and now the actions of bishops and the Church in covering up abuse is totally unacceptable. But that's judged my the mores of today. At the time of these incidents a large number of factors came into play, but the one over riding factor was the institutional Church's requirement to keep up appearances. Leaders in the Church made decisions which were understandably human in trying to protect the institution whilst being totally unjustifiable on the level of any Christian Faith. The upshot of all this scandal is that many Bishops in Ireland and even more priests have come to realize the need for the Church to be open and protective of it's congregation, the penny hasn't dropped with Benedict yet and it probably will take his successor to move things on. i believe in God, not because of what I have been told, because I have faith. I believe in the traditions of the Catholic Church. I despise much of what Benedict stands for and consider him a poor choice as Pope not least because of his Nazi connections. I am a liberal Catholic like the vast majority, more Anglican in outlook than orthodox Catholic. I see the difference between that and a human fallible hierarchy. You can see parallels in all organizations whether religious or secular. The point I'm making is this, it is ok not to believe in God as this is a personal matter, it is ok to despise and criticize the Churches action on abuse. But don't use one to justify the other. If you truly believed in God you would understand that often he lets bad things happen. I am not in any way condoning coverups or the conservative nature of the Hierarchy. I believe that Christ would have no problem with married or women priests, he would have had no problem with Gay or Lesbian christians and sooner or later the Church will catch up. A bit like Gerry and Martin with the IRA you need to start change from with in. Anyone can stand outside and throw stones (or snowballs!). This doesn't really do justice to my position and no doubt many will attack aspects of the content, but I try to avoid longish posts.

That doesn't make any sense....everything you believe about God is something you were told (if you have mainstream religious beliefs).

[ziggy90]

Originally everything I knew about God was related to me by my God-Fearing parents. Later on my knowledge of him was taught to me by Priests and teachers, since then MY belief in him has been strengthened by my own thoughts. I think this is what is called faith.

[Pangurban]

Good post Apples. The Church as an institution is both divine and human. The human part is and always has been susceptible to corruption. The core duty is to protect and transmit the truth contained within the Gospel message. There is therefore an obligation on all church members to protect and defend the message, but not necessarily the messenger. Popes,Cardinals,Bishops and laity are human people with all the weak frailities and tendency to sin. The best any of us can do is preach the Gospel, but only using words when absolutely necessary. Example is the best teacher

[thejuice]

I had a rather surprising conversation with a woman from home yesterday. For the first time in a long time that she can remember she didn't go to mass on Sunday. This was a woman who did a lot of fundraising for getting the local church redecorated and was always at the church gates doing charity work or something along those lines.

But yesterday she decided that while her faith in god hasn't diminished, her faith in the catholic church and Rome has gone. She decided that she would no longer lift a finger to help the church again. She felt that if she and others like her didn't stop "propping up" the church it will never change.

[orangeman]

Politicians have shown a lack of "statesmanship" over the position of Cardinal Sean Brady, according to the Auxiliary Bishop of Down and Connor.

Bishop Donal McKeown said he was disappointed no-one had "dared to suggest that we might lift the focus from that narrow resignation question".

Writing on his Facebook page, he said: "How many of us, who have lived in the NI glasshouse, are in a position to throw stones?

"That sort of comment would have been painfully honest, and helped us to face our very messy past.

"There are many of our leaders whose lives show that, just because you have a past, doesn't mean that you don't have a future."

Three out of the four main parties in the Republic of Ireland and the Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness have called on Cardinal Brady to consider his position, following last week's BBC documentary accusing him of failing to act on allegations of abuse that he discovered as part of an investigation as a young priest.

Bishop McKeown told BBC Radio Ulster on Monday that his remarks were designed to be provocative and he was directing them at himself as much as other individuals.

"Children have been damaged in many ways across society, and if you confront all those ways as a society rather than focusing on just one element, then I think we would be able to live the next 10 years, with all these anniversaries coming up, constructively rather than in a silly and partisan way," he said.

"It's hard to take criticism of Cardinal Brady from many people who during the Troubles were involved in state bodies, paramilitary bodies or who shared platforms with those organisations, who did huge damage to children and their families.

"What I'm trying to say is, have we anyone who can help us see the big picture rather than just be driven by what's a comparatively narrow question on Cardinal Brady?"

[mylestheslasher]

Wise words there from the Bishop. I think we should extend this to all criminals, forgive everyone ask no questions and continue on regardless. Anything but take responsibility for anything. Do you have to have have the IQ of a field mouse to become a Bishop in this country?

[Myles Na G.]

Christians expect us to believe in a god who is with us, a god who sends us the holy spirit to give us wisdom and courage, and the sacraments to help us on our journey through life. We are told to pray, so that we gain the wisdom that tells us the difference between right and wrong and the courage to do the right thing. Then we hear that one of the princes of the church doesn't seem to know that it is wrong to stand idly by and do nothing while children are raped and abused. Where was his sense of right and wrong, his courage to do the right thing? What happened to the holy spirit? Was he asleep? This stuff about the culture of deference is just so much bullshit. Child abuse is wrong and if you happen to be the individual who knows it's going on, it falls to you to do something about it. You shouldn't have to be a canon lawyer to know that much. Throughout the church hierarchy, all over the world, so called religious men and women failed to do the right thing on so many occasions. They spend half their lives on their knees praying, the other half urging the rest of us to do the same, but when it comes to the crucial moment, they seem to know less about what's right and wrong than the average person in the street.

[mylestheslasher]

Good post Myles na g

[Puckoon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17982360

Yiz have probably already seen this on the news this weekend/today.

"That's what we would call progress, not liberalism".

[Pangurban]

Talks cheap And these Priests know full well that the Church is not a democracy