Clerical abuse!

[Lar Naparka]

Folks think of Sharia law and how it is administered in fundamentalist Muslim countries and then you have some idea of what Ireland was like pre 1980s. I'm old enough to remember it and to speak out against the church wasn't on anyone's radar never mind a card carrying member like Brady. Not excusing the lack of action on his behalf just contextualising it.
I remember having a row with my own parents about an incident that happened with a local young neighbour of mine that was "hushed" up not by the clerical authorities but by the local pillars of the civil community and when they told me how it had been dealt with I could understand it more while still being repulsed by it.

Everyone is ignoring Declan's post, which sets the context perfectly. He was a bit player in these awful incidents.

I truely believe that he is a good and decent man.

Like Declan I can remember those times well and he is dead right about the fundamentalist nature of Irish society back in the 70s.
I sat my Leaving Cert in '67 so I am old enough to vouch that the mindset of  Irish society back then was very far removed from that of the present day.
It was indeed a time of universal deference to authority as Brady himself put it.

What people who are not old enough to remember the times we speak of cannot possibly understand is the fact that most people were quite happy to do as they were told and to accept their subservient place in the order of things.
Those who chose to speak out met with little approval from those around them; clergy or laity.
So I can accept that Fr John B Brady felt he was fulfilling his duties when he passed on the results of his investigation to his superior and took no further action on the matter concerned.
If, as the man says, he was a mere note taker and did all he was expected to, I would attach no blame to him for what subsequently happened. The fact that Smyth was left free to carry on his evil actions for many years would not have been his concern at that time..
But, for me at any rate, it's a classic case of then and now.

I can accept with difficulty the morality of his actions in 1975. I cannot do so now.

For one thing, it transpires that he has downplayed the importance of his role in those interrogations of Smyth's victims.
In plain English, I feel Brady lied about his part in those proceedings.

Even so, I could still feel some pity for him- he probably felt he was acting in good faith back then and after finally surviving all the intrigues and pitfalls on his way to his coveted red cap, he could hardly relish the prospect of surrendering it and retiring in disgrace.
A venal old man but hardly a criminal.
But his actions in recent times and his failure to say anything when the controversy over Smyth's activities first broke cast a different light on his true feelings-or so it seems to me.
Smyth's victims deserve justice and if that means that some of those who stood idly by, and by extension aided him in his nefarious activities, are called to account in a court of law, then so be it.

[Orior]

Reporting what? Who did he rape?

All I'm saying is that he crossed the line. Should I hang my head in shame for not reporting it to the RUC?

You seem to be confused between serious crime and gossip. There is no crime to report in what you describe. Do you seriously see a parallel between this and Brady's failure to report the actual rape of actual children?

I'm trying to point out that there are a hundred shades of grey.

[give her dixie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cYv9wKH7CE

This disturbing documentary exposes the Vaticans cover up of child abuse!

Deliver Us from Evil (2006) is a documentary film directed by Amy J. Berg which tells the true story of Irish Catholic priest Oliver O'Grady, who sexually abused potentially hundreds of children between the late 1970s and early 1990s in California.

The film won the Best Documentary Award at the 2006 Los Angeles Film Festival and was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.

Just another example of the world wide pedophilia ring that is the Catholic Church.

I am a member of the Catholic church. Does that make me a pedophile or a pedophile sympathiser/protector?

The Church has many many problems that need addressed but to term it as a ''pedophilia ring'' is a serious insult to the 99.99% of its members that are in it in good faith.

If you wish to be taken seriously you should retract that comment.

As I have previously stated, right across the world, priests sexually abused thousands of  boys and girls. Their crimes were covered up by fellow priests, bishops, cardinals, and the current pope.

If that isn't a world wide pedophilia ring, then what would you call it?

[EC Unique]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cYv9wKH7CE

This disturbing documentary exposes the Vaticans cover up of child abuse!

Deliver Us from Evil (2006) is a documentary film directed by Amy J. Berg which tells the true story of Irish Catholic priest Oliver O'Grady, who sexually abused potentially hundreds of children between the late 1970s and early 1990s in California.

The film won the Best Documentary Award at the 2006 Los Angeles Film Festival and was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.

Just another example of the world wide pedophilia ring that is the Catholic Church.

I am a member of the Catholic church. Does that make me a pedophile or a pedophile sympathiser/protector?

The Church has many many problems that need addressed but to term it as a ''pedophilia ring'' is a serious insult to the 99.99% of its members that are in it in good faith.

If you wish to be taken seriously you should retract that comment.

As I have previously stated, right across the world, priests sexually abused thousands of  boys and girls. Their crimes were covered up by fellow priests, bishops, cardinals, and the current pope.

If that isn't a world wide pedophilia ring, then what would you call it?

You are tarring all with the one brush. There are too many good Catholic people and indeed priests. Is it fair on them to label them pedos because of the failures of others?

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Following a period of reform, readjustment and repentance, the Church will recover its strenght and courage to be a light in the wilderness

Things are already on the up.  Take Cardinal Law for example.  9 years ago he only got on a plane with 3 hours to spare before State Troopers arrived at his door looking for him.

Six months back he celebrated his 80th birthday bash at a 4 star restaurant in Rome where the band entertained over a 100 guests! (Google it to read about the splendour).

Granted the baying mob of secularists and their extradition requests meant he couldn't join the Pope when he visited America but we are getting there....

You reckon as a member of the Congregations for the Oriental Churches, the Clergy, Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, Evangelisation of Peoples, Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, Catholic Education, Bishops as well as the Pontifical Council for the Family that he believes he has a day of judgement coming?

/Jim.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

You are tarring all with the one brush. There are too many good Catholic people and indeed priests. Is it fair on them to label them pedos because of the failures of others?

As a Catholic do you put money in the basket?  Money that, other than Easter and Christmas priest collections, goes to central diocesan, national and Rome funds.  Money that is used to defend perverts and move them around the place.

I used to share your belief about the tarring with a brush but the longer this goes on, the more I feel that the guilt by association argument grows stronger.  Equally the circle of association widens.  My wife is Catholic and this is something we are now starting to discuss at home.  Particularly because our kids are baptised as Catholics too. 

/Jim.

[give her dixie]

You are tarring all with the one brush. There are too many good Catholic people and indeed priests. Is it fair on them to label them pedos because of the failures of others?

For 20 years now we have been fed a steady news feed on the worldwide sexual abuse of boys and girls by priests. At the same time we hear a lot about the "Good Priests".

Over the past few days, how many of these "Good Priests" have you seen or heard come forward and publicly stand side by side with the abused and call on Brady to resign for his part in the cover up and further abuse of others?

Until these "Good Priests" come forward, i'm sorry, I don't see too much good about them.

[EC Unique]

You are tarring all with the one brush. There are too many good Catholic people and indeed priests. Is it fair on them to label them pedos because of the failures of others?

As a Catholic do you put money in the basket?  Money that, other than Easter and Christmas priest collections, goes to central diocesan, national and Rome funds.  Money that is used to defend perverts and move them around the place.

I used to share your belief about the tarring with a brush but the longer this goes on, the more I feel that the guilt by association argument grows stronger.  Equally the circle of association widens.  My wife is Catholic and this is something we are now starting to discuss at home.  Particularly because our kids are baptised as Catholics too. 

/Jim.

No. I stopped putting money in baskets a long time ago for this very reason. I give money to our priests from time to time directly. I trust both of them.

[Hound]

I'm trying to point out that there are a hundred shades of grey.

A child told him that he was raped by a priest, and that the priest was also raping other children.
He made the child swear an oath of secrecy never to repeat what he told him.
The priest continued to abuse children for years after that.

The shades of grey is certainly in the eye of the beholder!

But its the blind attitude of Orior and similar that has given priests, bishops, cardinals etc such power of hundreds of years. The evil ones (and nobody will dispute there have been been evil popes) take full advantage because of the stupidity of "blind faith" the priests, bishops and cardinals try to brainwash us Catholics all with.

[Orior]

I'm trying to point out that there are a hundred shades of grey.

A child told him that he was raped by a priest, and that the priest was also raping other children.
He made the child swear an oath of secrecy never to repeat what he told him.
The priest continued to abuse children for years after that.

The shades of grey is certainly in the eye of the beholder!

But its the blind attitude of Orior and similar that has given priests, bishops, cardinals etc such power of hundreds of years. The evil ones (and nobody will dispute there have been been evil popes) take full advantage because of the stupidity of "blind faith" the priests, bishops and cardinals try to brainwash us Catholics all with.

Of course the perpetrators of the actual crimes should and mostly have been prosecuted.

But we're talking here about a gopher or lackey. They lackey was being directed by what was in essence the Internal Investigation Branch of the Catholic Church. There are lots of heroic films on TV about Police Internal Investigation Branch and often how they are corrupt they often are. This hunt is focussed on the lackey, and chastising him because he didnt have the courage to be a whistle blower in the 1970's. The hunt completely ignores the good he had acheived in his life.

[theskull1]

Of course the perpetrators of the actual crimes should and mostly have been prosecuted.

But we're talking here about a gopher or lackey. They lackey was being directed by what was in essence the Internal Investigation Branch of the Catholic Church. There are lots of heroic films on TV about Police Internal Investigation Branch and often how they are corrupt they often are. This hunt is focussed on the lackey, and chastising him because he didnt have the courage to be a whistle blower in the 1970's. The hunt completely ignores the good he had acheived in his life.

Unreal. A doctorate in canon law is now being called a simple lackey in regards to his role, but now he's a suitable individual to be the moral compass for all catholics in Ireland.

There is something suitable about the title though

Noun   1.   lackey - a male servant (especially a footman)
flunkey, flunky
servant, retainer - a person working in the service of another (especially in the household)
           2.   lackey - a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage

ass-kisser, crawler, sycophant, toady
apple polisher, bootlicker, fawner, groveler, groveller, truckler - someone who humbles himself as a sign of respect; who behaves as if he had no self-respect
adulator, flatterer - a person who uses flattery
goody-goody - a person who behaves extremely well in order to please a superior

[tbrick18]

For just one second, lets take the church out of this and imagine that a child reports to a trusted adult that they are being abused in the worst possible manner.
That adult then swears that child to secrecy and doesn't report the issue to the police or warn the parents of the child in question.
The abuser continues to abuse that child and many others over the course of years.
Has that adult committed a crime?
My understanding is yes they have. There is a law as far as I know which states that you must come forward with information which can prevent a crime if you have such information, and if you dont come forward you are liable to prosecution.
Now, if that is the law and its applied to the general public, why should a priest (or an organisation such as a church) not be subject to the same law?
The fact that this was an investigation on behalf of the church is irrelevant as to whether or not Brady, or any of the other two priests or bishops involved should have reported it to the authorities. IMO their lack of action was a crime as regards to the law of the land. Now they are trying to say that they shouldn't be subject to those particular laws as they followed the instruction of their superiors.
The law must be applied equally to all and the fact that the people in question followed the instructions of their organisation doesnt excuse them from following the law of the land.

[armaghniac]

For just one second, lets take the church out of this and imagine that a child reports to a trusted adult that they are being abused in the worst possible manner.
That adult then swears that child to secrecy and doesn't report the issue to the police or warn the parents of the child in question.

Two things. Firstly the parents of the person interviewed this week did not report the issue to the police or warn the parents of other children. Are they guilty, according to your definition?

Also there is much talk of being sworn to secrecy. Has anyone seen the exact wording of this? Clearly the person was asked to swear to respect to the confidentiality of the inquiry, but were they prohibited from discussing things that happened before the inquiry? I don't know this, but have others talking about this actually seen the form of words used. For instance, in a annulment tribunal or suchlike you might be asked to respect the confidentiality of the process, but does that mean that you cannot tell other people that your wife deserted you or whatever (once again I don't know).

[qwerty]

I'm trying to point out that there are a hundred shades of grey.

A child told him that he was raped by a priest, and that the priest was also raping other children.
He made the child swear an oath of secrecy never to repeat what he told him.
The priest continued to abuse children for years after that.

The shades of grey is certainly in the eye of the beholder!

But its the blind attitude of Orior and similar that has given priests, bishops, cardinals etc such power of hundreds of years. The evil ones (and nobody will dispute there have been been evil popes) take full advantage because of the stupidity of "blind faith" the priests, bishops and cardinals try to brainwash us Catholics all with.

Of course the perpetrators of the actual crimes should and mostly have been prosecuted.

But we're talking here about a gopher or lackey. They lackey was being directed by what was in essence the Internal Investigation Branch of the Catholic Church. There are lots of heroic films on TV about Police Internal Investigation Branch and often how they are corrupt they often are. This hunt is focussed on the lackey, and chastising him because he didnt have the courage to be a whistle blower in the 1970's. The hunt completely ignores the good he had acheived in his life.

This is unreal! He was a 36 year old canon lawyer who obviously was well thought of with the powers that be in the church! For 13 years did he never think why Smyth was not up before the courts and was he still raping children? He had the power to stop it but didn't! End of story!
What gets me really cross is that a 13/14 year old who was previously repeatedly raped by a priest was taken into a locked room with 3 priests and asked all sorts of sick questions. The wee fella must've been in complete fear. Really really sick!!

[Orior]

I'm trying to point out that there are a hundred shades of grey.

A child told him that he was raped by a priest, and that the priest was also raping other children.
He made the child swear an oath of secrecy never to repeat what he told him.
The priest continued to abuse children for years after that.

The shades of grey is certainly in the eye of the beholder!

But its the blind attitude of Orior and similar that has given priests, bishops, cardinals etc such power of hundreds of years. The evil ones (and nobody will dispute there have been been evil popes) take full advantage because of the stupidity of "blind faith" the priests, bishops and cardinals try to brainwash us Catholics all with.

Of course the perpetrators of the actual crimes should and mostly have been prosecuted.

But we're talking here about a gopher or lackey. They lackey was being directed by what was in essence the Internal Investigation Branch of the Catholic Church. There are lots of heroic films on TV about Police Internal Investigation Branch and often how they are corrupt they often are. This hunt is focussed on the lackey, and chastising him because he didnt have the courage to be a whistle blower in the 1970's. The hunt completely ignores the good he had acheived in his life.

This is unreal! He was a 36 year old canon lawyer who obviously was well thought of with the powers that be in the church! For 13 years did he never think why Smyth was not up before the courts and was he still raping children? He had the power to stop it but didn't! End of story!
What gets me really cross is that a 13/14 year old who was previously repeatedly raped by a priest was taken into a locked room with 3 priests and asked all sorts of sick questions. The wee fella must've been in complete fear. Really really sick!!

But that was the way life was in the 1970's. There wasnt the army of social workers, the raft of help lines, nor the internet to see if the same thing was happening elsewhere.