The ulster rugby trial

[Syferus]

Holy smokes, they are holding solidarity rallies in Belfast, dublin and Limerick tomorrow, that has to be a joke?

Solidarity for who?

#ibelieveher

Cute. The glad-handing from the other side is just as bad.

Do you not support the movement seeing as you do believe her?

I believe her but I don't support hysterically protesting the court's decision. Legally and based on the judge's directions the jury carried out their jobs.

That said, this case highlighted that the way rape cases are tried has some serious flaws and under a better and fairer system a different result would have been possible. If they're protesting the system rather than the decision I'd have more respect for the sentiment.

A trial needs to be fair to all parties not the complainant. Are you advocating a lower bar?

The fact is all parties had 2 months to present their case yet within 4 hours the defendants were found unanimously not guilty. It's pretty clear the complainants case wasn't close to the high bar.

I don't think a system where the women is left on the  stand for six days and has her underwear paraded to the court is particularly fair to the complainant or even the rendering of justice, Tony.

Rape trials are different to many other criminal trials so try to apply the same logic as other types of criminal cases to it leads to these sorts of debacles. Unless the rape is exceedingly obvious (it rarely is), the preparator will get off scott free. That's not a society I'm comfortable supporting.

[AZOffaly]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

[RedHand88]

Now they're spreading fake tweets from jackson where he boasts about the verdict. And people are believing it as genuine! I am done with social media. It's bad for your health.

[AQMP]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

I think in England and Wales it's around 12% or so.  Don't know about Ireland.

[Syferus]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

Those statistics wouldn't even include those not brought to trial, nevermind the many more which are never reported in the first place. And I think anyone who is being honest will admit the vast majority of those women are not lying about being raped.

Finding a victim of rape willing to go to trial and enough evidence to convict is a rare thing. The chilling effect of today is something rotten and only makes young women feel less protected by the law.

[AZOffaly]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

Those statistics wouldn't even include those not brought to trial, nevermind the many more which are never reported in the first place. And I think anyone who is being honest will admit the vast majority of those women are not lying about being raped.

Finding a victim of rape willing to go to trial and enough evidence to convict is a rare thing. The chilling effect of today is something rotten and only makes young women feel less protected by the law.

Yeah, I know. I'm specifically wondering about the percentage of convictions where the DPP has decided there is evidence enough to prosecute.

[AQMP]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

I think in England and Wales it's around 12% or so.  Don't know about Ireland.

Sorry that's not right, I think that's reported rapes not those that actually go to trial.

[David McKeown]

In answer to the earlier questions about costs, a successful defendant can apply for costs but it is a very high hurdle to get over. From memory the test is that there was no reasonable prospect of success. It's extremely rare for it to be awarded in NI. Given that this trial got over halfway I wouldn't expect them to be successful were an application to be made.


As to the not guilty/innocent debate. The decision was technically not guilty. No decision of innocence exists so it would be impossible for these men to be proven innocence. That said BCB remains correct they must be considered innocent until proven otherwise (even to the civil standard).

I find it very interesting that Olding had been charged with vaginal rape and that hadn't been amended before the arraignment. But that's the nerd in me.

As to whether or not she lied it appears obvious to me that the jury simply didn't believe her about McIlroy as I can't see any other way they could have arrived at that decision.

[Asal Mor]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

Those statistics wouldn't even include those not brought to trial, nevermind the many more which are never reported in the first place. And I think anyone who is being honest will admit the vast majority of those women are not lying about being raped.

Finding a victim of rape willing to go to trial and enough evidence to convict is a rare thing. The chilling effect of today is something rotten and only makes young women feel less protected by the law.

The verdict was a victory for justice. The police behaved like the rape crisis centre and took everything the girl said at face value. No mention of DF or taking her own top off in her interview for the love of God and you wanted a conviction. The CPS compounded the error and brought a case to court that ruined numerous lives and hadn't a notion of being successful. A unanimous verdict in a ridiculously short time tells you this was as clear cut as it gets. Regardless of whether you believe her story it's a scandal that the case as it was handled even made it to court.

[Syferus]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

Those statistics wouldn't even include those not brought to trial, nevermind the many more which are never reported in the first place. And I think anyone who is being honest will admit the vast majority of those women are not lying about being raped.

Finding a victim of rape willing to go to trial and enough evidence to convict is a rare thing. The chilling effect of today is something rotten and only makes young women feel less protected by the law.

Today was a victory for justice. The police behaved like the rape crisis centre and took everything the girl said at face value. No mention of DF or taking her own top off in her interview for the love of God and you wanted a conviction. The CPS compounded the error and brought a case to court that ruined numerous lives and hadn't a notion of being successful. A unanimous verdict in a ridiculously short time tells you this was as clear cut as it gets. Regardless of whether you believe her story it's a scandal that the case as it was handled even made it to court.

Not surprised you're still a twat.

[Main Street]

As a matter of interest, do we have the stats for successful prosecution of rape cases brought to trial?

I think in England and Wales it's around 12% or so.  Don't know about Ireland.

Sorry that's not right, I think that's reported rapes not those that actually go to trial.

It's closer to a 60% success rate for the CPS.

[Avondhu star]

Holy smokes, they are holding solidarity rallies in Belfast, dublin and Limerick tomorrow, that has to be a joke?

Solidarity for who?

#ibelieveher

Cute. The glad-handing from the other side is just as bad.

Do you not support the movement seeing as you do believe her?

I believe her but I don't support hysterically protesting the court's decision. Legally and based on the judge's directions the jury carried out their jobs.

That said, this case highlighted that the way rape cases are tried has some serious flaws and under a better and fairer system a different result would have been possible. If they're protesting the system rather than the decision I'd have more respect for the sentiment.

A trial needs to be fair to all parties not the complainant. Are you advocating a lower bar?

The fact is all parties had 2 months to present their case yet within 4 hours the defendants were found unanimously not guilty. It's pretty clear the complainants case wasn't close to the high bar.

I don't think a system where the women is left on the  stand for six days and has her underwear paraded to the court is particularly fair to the complainant or even the rendering of justice, Tony.

Rape trials are different to many other criminal trials so try to apply the same logic as other types of criminal cases to it leads to these sorts of debacles. Unless the rape is exceedingly obvious (it rarely is), the preparator will get off scott free. That's not a society I'm comfortable supporting.

You have the option of returning to the mother ship if you don't like it here

[sid waddell]

Finding a victim of rape willing to go to trial and enough evidence to convict is a rare thing. The chilling effect of today is something rotten and only makes young women feel less protected by the law.

I can accept the verdict of a jury who found that the burden of proof of beyond reasonable doubt was not met.

What I find much harder to accept is the reflex reaction of so many knuckle dragging men on social media who have reacted to the verdict by treating it as a legitimisation of and a victory for their neanderthal views of women, of rape and of the concept of what is consent, and who erroneously or mendaciously make out that the verdict means that the complainant was lying, and who believe it gives them carte blanche to now seek to humiliate the complainant publicly, including naming her.

And it's hard to not think that the content of what the defence QCs said did not contribute to that. The implication that asking in desperation to "at least use a condom" implies consent, when it categorically does not. The rhetoric that the complainant not screaming amounted to consent, when it categorically did not. The assertions that the woman's confusion as a result of trauma in the hours after the events amounted to lies.

It's a sort of Trump moment. The knuckle draggers of social media now believe they have been given the green light to spout every abhorrent idea they've ever had about women and about rape and get away with it.

[sid waddell]

A unanimous verdict in a ridiculously short time tells you this was as clear cut as it gets. Regardless of whether you believe her story it's a scandal that the case as it was handled even made it to court.

OJ Simpson was acquitted in an hour.

Presumably you think that was as clear cut as it gets too.

[AZOffaly]

Finding a victim of rape willing to go to trial and enough evidence to convict is a rare thing. The chilling effect of today is something rotten and only makes young women feel less protected by the law.

I can accept the verdict of a jury who found that the burden of proof of beyond reasonable doubt was not met.

What I find much harder to accept is the reflex reaction of so many knuckle dragging men on social media who have reacted to the verdict by treating it as a legitimisation of and a victory for their neanderthal views of women, of rape and of the concept of what is consent, and who erroneously or mendaciously make out that the verdict means that the complainant was lying, and who believe it gives them carte blanche to now seek to humiliate the complainant publicly, including naming her.

And it's hard to not think that the content of what the defence QCs said did not contribute to that. The implication that asking in desperation to "at least use a condom" implies consent, when it categorically does not. The rhetoric that the complainant not screaming amounted to consent, when it categorically did not. The assertions that the woman's confusion as a result of trauma in the hours after the events amounted to lies.

It's a sort of Trump moment. The knuckle draggers of social media now believe they have been given the green light to spout every abhorrent idea they've ever had about women and about rape and get away with it.

And the ying to their yang are the women who use a verdict they disagree with to tar all men as rapists or rape apologists, and despite not being within an asses roar of the courtroom feel qualified to rubbish the jury's opinion.

Twitter, on a topic like this, is poison.