Messages

Taking what too far? I think I've made some very fair points on O'Connor, others have disagreed but I haven't see anything to change my mind. I do think O'Connor is very overrated and its lazy analysis to point to his scoring records alone, I think any decent forward would have the same scoring records as O'Connor if they played in that team and were entrusted with the same duties and faith that he's had there.

You're absolutely taking it too far but that's nothing new with you. I still don't know why/how he's overrated or a weak link on the team. What national pundits proclaim Cillian as one of the top forwards in the country? The old cliché of mayo having no forwards has persisted right throughout his career. There's 14 pages on this thread of people pointing out everything he can't do.

His scoring stats are inflated by us not having a left footed free taker but even allowing for that his record from play stands up against most top forwards. He gets all kinds of scores, many of which he engineers himself. I pointed out the Tyrone game in 2016, but you dismissed that as a one off. Donegal in 2013 was pointed out (the 1-1 he got in the competitive stages of the 1st half was brilliantly finished with his left foot) but seemingly because it turned into a rout it doesn't matter. He got a brilliant individual equaliser at the end of the 2016 final and got several excellent scores in the 2017 semi-final and final. Also the 1st half point vs Dublin last year. 

He is also far from a passenger in general play. He was the one who won the ball and set up Conor Loftus for the goal against Derry a few years ago. Also this score against Galway last summer...

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1147582983907528706?s=19

The fact he scored a hat trick against Limerick is used as a stick to beat him with. Apparently that's just padding his stats but ignores the fact he has scored 2-5 vs Kerry, 1-8 vs Dublin and 1-9 vs Dublin. But all the Armagh forwards are better than him because they looked good in qualifiers or Ulster championship games which they generally lost.

It goes without saying he wouldn't be as prolific for a division 4 team - neither would Gooch, Murphy, McManus, Brogan etc etc. But mayo were well off the national pace before Cillian came along. In 2010 we lost to Sligo an Longford. In 2011 we were about to be knocked out by London before Cillian came off the bench for his debut to help steady the ship.
Later that summer he got another brilliant solo score with the goal against Kerry.

No doubt that won't satisfy you either of course.

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

He also got 1-9 in a game against Dublin, should we exclude that too?

You keep saying Mayo are a team that dominate the opposition. We haven't managed to win an All Ireland or even Connacht the last 4 years. It's nothing like the dominance Dublin have and Kerry have in Munster. Apart from probably the 2013 Connacht Championship every other one had several tough games and Cillian played a vital role in winning them.

People bringing up McManus, Murphy and Brogan again who have multiple all stars, player of the year awards etc. They are (rightly) lauded as generational talents, something never spoken about with Cillian. If you look at the amount of scores Cillian sets up for Keegan, paddy Durcan and others running through, also the amount of turnovers he wins off corner backs he offers plenty to the team besides an outrageous scoring tally.

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

Not bad going for the team's weak link!

I'm talking nonsense? Is there an asterisk beside all scoring stats when the game turns into a rout? What about Con O'Callaghan's 2 goals against us last summer.. We didn't show up in the 2nd half so maybe they shouldn't count.

I'm sure you can look up how many were penalties, does the fact Cillian won the penalty himself make a difference?

Several of those players you name have been in and out of the team the last 10 years, Cillian hasn't. Also, you're going on as if Mayo dominate every team we play and get let down by Cillian. That's clearly rubbish as Fenton and David Moran always play well against us. I seem to remember Paul Conroy winning man of the match against us recently too.

You're absolutely right Angelo.

That none of the greatest forwards in the most dominant teams in history have come close to his scoring rate, well that can  only be a statistical anomaly.

He's only played 60-odd championship games. It's not a strong enough sample as what you saw one day when he was surrounded by Tyrone's blanket.

(I do wonder if it ever crosses your mind that Tyrone have played that way since 2012 because they haven't had the scoring power to compete with top-flight sides in a more open contest?)

Yup, if you put any of the greatest forwards or some fairly average ones in that Mayo team and entrusted them with free taking duties then they'd be topping the all time scoring charts.

For instance I think it's highly possible that Darren McCurry will finish up as Tyrone's all time top scorer in Championship before he calls it a day too and he's been in and out of the Tyrone team ever since he joined the panel, has taken a year out and has not been a regular free taker for the past 4 or 5 seasons now.

Scoring records don't really say a lot particularly for free takers. How would O'Connor survive being double tagged in a one man full forward line in an inferior team like Conor McManus has?

Well he played against a Jim McGuiness managed Donegal in 2013 and scored a hat trick. McManus played the same Donegal team a few weeks previous and didn't get near that.

Tyrone were also playing a full blanket defence in 2016 when Cillian did really well. I think he's also got 5 goals in all Ireland semi-finals against Kerry down the years. But maybe that's all down to Keegan and Higgins.

He's the top scorer in the history of the championship.

He averages 6.8 points per game.

The only player in the top 25 with a better scoring average is Matt Connor (7.0).

To put this in context, dead ball specialist, free scoring scoring machines of the back door era like Padraig Joyce (4.0), Paddy Bradley (5 . , Conor McManus (5.3), Dean Rock (5.4) and Oisin McConville (4.4) fall well short of him, with comparable appearances.

The only player in the top 25 all time scorers with more goals than him is Mikey Sheehy.

He's has scored 36 points in 5 All Ireland finals (including a really).

————

Statistically speaking he is the single greatest scoring forward of all time.

Just to repeat that he's averaged over 7 points a game in AI finals.

This is not a flat track bully.

His record is extraordinary.

——

Comparing him to workhorse half forwards like Doherty, McLaughlin and his brother is utterly pointless. Why not compare him to Chris Barrett while you're at it?

Mentioning him the same breath as players like McAliskey and McCurry, who each have struggled to make a mediocre Tyrone side because they simply don't have the gears to play top flight senior championship football is bizarre. It might even be bordering on retarded.

——-

The analysis that reopened this thread is inherently flawed because regardless of who he has played against, for the best part of a decade now, he has rattled up scores.

Look at the top 25 scorers in the history of championship football. It's a who's who of scoring talent. And there, plum at the top of them is O'Connor.

If you genuinely believe that an average player or an average free taker could do that, then you need a zip placed on your mouth and sticky tape put on your fingers.

Handy frees for one of the top 4 county teams over the past decade.

I don't think I've ever watched one Mayo game in Championship where O'Connor was close to being the best Mayo player on display. His most high profile game was probably the one where Mayo hammered Donegal and he got a hat trick but my only abiding memory of that game is Mayo absolutely ripping Dongeal to shreds in the middle of the pitch, the two O'Sheas made absolute mincemeat out of a Donegal side suffering from a post AI hangover.

AOS gets a lot of flak for a lot of non shows in big games, he's disappointed for Mayo on the whole I think but he has also had big displays too where he has carried Mayo over the line. The guys like Keegan, Higgins, Boyle, Moran, Durcan and Diarmuid O'Connor have all been leading lights for Mayo - you've the unsung heroes like Doherty, Barrett, McLoughlin, Parsons, SOS etc who have delivered some mammoth displays for Mayo,

Cillian O'Connor as never stood out for me watching Mayo in many big Championship games as the guy who is leading the charge, he might be dominating the scoreboard, he might come up with a big score now and again but he's never been one of those players who has dominated the game or one of those players who you Mayo are trying to hit again and again.

The sort of homage you pay there is the exact reason I think O'Connor is ridiculously overrated, for that kind of a build up, I'm expecting a top forward. He's a decent free taker but he is third tier from open play.

This is getting ridiculous. Mayo hammered Donegal in that game BECAUSE Cillian scored a hat trick. If he didn't score 3 goals in an all Ireland quarter final we wouldn't have won by that much. No doubt you'll try say it was all down to us dominating possession but I've never seen a Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone forward do that and they've been involved in plenty of hammerings the last few years.

Cillian is a poacher, as he showed with the goal against Donegal last year in the super 8s. But maybe you think any intercounty forward could come in and pick up his 7 points per game average.

Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.

I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

Yes we did. Tyrone and Mayo were very evenly matched in that game as the scoreline would suggest. An obvious place where Mayo were better was the full forward line. Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play, in a low scoring game. Neither mcurry or mcaliskey scored from play.

I get defensive when people like you throw out the overrated tag. Cillian only has 1 all star, the same amount as Michael quinlivan and Ian Burke. In no way does that make him overrated FFS.

An even game maybe but I don't think there's any doubt that both sides played completely contrasting styles of football and Tyrone's inside men struggled to survive in that manner. McCurry started that game on the bench and was only introduced in the past ten minutes. It's a sample of one game you're choosing too, if McCurry or McAliskey were in that Mayo team linking up with Andy Moran and feeding off the dominance Mayo tend to have on teams in the middle of the pitch with the ball being moved in fast then I think they'd excel. Would O'Connor have been able to play in a one man full forward line like McAliskey did in 2018?

O'Connor also has more all stars than Doherty and McLoughlin, he's not a better player than them. Ian Burke's All Star award was a complete joke, I'd have Quinlavin over O'Connor any day of a wet week too.

Scoring records don't tell you a whole lot really and that seems to be the start and finish of the case for O'Connor. I've seen him live in action a few times - he's not a player who stands out, he's not a player the opposition managers focus on either.

A sample of 1 game? LOL. Mccurry and mcaliskey are the same age as Cillian more or less. The difference in their intercounty records is night and day.

Did we?

I think O'Connor played on a better team than McCurry and McAliskey. Both McCurry and McAliskey would come in for a fair degree of criticism with Tyrone, it's probably fair enough too, they haven't really done it when its mattered but Mayo have been a fair bit better than Tyrone in that time, they've probably played a style of football than allows their inside forwards much more freedom to play and score and I think I'd still have both over O'Connor but I'd gladly have swapped some of our defenders, midfielders and half forwards for the main men in that Mayo team over the past decade.

I don't understand why Mayo people get so defensive when people criticise O'Connor, it's legitimate criticism - he gets a big write up from the pundits and journalists but I think he would really struggle to hold down a regular spot on any of the other top county teams - it is usually lazy commentary from pundits looking at the scoring chart. People will pop up with the "don't knock free takers line" but the stats don't say that O'Connor is anything better than a decent free taker in any case.

He gets far more plaudits for Mayo than guys like Doherty, McLoughlin and his brother get from the national media and GAA commentators and for me he contributes not nearly as much as they do.

Yes we did. Tyrone and Mayo were very evenly matched in that game as the scoreline would suggest. An obvious place where Mayo were better was the full forward line. Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play, in a low scoring game. Neither mcurry or mcaliskey scored from play.

I get defensive when people like you throw out the overrated tag. Cillian only has 1 all star, the same amount as Michael quinlivan and Ian Burke. In no way does that make him overrated FFS.

Scored a great clutch-point from play to send the 2017 final to a replay.

I'd say three or four years ago you could have made a point of carrying him for his free taking duties, I think his success rate has plummeted badly over the past 3 or 4 seasons. The vast majority of his frees though are probably fairly central inside thirty metres, you'd be expecting any decent free taker to be hitting 90% of those.

I look at someone like McAliskey for Tyrone who I would regard as a good player but he's been in and out of the Tyrone team, he can be a little inconsistent but on the top of his game I'd take him over Cillian O'Connor on the top of his game anyday, same for McCurry. The one season where McAliskey was a regular in the Tyrone side and trusted with the free taking duties (mainly only the frees from the left and the odd long range one if Morgan was having a bad day), only McManus outscored him in the Championship and only Kilkenny outscored from play.

The point is you'd be expecting a free taker (good, decent or average) for a county who is a regular and in a team going deep into the Championship year on year to be topping the scoring charts. A lot in the media like to point to O'Connor's scoring prowess as testament to his standing as one of the best forwards in the game.

I think when you look behind that it falls down and it's not an anti Mayo thing either - I think the likes of Doherty, D O'Connor and A Moran would all have walked onto the Tyrone sides of that time and are/were all quality forwards. I don't think I could say the same with C O'Connor and I'd conversely say if Mayo had guys like McCurry, McAliskey or Lee Brennan available to them they'd probably have got much more regular action than they did with Tyrone and if they had been handed the free taking responsibilities I'd fancy them to have the scoring records O'Connor has in that Mayo team.

When Mayo played Tyrone in the 2016 quarter final we got a good contrast between Cillian O'Connor, McCurry and McAliskey.

Again, I don't see anyone in the media saying Cillian is one of the best forwards in the game. Not in the same way they talk about McManus, Clifford, con OCallaghan, Shane Walsh and others. They do talk about his importance to the team, which is undeniable. It's no coincidence the improvement mayo made in 2011 after his debut. A consistent high scoring forward will do that. He actually had the same effect on Ballintubber since 2010. They've won 5 mayo championships despite not having any previously.

Watching West Ham this evening its easy to see why Karen Brady wanted the season called off. As for Wolves they could nip into 4th spot as they have a easier run-in on paper than Chelsea or Man United.

West ham and Bournemouth were dreadful today. Aston Villa might stay up at their expense.

The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

I'd point to the fact that the likes of Jason Doherty has none. If you gave me the option of a straight up choice between Doherty and O'Connor, I'd have Doherty every day. The reason O'Connor gets the plaudits is because his scoring stats are massaged by tap over frees due to Mayo's hard running game which draws loads of frees in front of the posts.

Mayo's first choice forward 6 over the past 7/8 years has been along the lines of:

D O'Connor O'Shea McLoughlin
Moran C O'Connor Doherty

From my own viewpoint, C O'Connor is the weakest of those players from open play and the stats point towards his free taking prowess as decent and not top level.

What plaudits does O'Connor get? He's never included in conversations about top forwards despite his scoring rate being comparable to anyone. He contributes plenty from open play between scores and assists.

I like Jason Doherty but his main qualities are as a ball winner. Doesn't have the creativity or scoring prowess that Cillian has. When he's out (e.g. vs Roscommon last year) we're far less of a team.

The don't foul guy has some interesting stats and graphs up on free takers over the past 4/5/6/7 years.

I think those of us who are on the side of O'Connor being overrated are probably proven correct here.

He has one all star. How is that overrated?

Just a couple of days away now.  Anyone expect big changes in form with no crowds there or will it just be the same as before.  I of course am hoping things will be slightly different 

I am interested to hear the player shouts etc.  I am sure it wont be long until the Daily Mail has a headline about Sterling's use of foul language 

I thought the fake crowd noise worked ok in the La Liga games I watched over the weekend.

I was watching the Bundesliga yesterday. The ball was put out of play due to an injury, Schalke were expecting Leverkusen to give it back to them but a Leverkusen player went through on goal and tried to score. The fake crowd whistled at that player for the next 10 minutes!

For 12 games!! Nearly 1/3 of next season. Pity James Mcclean didnt get the same support.

Do they not mean the 2 games on Wednesday and the 10 over next weekend? Surely not 12 rounds of games.