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Was just thinking there about various factors (outside of training and practicing a lot) that help a Player develop into a great player.

Being the youngest in a family of lads who plays football - Cillian and Diarmuid O'Coonor, Michael Meehan and Colin Cooper come to mind.

Being given the role as free taker from an early age.

Having pull. If you come from a strong GAA family, your dad is the coach, etc. You'll get more chances to shine.

If you play for a good club with good players.

Learning from Players in your club that have played at the highest level.

Good coach(es) in your club.

Being a nippy little fûcker. The rest can be thaught.

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 26, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
Was just thinking there about various factors (outside of training and practicing a lot) that help a Player develop into a great player.

Being the youngest in a family of lads who plays football - Cillian and Diarmuid O'Coonor, Michael Meehan and Colin Cooper come to mind.

Being given the role as free taker from an early age.

Having pull. If you come from a strong GAA family, your dad is the coach, etc. You'll get more chances to shine.

If you play for a good club with good players.

Learning from Players in your club that have played at the highest level.

Good coach(es) in your club.

Who is that guy?

Quote from: Ball Hopper on November 27, 2017, 04:38:22 AM

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 26, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
Was just thinking there about various factors (outside of training and practicing a lot) that help a Player develop into a great player.

Being the youngest in a family of lads who plays football - Cillian and Diarmuid O'Coonor, Michael Meehan and Colin Cooper come to mind.

Being given the role as free taker from an early age.

Having pull. If you come from a strong GAA family, your dad is the coach, etc. You'll get more chances to shine.

If you play for a good club with good players.

Learning from Players in your club that have played at the highest level.

Good coach(es) in your club.

Who is that guy?

The lad who played for Middlesbrough and Forest. Not the Gooch! :P

Having a big back garden.

Having no chores to do as a kid.

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 26, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
Was just thinking there about various factors (outside of training and practicing a lot) that help a Player develop into a great player.

Being the youngest in a family of lads who plays football - Cillian and Diarmuid O'Coonor, Michael Meehan and Colin Cooper come to mind.

Being given the role as free taker from an early age.

Having pull. If you come from a strong GAA family, your dad is the coach, etc. You'll get more chances to shine.

If you play for a good club with good players.

Learning from Players in your club that have played at the highest level.

Good coach(es) in your club.

Growing up in a  culture where excellence is encouraged

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 26, 2017, 11:32:02 PM
Was just thinking there about various factors (outside of training and practicing a lot) that help a Player develop into a great player.

Being the youngest in a family of lads who plays football - Cillian and Diarmuid O'Coonor, Michael Meehan and Colin Cooper come to mind.

Being given the role as free taker from an early age.

Having pull. If you come from a strong GAA family, your dad is the coach, etc. You'll get more chances to shine.

If you play for a good club with good players.

Learning from Players in your club that have played at the highest level.

Good coach(es) in your club.

Being naturally tall/strong/fast would be an advantage, things that can't be trained at a young age. Strength can be improved to a degree when older and speed ever so slightly but you get what I'm saying.

I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

Having parents who are not afraid to switch off the wireless router.

From a young age? Encouragement.

Too many youngsters are discarded very early on now with the win at all costs mentality in the games.

Being from a country club - less distractions

practice practice preactise.
being from a football mad family who recognize the benefit of the hours you put in and not think what a waste of time

Good thread, especially if you have kids.

My eldest is 9 now and he is always playing a year ahead of himself. He was born in January and up until last year he was always struggling a bit but now he realizes how he can use his pace better and so he's nearly always first to the ball before his man (or his team mates)

I keep encouraging everything he does but this year I've especially been telling him how he can use his speed far far more to get to the ball before others and not to be standing back waiting for others to take the initiative as he has a tendency to do. He's enjoying it much more now and the coaches don't know now whether he should continue as a reliable defender or push him further up  the field.

I hope the 6 year old makes as good of progress as at the minute he's doesn't even want the ball.

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

Quote from: rosnarun on November 27, 2017, 10:45:12 AM
practice practice preactise.
being from a football mad family who recognize the benefit of the hours you put in and not think what a waste of time

Yes, I realise practice is the main ingredient. But what I'm looking for is peripheral factors that help a player without him consciously knowing/trying.

Hating to lose

A good wall at the side of the house!

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

Coached from an early age to play with the head up.

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 27, 2017, 01:51:48 PM
A good wall at the side of the house!

A good wall at the side of the house is a bit like a big back garden and a trailer load of siblings. They only help if you practice....which was ruled out in your first post.

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

I do. I know fellas who had talent hanging out of them. Seen it at underage and senior level. Boys who simply didn't want to know, were lazy and preferred pints or chasing women; but when it came to it they could still play a match with poor fitness and still be able to stand out above the rest.

Quote from: mrhardyannual on November 27, 2017, 02:10:34 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 27, 2017, 01:51:48 PM
A good wall at the side of the house!

A good wall at the side of the house is a bit like a big back garden and a trailer load of siblings. They only help if you practice....which was ruled out in your first post.

I understand that practice is important. I'm looking at Peripheral factors. The Wall at the side of the house is a peripheral factor.  Things that are sometimes not planned and can fall on a good players lap to help them progress.

I train underage and love to look at these factors all the time.

- no neighbours working night shift
- no housewive neighbour with a sharp breadknife
- no neighbours with an award winning garden and/or glasshouse
- no neighbours constantly hanging out bed sheets

Parents who are interested enough to ferry you around to training and games in your childhood and teens.

Birthdate is a big one. Have heard it said there is proof out there (somewhere) that those born in January tend to have more chance getting on well at sport. Makes sense in GAA given that some boys on the pitch will be 2 years younger than you.

Enthusiastic parents involved with the club I would say helps alot.

The secondary school you go to could have a big influence also.

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

There isn't much on here  I agree with you on Syferus, but you have summed that up well  ;D

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

For the record.
I remember Stephen O'Neill as a 5 year old kid coming down to his uncles house just beside us I dont I EVER saw him WITHOUT a ball. EVER! Well maybe on Sunday when he went in to mass with his parents.

Yes there was good football skill & hard workers in both his parents families but to me the lad just loved football and he always had a ball in his hand.

Also, a hurling lad at my club in Clontarf was telling me how you never see our U10s walking around with a hurl but if you look at other clubs like Vincents you'll see loads of lads who just have the hurley with them all the time.

Kids brought up with/minded by a much older generation or too many women. Or no male influence on a lad.

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

Come on now. Skill is a set of traits, be it balance, vision etc. Are you really saying that you or I could have been a Messi or a Maurice Fitzgerald given the correct circumstances. That attitude is BS, and it translates to all aspects of life be it intelligence or anything else. In honesty it piles too much pressure on young lads in particular as society tells them they have themselves to blame for their inadequacies.

Quote from: TheOptimist on November 27, 2017, 05:25:30 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

Come on now. Skill is a set of traits, be it balance, vision etc. Are you really saying that you or I could have been a Messi or a Maurice Fitzgerald given the correct circumstances. That attitude is BS, and it translates to all aspects of life be it intelligence or anything else. In honesty it piles too much pressure on young lads in particular as society tells them they have themselves to blame for their inadequacies.

Yes. Messi needed regular HGH injections to grow to his current less-than-towering size - if he'd been born any time before he was, or didn't have the benefit of a benefactor, he would never have become the player he was. He would have been unlikely to be a footballer at all. You literally chose an example that proves nurture over nature while attempting to prove the opposite, indeed the most extreme example of it you could have found.

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 05:31:32 PM

Quote from: TheOptimist on November 27, 2017, 05:25:30 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

Come on now. Skill is a set of traits, be it balance, vision etc. Are you really saying that you or I could have been a Messi or a Maurice Fitzgerald given the correct circumstances. That attitude is BS, and it translates to all aspects of life be it intelligence or anything else. In honesty it piles too much pressure on young lads in particular as society tells them they have themselves to blame for their inadequacies.

Yes. Messi needed regular HGH injections to grow to his current less-than-towering size - if he'd been born any time before he was, or didn't have the benefit of a benefactor, he would never have become the player he was. He would have been unlikely to be a footballer at all. You literally chose an example that proves nurture over nature while attempting to prove the opposite, indeed the most extreme example of it you could have found.

It doesn't prove nurture over nature. Messi still had that something special. The growth hormones didn't make him more skillful. He may not have made it as a professional but he still would have had the touch of genius. You are mistaking successful for talent.

Parentage is the no 1 factor in my book. I was involved in greyhounds a bit years ago and it struck me that in both codes nothing beats parentage.

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 05:38:31 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 05:31:32 PM

Quote from: TheOptimist on November 27, 2017, 05:25:30 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

Come on now. Skill is a set of traits, be it balance, vision etc. Are you really saying that you or I could have been a Messi or a Maurice Fitzgerald given the correct circumstances. That attitude is BS, and it translates to all aspects of life be it intelligence or anything else. In honesty it piles too much pressure on young lads in particular as society tells them they have themselves to blame for their inadequacies.

Yes. Messi needed regular HGH injections to grow to his current less-than-towering size - if he'd been born any time before he was, or didn't have the benefit of a benefactor, he would never have become the player he was. He would have been unlikely to be a footballer at all. You literally chose an example that proves nurture over nature while attempting to prove the opposite, indeed the most extreme example of it you could have found.

It doesn't prove nurture over nature. Messi still had that something special. The growth hormones didn't make him more skillful. He may not have made it as a professional but he still would have had the touch of genius. You are mistaking successful for talent.

You're mistaking hard work and passion for magic.

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 05:38:31 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 05:31:32 PM

Quote from: TheOptimist on November 27, 2017, 05:25:30 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

Come on now. Skill is a set of traits, be it balance, vision etc. Are you really saying that you or I could have been a Messi or a Maurice Fitzgerald given the correct circumstances. That attitude is BS, and it translates to all aspects of life be it intelligence or anything else. In honesty it piles too much pressure on young lads in particular as society tells them they have themselves to blame for their inadequacies.

Yes. Messi needed regular HGH injections to grow to his current less-than-towering size - if he'd been born any time before he was, or didn't have the benefit of a benefactor, he would never have become the player he was. He would have been unlikely to be a footballer at all. You literally chose an example that proves nurture over nature while attempting to prove the opposite, indeed the most extreme example of it you could have found.

It doesn't prove nurture over nature. Messi still had that something special. The growth hormones didn't make him more skillful. He may not have made it as a professional but he still would have had the touch of genius. You are mistaking successful for talent.

So you think Messi was just born with innate talent for soccer?
It wasnt something that he learned and perfected over many years of practice? It wasn't influenced by the coaching he received? The attitudes of the people he grew up with and by his parents?
It wasn't influenced by luck and circumstance?

It was all just some magic?

The greyhound anaology makes the most sense. You are born with natural ability/skill/inner qualities. These come from genetics, nothing else. Explain the O'Se's, Meehans, Donnellans, McGuigan's, Brogan's. Superior genes mixed with a good work ethic. Now these boys may not have utilised the gifts they were born with (they did), but they got off to a better start than most. An ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

P.S I read another post that talked about a good wall at the side of a house. The greatest footballer/greatest clutch footballer to ever grace the green fields of Ireland, God or as is he known by us commoners Peter the Great needed only a trailer to practice his kicking with both feet.

Quote from: Therealdonald on November 27, 2017, 06:50:12 PM
The greyhound anaology makes the most sense. You are born with natural ability/skill/inner qualities. These come from genetics, nothing else. Explain the O'Se's, Meehans, Donnellans, McGuigan's, Brogan's. Superior genes mixed with a good work ethic. Now these boys may not have utilised the gifts they were born with (they did), but they got off to a better start than most. An ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

P.S I read another post that talked about a good wall at the side of a house. The greatest footballer/greatest clutch footballer to ever grace the green fields of Ireland, God or as is he known by us commoners Peter the Great needed only a trailer to practice his kicking with both feet.

I'd explain that they often got more of a chance than lads from mortal families. That said I'll put down both of our arguments by saying that of the great Kerry team of the 70's and 80's only about 10% or less had sons who went on to play for Kerry.

Anyway this is going away from what I was really looking for.

Quote from: Therealdonald on November 27, 2017, 06:50:12 PM
The greyhound anaology makes the most sense. You are born with natural ability/skill/inner qualities. These come from genetics, nothing else. Explain the O'Se's, Meehans, Donnellans, McGuigan's, Brogan's. Superior genes mixed with a good work ethic. Now these boys may not have utilised the gifts they were born with (they did), but they got off to a better start than most. An ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

P.S I read another post that talked about a good wall at the side of a house. The greatest footballer/greatest clutch footballer to ever grace the green fields of Ireland, God or as is he known by us commoners Peter the Great needed only a trailer to practice his kicking with both feet.

There's little genetically superior about families you mentioned. You ignore the environmental advantages being born into a footballing family bring and place it all in some sort of eugenics basket.

Michael Murphy was born with genetic advantages, but the O'Ses, the Meehans, the Canavans, the Brogans, not so much. Explain the fact Paidi O'Se's son was never good enough for Kerry despite his supposed genetic advantages?

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 07:12:57 PM

Quote from: Therealdonald on November 27, 2017, 06:50:12 PM
The greyhound anaology makes the most sense. You are born with natural ability/skill/inner qualities. These come from genetics, nothing else. Explain the O'Se's, Meehans, Donnellans, McGuigan's, Brogan's. Superior genes mixed with a good work ethic. Now these boys may not have utilised the gifts they were born with (they did), but they got off to a better start than most. An ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

P.S I read another post that talked about a good wall at the side of a house. The greatest footballer/greatest clutch footballer to ever grace the green fields of Ireland, God or as is he known by us commoners Peter the Great needed only a trailer to practice his kicking with both feet.

There's little genetically superior about families you mentioned. You ignore the environmental advantages being born into a footballing family bring and place it all in some sort of eugenics basket.

Michael Murphy was born with genetic advantages, but the O'Ses, the Meehans, the Canavans, the Brogans, not so much. Explain the fact Paidi O'Se's son was never good enough for Kerry despite his supposed genetic advantages?

So you're going to use Paidi O'Se as an example when his 3 nephews are multi time allstars and 2 of them players of the year?? Do you follow horse breeding? Same thing. Literally science proves this when it comes to fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. You are born quick. Those that tend to disagree with this are only doing so because they themselves are afraid of their inadequacies being passed on. I'm not saying thats the case, what I'm saying is that natural ability is something that some individuals are born with. The hard working naturally gifted player will always trump the hard working non-natural gifted player. Doesn't mean the rest don't try, they just have to try harder.

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 07:12:57 PM

Quote from: Therealdonald on November 27, 2017, 06:50:12 PM
The greyhound anaology makes the most sense. You are born with natural ability/skill/inner qualities. These come from genetics, nothing else. Explain the O'Se's, Meehans, Donnellans, McGuigan's, Brogan's. Superior genes mixed with a good work ethic. Now these boys may not have utilised the gifts they were born with (they did), but they got off to a better start than most. An ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

P.S I read another post that talked about a good wall at the side of a house. The greatest footballer/greatest clutch footballer to ever grace the green fields of Ireland, God or as is he known by us commoners Peter the Great needed only a trailer to practice his kicking with both feet.

There's little genetically superior about families you mentioned. You ignore the environmental advantages being born into a footballing family bring and place it all in some sort of eugenics basket.

Michael Murphy was born with genetic advantages, but the O'Ses, the Meehans, the Canavans, the Brogans, not so much. Explain the fact Paidi O'Se's son was never good enough for Kerry despite his supposed genetic advantages?

Páidí's son is a fairly handy footballer. May be called in yet. Got MOTM in either the Kerry IFC final or the Munster Semi-Final.

Quote from: LooseCannon on November 27, 2017, 07:33:39 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 07:12:57 PM

Quote from: Therealdonald on November 27, 2017, 06:50:12 PM
The greyhound anaology makes the most sense. You are born with natural ability/skill/inner qualities. These come from genetics, nothing else. Explain the O'Se's, Meehans, Donnellans, McGuigan's, Brogan's. Superior genes mixed with a good work ethic. Now these boys may not have utilised the gifts they were born with (they did), but they got off to a better start than most. An ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

P.S I read another post that talked about a good wall at the side of a house. The greatest footballer/greatest clutch footballer to ever grace the green fields of Ireland, God or as is he known by us commoners Peter the Great needed only a trailer to practice his kicking with both feet.

There's little genetically superior about families you mentioned. You ignore the environmental advantages being born into a footballing family bring and place it all in some sort of eugenics basket.

Michael Murphy was born with genetic advantages, but the O'Ses, the Meehans, the Canavans, the Brogans, not so much. Explain the fact Paidi O'Se's son was never good enough for Kerry despite his supposed genetic advantages?

Páidí's son is a fairly handy footballer. May be called in yet. Got MOTM in either the Kerry IFC final or the Munster Semi-Final.

The Kerry final, which I already knew. A far cry from Croke Park in September on the ladder.

I reckon he has a better chance of making Kerry then you  have of getting 2 minutes in a junior D game ever

Quote from: Orchard park on November 27, 2017, 07:47:39 PM
I reckon he has a better chance of making Kerry then you  have of getting 2 minutes in a junior D game ever

That means you think he has over a 100% chance of playing for Kerry.

A civil war in Roscommon. ;D ;D

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Orchard park on November 27, 2017, 07:47:39 PM
I reckon he has a better chance of making Kerry then you  have of getting 2 minutes in a junior D game ever

That means you think he has over a 100% chance of playing for Kerry.

One could equally interpret I believing him to have a 1 % chance........

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Quote from: Orchard park on November 27, 2017, 08:06:15 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Orchard park on November 27, 2017, 07:47:39 PM
I reckon he has a better chance of making Kerry then you  have of getting 2 minutes in a junior D game ever

That means you think he has over a 100% chance of playing for Kerry.

One could equally interpret I believing him to have a 1 % chance........

Nope.

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 08:22:00 PM

Quote from: Orchard park on November 27, 2017, 08:06:15 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Orchard park on November 27, 2017, 07:47:39 PM
I reckon he has a better chance of making Kerry then you  have of getting 2 minutes in a junior D game ever

That means you think he has over a 100% chance of playing for Kerry.

One could equally interpret I believing him to have a 1 % chance........

Nope.

Haven't read through the thread but Bounce by Matthew Syed  is a great read about this stuff. Might have already been mentioned here

Genetics give kid a head start in terms of Athletic ability, speed agility etc.  it doesn't make them a good footballer. From there practice, aggression (controlled), will to win, interest in the game and very encouraging parents are needed. The most important is practicing the skills

Quote from: TheOptimist on November 27, 2017, 03:40:12 PM
Birthdate is a big one. Have heard it said there is proof out there (somewhere) that those born in January tend to have more chance getting on well at sport. Makes sense in GAA given that some boys on the pitch will be 2 years younger than you.

Enthusiastic parents involved with the club I would say helps alot.

The secondary school you go to could have a big influence also.

I seen that in a book, Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, he has statistics for the NHL that show kids born in the first third of the year have a better chance to make it to the pros but that generally was the case years back when physically bigger kids tended to dominate games to the point that smaller kids gave up. When he says bigger that is assuming that kids grow at similar pace so a kid born in Jan will have ~12 months of additional growth over a Dec kid of the same year. That was also in the days when 10-14 kids were put on the ice and a puck thrown out there for a game.
Today there is more focus of skills, Kids can't have any physical contact until they are older so to enable skills development. If you look at todays statistics there is a much more even spread throughout the year playing in the NHL. 

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 05:55:09 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 05:38:31 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 05:31:32 PM

Quote from: TheOptimist on November 27, 2017, 05:25:30 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 04:26:31 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

Such as?
How can you say they didn't learn it?
Where did it come from then?
They may have been subjected to a different set of circumstances or a different environment than was typical growing up that aided the development of that skill, but i don't believe that anyone is just born with an innate talent for something.
Like syferus says, physical traits can certainly help, but pretty much everything else can be coached/taught.

Come on now. Skill is a set of traits, be it balance, vision etc. Are you really saying that you or I could have been a Messi or a Maurice Fitzgerald given the correct circumstances. That attitude is BS, and it translates to all aspects of life be it intelligence or anything else. In honesty it piles too much pressure on young lads in particular as society tells them they have themselves to blame for their inadequacies.

Yes. Messi needed regular HGH injections to grow to his current less-than-towering size - if he'd been born any time before he was, or didn't have the benefit of a benefactor, he would never have become the player he was. He would have been unlikely to be a footballer at all. You literally chose an example that proves nurture over nature while attempting to prove the opposite, indeed the most extreme example of it you could have found.

It doesn't prove nurture over nature. Messi still had that something special. The growth hormones didn't make him more skillful. He may not have made it as a professional but he still would have had the touch of genius. You are mistaking successful for talent.

So you think Messi was just born with innate talent for soccer?
It wasnt something that he learned and perfected over many years of practice? It wasn't influenced by the coaching he received? The attitudes of the people he grew up with and by his parents?
It wasn't influenced by luck and circumstance?

It was all just some magic?

This is going around in circles. I didn't mention magic. Of course other influences helped Messi to become a professional footballer. That's not what I'm debating. There is an inate ability which was not learned.
I was an average footballer who trained hard, practiced every day, had a very talented father, decent coaching and all the rest. My brother was much better than me but trained if he wanted to and wasn't interested in practising. So by your reckoning somewhere between birth and 8 or so when we started playing structured football he gained an advantage which made him a better player? Maybe it was because he climbed more trees or liked bananas?

Quote from: Muck Savage on November 27, 2017, 09:10:06 PM
Genetics give kid a head start in terms of Athletic ability, speed agility etc.  it doesn't make them a good footballer. From there practice, aggression (controlled), will to win, interest in the game and very encouraging parents are needed. The most important is practicing the skills

This

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 10:21:39 PM

Quote from: Muck Savage on November 27, 2017, 09:10:06 PM
Genetics give kid a head start in terms of Athletic ability, speed agility etc.  it doesn't make them a good footballer. From there practice, aggression (controlled), will to win, interest in the game and very encouraging parents are needed. The most important is practicing the skills

This

Agree.

There's a few Irish basketball players that undoubtedly inherited athletic ability, hand/eye coordination through the genes, but some of their parents wouldn't have seen a basketball court till the 60's much less shot some hoops. These lads had passion and commitment to practice their skills until they became good enough.

There was a lad from Offaly that made NBA, he undoubtedly had the right support around him from a parenting and a coaching perspective but I suspect the majority of his success came from his own discipline, and hours upon hours upon hours of practice.

Think it was Gary Player that said, 'the harder I practice the luckier I seem to get'.

The Sports Gene by David Epstein is well worth a read.

Total avoidance of all types of nonsense posted on gaaboard.com  ;D ;D ;D

Good pair of boots. Was sold an auld pair of Blackthorn boots that must have been sitting on a shop shelf for over forty years or more. I was told that's what the legends of the past wore. I could neither run nor shoot straight with them.

how about Brothers
after all the best players are not always the most skillful or best physical specimens,
but one absolute must is a mad desire to play and will to win  every ball .
the best place you learn this is at home knocking lump out of brothers and neighbors you would rather Die than lose to .
Even the very gifted have to learn if messi stayed in the bar telling every one how he played a bit of mior for the county that's where he still would be and pubs are full of them

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2017, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Its an interesting discussion this.
Where do they learn it though?
For me, I could spend hours and hours trying but Id never be able to do the Cruyff turn. Catching a ball pon the other hand came naturally - although practise helped

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2017, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Its an interesting discussion this.
Where do they learn it though?
For me, I could spend hours and hours trying but Id never be able to do the Cruyff turn. Catching a ball pon the other hand came naturally - although practise helped

If your ball control and agility isn't good enough to do a fecking Cruyff turn you improve those first, not endlessly attempt a difficult move..

Quote from: Syferus on November 28, 2017, 01:58:01 PM

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2017, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Its an interesting discussion this.
Where do they learn it though?
For me, I could spend hours and hours trying but Id never be able to do the Cruyff turn. Catching a ball pon the other hand came naturally - although practise helped

If your ball control and agility isn't good enough to do a fecking Cruyff turn you improve those first, not endlessly attempt a difficult move..

Which is what I meant. Not that I'm bothered, that wasn't/isn't my game in soccer, it was just an example

Quote from: weareros on November 28, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Good pair of boots. Was sold an auld pair of Blackthorn boots that must have been sitting on a shop shelf for over forty years or more. I was told that's what the legends of the past wore. I could neither run nor shoot straight with them.

Snap. They were wicked as a full back if you had to take the kick outs.

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 03:00:39 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 28, 2017, 01:58:01 PM

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2017, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Its an interesting discussion this.
Where do they learn it though?
For me, I could spend hours and hours trying but Id never be able to do the Cruyff turn. Catching a ball pon the other hand came naturally - although practise helped

If your ball control and agility isn't good enough to do a fecking Cruyff turn you improve those first, not endlessly attempt a difficult move..

Which is what I meant. Not that I'm bothered, that wasn't/isn't my game in soccer, it was just an example

This is a roundabout argument. Agree hard work is needed to become a top player. Through hard work, practice and greater passion you can become better. But try as I might, and I put many hours in, I was shite at running with a gaelic football.

Quote from: ned on November 28, 2017, 03:27:10 PM

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 03:00:39 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 28, 2017, 01:58:01 PM

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2017, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Its an interesting discussion this.
Where do they learn it though?
For me, I could spend hours and hours trying but Id never be able to do the Cruyff turn. Catching a ball pon the other hand came naturally - although practise helped

If your ball control and agility isn’t good enough to do a fecking Cruyff turn you improve those first, not endlessly attempt a difficult move..

Which is what I meant. Not that I'm bothered, that wasn't/isn't my game in soccer, it was just an example

This is a roundabout argument. Agree hard work is needed to become a top player. Through hard work, practice and greater passion you can become better. But try as I might, and I put many hours in, I was shite at running with a gaelic football.

Sometimes you need a coach to teach you the more difficult aspects of the game I deally that would start as young as possible such as a parent of older sibling

I think tradition is a big thing. If you come from a parish that is winning, used to winning and expects to win you will prosper. Its not the same if you come from a junior club that always struggles and people around the place don't give a shit.

I also think the number of kids at your age group is a factor. For example the ideal number would be around 20 kids. If you are small and only have say 13 you are grand until you pass U12 and then you start pulling in younger kids to make up the numbers when the inevitable couple drop out. That brings your standard down and you end up competing in lower levels which in turn reduces your capacity to improve.

Quote from: ned on November 28, 2017, 03:27:10 PM

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 03:00:39 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 28, 2017, 01:58:01 PM

Quote from: tonto1888 on November 28, 2017, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2017, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 04:10:18 PM

Quote from: Syferus on November 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on November 27, 2017, 02:08:48 PM

Quote from: ned on November 27, 2017, 12:38:11 PM

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
I know people with brutal hand to eye coordination and poor at sports, and seen people capable of taking to any sport right away. Can hand to eye coordination be taught or just instinctive?

You are either a natural or your not. However, beyond that, practice and hard work are needed no matter your skill levels. You can learn to kick with your weaker foot, you can train to be able to jump higher, you can learn how to deal better with situations with experience. So I guess better hand to eye coordination can be learned. Take one good and one average sportsman, with the less skillful one putting in the hours of practice, I reckon the average player will have more success. I'm sure most of us know players within our clubs who had all the talent but did not progress as they were lazy, not dedicated or whatever. Very few make it to the top without hard graft.

i dont believe that for a minute

?
Do you believe everyone is born with the same ability?

People are born with zero skill. They may have physical traits that help them. Size and speed are the two biggest ones, though even speed can be gained with the right training. Agility, balance, vision, skill, temperament and everything else can be taught. Give me a team of kids who are disciplined and good learners above anything else.

That's Patently wrong. Throughout the history of any sport there have been examples of players who have that wee bit extra, a touch of genius. That cannot be learned.

bull
they learn that somewhere or see it being done

Its an interesting discussion this.
Where do they learn it though?
For me, I could spend hours and hours trying but Id never be able to do the Cruyff turn. Catching a ball pon the other hand came naturally - although practise helped

If your ball control and agility isn't good enough to do a fecking Cruyff turn you improve those first, not endlessly attempt a difficult move..

Which is what I meant. Not that I'm bothered, that wasn't/isn't my game in soccer, it was just an example

This is a roundabout argument. Agree hard work is needed to become a top player. Through hard work, practice and greater passion you can become better. But try as I might, and I put many hours in, I was shite at running with a gaelic football.

My point was that some things come more naturally than others

I think it's really quite simple there are definitely kids born with more talent than their peers which means if they work as hard as their peers they will be better than them. Lots of factors help make a person the player they become but we aren't all born equal. If we could all reach exceptional standards when provided the same environment in which to develop then exceptional players would be far more common. If you took 100 kids from birth and provided them with the exact same developmental environment (sport, music, education and everything else) there would be some exceptional kids, some very weak ones and the majority across the spectrum between those extremes.

if you're brought up in a culture of watching great players perform the skills at the highest level, you will try to mimic them
similarly, bad habits are learned by watching poor examples of technique

children learn so much by observing, (over and over again) and then retrying the situation in informal play eg school yard, back garden, low pressure matches.
its why children need to go to live games
its why they also need to see good players training (skill development)

Henry Sheflin was not an outstanding young player, but kept on developing through to adulthood

Spatcial awareness, the ability to play with the head up and being tactically aware of the strengths and weaknesses of your own players and the opposition..

Timing, when to play a pass, when to shoot, when to draw a foul and when take one for the team.

Perfecting the basics and developing the skills before under 10!

Creating a passion and a will to win and learn from the mistakes..

But ultimately making sure they enjoy it

Feck, I wish I could go back >:(

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 28, 2017, 11:11:15 PM
Spatcial awareness, the ability to play with the head up and being tactically aware of the strengths and weaknesses of your own players and the opposition..

Timing, when to play a pass, when to shoot, when to draw a foul and when take one for the team.

Perfecting the basics and developing the skills before under 10!

Creating a passion and a will to win and learn from the mistakes..

But ultimately making sure they enjoy it

Feck, I wish I could go back >:(

You're describing what a good player is as opposed to how you get there...

Messi had two older brothers, good players, that he played with for hours on end on pitch at back of his house. He was youngest on Newell old boys team that went unbeaten for 8 years...playing with older bigger players of excellent standard. We all know the excellent underage player who never made it, prob down to running the gauntlet and when others physically caught up their advantage left them short on other skills. Messis father was also a soccer coach. He wasn't just popped out a superstar.
Number of accounts of Ronaldo spending extra hours on free kicks etc when @ utd. Think I read It in Roy Keane's book bout ronaldo s phenomenal training routine too
Dublin run a shooting drill that became very competitive & remember seeing that eoghan o gara was biggest improved over the year matching b brogan by end of it.

Quote from: DuffleKing on November 28, 2017, 11:44:35 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 28, 2017, 11:11:15 PM
Spatcial awareness, the ability to play with the head up and being tactically aware of the strengths and weaknesses of your own players and the opposition..

Timing, when to play a pass, when to shoot, when to draw a foul and when take one for the team.

Perfecting the basics and developing the skills before under 10!

Creating a passion and a will to win and learn from the mistakes..

But ultimately making sure they enjoy it

Feck, I wish I could go back >:(

You're describing what a good player is as opposed to how you get there...

Sorry, I meant to say, teach/coach a player to understand spatial awareness and timing

Having the skill, physical attributes is one thing. The most important thing successful sports people have is a head that's right. A belief in themselves. A good coach can help but really it down to yourself.

God

Quote from: mrhardyannual on November 29, 2017, 01:43:55 PM
God

God if he lives up to his name is a neutral observer!

Quote from: Buckass on November 29, 2017, 12:45:02 AM
Messi had two older brothers, good players, that he played with for hours on end on pitch at back of his house. He was youngest on Newell old boys team that went unbeaten for 8 years...playing with older bigger players of excellent standard. We all know the excellent underage player who never made it, prob down to running the gauntlet and when others physically caught up their advantage left them short on other skills. Messis father was also a soccer coach. He wasn't just popped out a superstar.
Number of accounts of Ronaldo spending extra hours on free kicks etc when @ utd. Think I read It in Roy Keane's book bout ronaldo s phenomenal training routine too
Dublin run a shooting drill that became very competitive & remember seeing that eoghan o gara was biggest improved over the year matching b brogan by end of it.

Classic example of "The younger brother is even better"

Quote from: Zulu on November 28, 2017, 04:37:01 PM
I think it's really quite simple there are definitely kids born with more talent than their peers which means if they work as hard as their peers they will be better than them. Lots of factors help make a person the player they become but we aren't all born equal. If we could all reach exceptional standards when provided the same environment in which to develop then exceptional players would be far more common. If you took 100 kids from birth and provided them with the exact same developmental environment (sport, music, education and everything else) there would be some exceptional kids, some very weak ones and the majority across the spectrum between those extremes.

But ...

]http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/why-birthdays-are-one-of-the-big-problems-affecting-irish-soccer-464885.html[url] (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/why-birthdays-are-one-of-the-big-problems-affecting-irish-soccer-464885.html%5Burl)[/url]

Tipperary Coiste na nÓg had a christmas message for expectant mothers, and telling husbands and family members to help out so they could take it easy. Basically so they could reach the 1st of January :) :)

The difference in your sporting career to be born on in the first week of January as opposed to the last week in December can not be under estimated! There is only a couple of day separating both Birthdays, but there is a wealth of opportunity if you have a January Birthday!

And if you are born in January you get two presents as well.

Good physique, tall and big hands are the 3 most important things I'd say.

Apart from the desire and will to do it, and the will to train the conditions to create that drive is massively important.
If you are from a club that is a typical bad junior club i.e. the drinking, half-arsed training and the likes, then the glass ceiling is very low. I spoke about this with a lad from a nearby club as to why our club produced the odd county man down the years and theirs never seemed to.
If his club had a county minor they were the best thing going and they coasted for a few years. In other clubs, you have senior county men to learn from and look up to. You go to the local pitch and you see these lads playing and then you watch them on TV or in Croke Park.
That is a massive thing. Your goals are raised and the whole club has a certain high standard to aim toward.

Parents and coaches giving positive encouragement to make the kids want to do is another HUGE thing. If a kid who could be a late bloomer is feeling crap every time he comes home from a game or training they will hardly do the extra bits in the first place.
I do worry looking at some club coaches and I can see them making football and hurling a chore for kids with their own insecurities.

Being able to kick with both feet, a huge advantage

The fight in the dog.

I think being played in the correct position is definitely a factor.

Coaching would be probably the most important factor though......look at Tom Bradys trajectory, once Bellicheckmgot involved