Time for Joe to go??

[Crete Boom]

Yeah as I typed Mayo I kinda thought twice about it but I think with the influence of Donegal in 2011 & 2102 I felt Mayo, Dublin and Tyrone were trying to counteract their play by playing the same way a bit. In fairness ye weren't very defensive last year but I think Moran has added that steeliness to ye that ye were missing for years.

I think the main problem I have is the way the debate on cynical play (I welcome this debate) is being framed by the soundbites or live meltdowns by a couple of limited TV analysts ( Spillane's puke football and Brolly's Cavanagh rant). If you look at the supposed main offenders i.e Armagh , Donegal Tyrone and (shoehorned in late in the day by Brolly) Mayo.

Dealing with my own county first we have joined the outlawed cast by virtue of the fact we played a hugely cynical last 25 mins against the Dubs in 2012 who were managed by former Trinity classmate of Brolly and friend Pat Gilroy. It annoys me that out of nowhere Brolly suddenly became the leader against this evil due to his friend being downed by one cynical performance by a county Brolly laughed at for years due to the open nature of our play which lost us big games!

With Tyrone it was much the same as in Mickey Harte was desperate to land a first All Ireland knowing this could liberate a talented county by shaking off the failure which had dogged talented Tyrone teams down through the years. He knew Kerry were right at home in fast open game so he jammed it up turned it into a dogfight to give his team an even base to challenge Kerry. Spillane's puke football (a knee jerk reaction to his county being beaten) comment totally erased the great football Tyrone played up till then and by refusing to withdraw or clarify his comment it hung over the 2005 and 2008 victories which Tyrone went toe to toe football wise against the Kingdom and won.Puke football is almost gospel now when in fact it is a view held by a Kerryman who has contempt for Tyrone and Armagh due to defeats of his own county the he couldn't stomach. (see Liam McHale and his failure to get over the loss to Meath in 96!)

Donegal is different but again personally I don't think they are the villians that they are portrayed to be in the media. Granted they had a fair few uber defensive battles (which they initiated) especially in 2011 but if you look at the 2011 and 2012 in full it is interesting that all there best performances were when they played their full court press attacking style football ie. against Kildare in 2011 , Down 2012 , Cork 2012 and the final against us in 2012. Interestingly McGuiness freely admits to being too defensive against the Dubs in 2011 and costing them the match in the process. So even the great villians of Donegal subscribe to the fact that attack is what wins games in the end no matter how tight a defensive system might be.Again Jim's run ins with the media have coloured they way certain journalists portray the debate in regards to Donegal.

Armagh are almost guilty by association by getting to the 2003 final against Tyrone but my memories of the great Armagh team of the noughties is Oisin's record scoring in the Ulster final v Down , the epic semi v Dublin , the comback against Kerry and those great battles with Tyrone in 2005. None of these games got bogged down in cynical defensive play!Some dirty off the ball stuff , yes , but this happens in Mayo Galway games , Cork Kerry etc....

For me the problem is the rules followed by the refs. Now I don't want to say all refs are crap because they are not but the way they are governed and the lack of any sanction for repeated big game gaffs (one big mistake is going to happen after all they are human) or lack of consistant application of the rules are the start and the end of the cynical play problem for me. Pat MacEnaney's comments are a joke whenever quizzed on the hole in the rules or how Refs are selected for intercounty games. Throw in the lack of respect shown by the County boards towards the refs in terms of suspensions and you have a cycle of well meaning mediocrity which lead to holes everywhere for players and management to exploit. Aspiration about ethos and a higher achievement than just winners medals is all great but with the media focusing on these issues while ignoring the basic endemic problems in the system we will just go round in circles till everyone gets tired and drifts away.More self promoting articles from the likes of Brolly are just toilet paper at this stage and will only harden the views in the above so called villain counties against the black card (or any other solution) out of spite for the attempts of being brow beaten by such arrogant empty views.

[DuffleKing]

Completely agree

[BennyHarp]

Fair play Crete Boom, a very good post.

[shawshank]

cracking post

[Applesisapples]

That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.

[rrhf]

That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.

Armaghisapples thats a freakin great porkie pie!
Crete you are on the money.  Lets continue to face this bullshitery down. 

[heganboy]

That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.

Armagh did not lose because of a mistake by the ref. RRHF is correct.
Armagh lost in part due to a significant piece of playacting or indeed cheating. But to be fair, Armagh should have had the game put away at that stage that the playacting and skullduggery shouldn't have mattered, and had DM been on the field for the full 70 (ok 74) minutes, the end result may well have been different. But we'll never know.

I like the rugby review, as well as the coaches challenge in united states of american football. Review rule in the NFL must have evidence to prove the ruling on the field incorrect.

[supersarsfields]

That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.

Armagh did not lose because of a mistake by the ref. RRHF is correct.
Armagh lost in part due to a significant piece of playacting or indeed cheating. But to be fair, Armagh should have had the game put away at that stage that the playacting and skullduggery shouldn't have mattered, and had DM been on the field for the full 70 (ok 74) minutes, the end result may well have been different. But we'll never know.

I like the rugby review, as well as the coaches challenge in united states of american football. Review rule in the NFL must have evidence to prove the ruling on the field incorrect.

Love it.

[Applesisapples]

That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.

Armaghisapples thats a freakin great porkie pie!
Crete you are on the money.  Lets continue to face this bullshitery down.

So why was Marsden's red card rescinded? Ref's mistake or play acting the result was the same Marsden was leading the Armagh comeback and his sending of changed the flow of the game and the result.

[supersarsfields]

This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal. 

Armagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored

[Applesisapples]

This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal. 

Armagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored

Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.

[Nally Stand]

This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal. 

Armagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored

Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.

Being red-carded for striking counts as "being sinned against"?

I miss this thread!

[supersarsfields]

This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal. 

Armagh based their appeal to yesterday’s meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored

Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.

Video evidence did nothing of the sort but I'm glad you accept that Marsden got of on a technicality.

[Bensars]

This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal. 

Armagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored

Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.

Thats complete bollocks !

Armagh had a chance to win it ! ( has this been convieniently erased ?)   They couldnt take that chance. End of story. The attempt to the blame the world for their inability to achieve, although admirable, is laughable !
The Golden era of Armagh football  in the years to come will be remembered as a period whereby much more should have been achieved by a talented panel of players. Translated they underachieved.

[heganboy]

Translated they underachieved.

To say that any team that won their County's first All Ireland underachieved, after the run that they had, is fatuous at best.

They were the most feared team in Ireland for nearly 10 years, and while winning their first and so far only Sam Maguire is what they will be remembered for, 7 Ulster championships in 10 years is a feat only matched by Down (starting in '59) in the modern era. Though to be fair, I don't see Cavan's 29 wins in 41 years (from 1915) being beaten anytime soon...