Time for Joe to go??

[Main Street]

People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him.  There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card.  The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man.  The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.

2 points -

1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.

2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.

But do we know when the referee actually made the decision in his head to send Penrose off - if it were straight away at the time of the incident then why didn't he.  Did he see a replay, or did he just mull over it.  Its possible that Penrose could have been subbed in the intervening period, what would have happened then?  Do referees at County level deal with all substitutions i.e. do they get a wee piece of paper or is that handled separately on the sideline?

Incidents that happen during the half time break appear to be dealt with just before the resumption of the 2nd half.
That's what happened at a league match between Kildare and Monaghan last year in Clones, when a Kildare player was shown a straight red for an 'incident' as the players were walking off at half time.
There is nothing special to read into this practice, not even if the ref had a chat with the officials during half time.

The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man.

How the officials missed the obvious 'just as likely that Mone hit himself' explanation and given Penrose the benefit of a doubt, is a damming indictment of their ability, but perhaps they don't believe in flat earth theories either 
Is there a dearth of 'cop on' in Tyrone? Brian O'Nolan was a Tyrone man wasn't he? Now I know where he got some of his inspiration from.

[thejuice]

I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.

As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a  21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.


As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.

[AZOffaly]

I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.

As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a  21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.


As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.

What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team  a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.

[blewuporstuffed]

I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.

As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a  21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.


As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.

i think thats the flip side in to any rule change to get rid of cynical/dirty play.
If you look at the changes soccer have made over the last number of years to 'clean the game up' out-lawing the tackle form behind, and pretty much all physical contact in the box etc.
It may have worked in one respect, but they now have a possibly even worse blight on the game with diving to win these free kicks and penalties.
There was a time when a player wouldnt have went down in the box looking a penatly unless it was blatantly obvious, because he knew he probably wouldnt get it, whereas now they through themselves to the ground at every opertunity in the hope they will get a decision

with any new stricter rules against cynical fouling, equally strict rules against diving need brought in as well.
You could argue it should have been added to the black card offenses as well to try and deter trying to get an opponent in bother

[thejuice]

What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team  a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.

I don't know about other counties but every Meath possession is an inevitable goal if only the rest of yis would play the game like men. 

[theticklemister]

I was away so havent seen many comments on here about the Brolly/Cavanagh thing but I agree 100% with Brolly.

These things have to stop and this could be as someone said the tipping point
- Tyrone have been serial offenders with the diving, pulling and dragging for years
- They were at it again in the previous round
- The same man in question was highlighted in that game
- Harte's refusual to implement the use of the black card has led to people believing he is protecting his own

These things are all coming home to roost for Tyrone. I cannot comprehend how anyone can condone this behaviour.All against are saying ' it is within the rules of the law', it is not. It is deemed an offence punishable by a yellow card which in my opinion is to light.

Maybe it is me but I like to see everyone allowed to play totheir potential in gaelic games. I have never intentional went out and fouled an opponent in my life and have never stated to anyone that I coach to drag a man down. 'hit him, hit him hard and fair'. I would feel disgusted within myself if I ever did the above.

What Cavanagh did was a disgrace, I cant see how anyone can defend him. He is not the only man but in such a tight game in an all ireland quarter final, with Tyrone man down, and such a clear scoring chance on offer, and done by a person who so blatantly did it last week.......... It is little wonder why people support Brolly.

[sheamy]

I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.

As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a  21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.


As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.

What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team  a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.

That is the absolute centre of the whole thing. That this is now coached and making its way to underage football. In fact, not making as it is already there. All teams do it to one extent or another bar none.

What we have seen in most of the games over the weekend is the natural progression of that. As the game wears on, why risk 'missing' a vital foul when a rugby tackle will secure the deal? That's all that is happening here.

The black card isn't the solution as the offences have been posted on here and none deal with the typical cynical foul which is usually no more than a pull of the arm or jersey to buy 2-3 seconds for the defence.

The Cavanagh thing is a red herring to a certain extent although represents the spirit at the heart of the problem. That so many people say "sure what else was he supposed to do" is indicative of the new culture in the game. We've accepted tactical fouling in all its forms as part and parcel of it. That leads to tolerance of diving, 'grabbing the arm' etc etc.

There have always been bad fouls and cynical play. That isn't the argument and people posting videos of Mickey Ned O'Sullivan getting near decapitated are missing the point.

The problem is that it is now systematic and mainstream because it works. It's a shame because by and large the skills of the game are way superior to what they used to be. At the top of inter-county level at least.

Anyone using the 'whataboutery' defence is doing the game a disservice.

[AZOffaly]

I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.

As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a  21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.


As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.

What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team  a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.

That is the absolute centre of the whole thing. That this is now coached and making its way to underage football. In fact, not making as it is already there. All teams do it to one extent or another bar none.

What we have seen in most of the games over the weekend is the natural progression of that. As the game wears on, why risk 'missing' a vital foul when a rugby tackle will secure the deal? That's all that is happening here.

The black card isn't the solution as the offences have been posted on here and none deal with the typical cynical foul which is usually no more than a pull of the arm or jersey to buy 2-3 seconds for the defence.

The Cavanagh thing is a red herring to a certain extent although represents the spirit at the heart of the problem. That so many people say "sure what else was he supposed to do" is indicative of the new culture in the game. We've accepted tactical fouling in all its forms as part and parcel of it. That leads to tolerance of diving, 'grabbing the arm' etc etc.

There have always been bad fouls and cynical play. That isn't the argument and people posting videos of Mickey Ned O'Sullivan getting near decapitated are missing the point.

The problem is that it is now systematic and mainstream because it works. It's a shame because by and large the skills of the game are way superior to what they used to be. At the top of inter-county level at least.

Anyone using the 'whataboutery' defence is doing the game a disservice.

I agree with all of that sheamy, but I absolutely disagree with any notion that what Sean Cavanagh did is anything new in the game. It's not within the rules, but it's never been within the rules, but it always happens and I can't ever see it not happening. That specific situation is so unique that all rational thought foes out the window. Man through, must stop him. It's primal. The rest I agree 100% with. And I think those pull back (but not down) fouls will either lead to 1 of 2 situations. Either no-one will rugby takle anymore, but they will drag and pull their man in a way that he won't fall, or else fellas who do get dragged (or want to make out they were dragged) will hit the ground to invoke the 'to the ground' portion of the definition. That's going to be fair messy.

[NaomhBridAbú]

To me it's a tipping point moment. This could have been called on any number of tackles in the last five years but it just so happens it's this one. Tough luck on Tyrone being the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar but the shake-down from all this will likely be a positive for the sport as a spectacle and as a whole.

fair point

[AZOffaly]

The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.

I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.

I believe that players further out the field, in less dramatic circumstances will NOT commit similar tackles when the black card comes in.

To me that's the subtle difference here, and why focussing on Cavanagh's tackle is in danger of taking the focus of the real cynicism that doesn't make a highlight reel.

[sheamy]

The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.

I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.

I believe that players further out the field, in less dramatic circumstances will NOT commit similar tackles when the black card comes in.

To me that's the subtle difference here, and why focussing on Cavanagh's tackle is in danger of taking the focus of the real cynicism that doesn't make a highlight reel.

And in a nutshell, that's what three days of recent media coverage, hundreds of hours of FRC meetings, and every GAA delegate in the country at congress has missed.

[Nally Stand]

Excellent article by Paddy Heaney today in the Irish News if any off you know how to put up a screengrab of the online version or anything like that?

[AZOffaly]

I consider myself a bit of a purist. I love free flowing football. I love nice flowing moves with kick and hand pass, and I love great scoring. I also appreciate blocking, near hand tackling, a good shoulder etc etc. In all my years playing football I was never even booked.

Now if I found myself back there I'd probably have a nosebleed first, but would I have dragged down McManus in that situation? Absolutely. Would I deserve a red? Probably. Would I still do it in the same situation? Yes.

[orangeman]

Roy Keane in a champions league semi final lifted a boy into the air and got a 2nd yellow card and missed the champions league final.


He knew what he was at and was happy to take his medicine for the sake of the team.


If next year Sean Cavanagh finds himself in the same situation, he'll do the very same thing.

What will Joe we have to cry about then ?

[HiMucker]

The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.

I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.

I believe that players further out the field, in less dramatic circumstances will NOT commit similar tackles when the black card comes in.

To me that's the subtle difference here, and why focussing on Cavanagh's tackle is in danger of taking the focus of the real cynicism that doesn't make a highlight reel.

I don't know if would AZ.  There was 20 mins left plus he wold have missed the semi for a straight red.  Agree with all your points though.  Anyone thinking Cavanagh had some moral obligation not to foul him needs there head looked at. 
The niggly half pulls and that to break momentum is where the real problem is at.  As players we are encouraged to make these fouls.