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There is an argument re county players missing for the league but as we saw with Clann Éireann walking to their second consecutive league title minus 5 county men, or Cullyhanna with their 3 county men still unable to buy a win the year before last, or even Forkhill this year with their county player still unable to win the junior championship - having county players maybe isn't the be all and end all some are making out.

If we were to revert and decouple league & championship like days of old, Forkhill who are hands down the strongest junior club in Armagh would remain Junior for 2025, Pearse Óg who will be Division 1 next year would remain in Intermediate. Before you know we'd have Division 1 & 2 teams playing f**king Killean and Mullabrack (no disrespect) in the Junior championship.

Of course there is a fair argument to be made supporting the system we use currently. I'm from a junior club myself and can see some the pro's to it, but I'd prefer a system like the one they use in Down. Our current system skews championship gradings more so than decoupling in my opinion.

So what if you have to play a team who are a division above you? I recall Tullysaran losing a junior final in 2010 (to a division 4 team) and the following year they were strong favourites to win it as they were now in division 2. They lost in the first round to Eire Og who were a division 4 team that year (and went on to win it by beating a division 3 team in the final).

Of course our system back then wasn't perfect either. Crossmaglen's dominance at senior led to a huge amount of clubs requesting regrading to intermediate around 2009/2010 and this then had a knock on effect with the junior championship as well. That would be the main reason for having relegation play offs, however unpopular they are.

As for Pearse Og going up to senior next year - they spent 2 years at intermediate and haven't been able to reach a final.  They lost this year to a senior club's reserve team - you could argue that intermediate championship is the level they deserve to be at. If we were in the old system they'd be a middling division 2 team who are struggling to win an intermediate championship.

Regarding Forkhill being 'hands down' the strongest junior team and not winning the championship - I could flip that point and argue that the main reason they found themselves in Junior at all was due to playing without their county players the previous year in the league. In fairness they lost to a decent Collegeland team who were also fancied by a lot of people this year, Forkhill were far from certainties once the semi final draw was made.

Sounds awfully like Championship is your best competition and more of a guide of where a team is at, no?

Well, considering the majority of clubs in Armagh don't have county players, grading them based on a handful of matches in championship as opposed to how they get on over the course of a league campaign seems a bit silly to me.

Not sure if it's been mentioned or not but I genuinely believed for a good few months that there was bits of turnip in club orange and club lemon.

There is an argument re county players missing for the league but as we saw with Clann Éireann walking to their second consecutive league title minus 5 county men, or Cullyhanna with their 3 county men still unable to buy a win the year before last, or even Forkhill this year with their county player still unable to win the junior championship - having county players maybe isn't the be all and end all some are making out.

If we were to revert and decouple league & championship like days of old, Forkhill who are hands down the strongest junior club in Armagh would remain Junior for 2025, Pearse Óg who will be Division 1 next year would remain in Intermediate. Before you know we'd have Division 1 & 2 teams playing f**king Killean and Mullabrack (no disrespect) in the Junior championship.

Of course there is a fair argument to be made supporting the system we use currently. I'm from a junior club myself and can see some the pro's to it, but I'd prefer a system like the one they use in Down. Our current system skews championship gradings more so than decoupling in my opinion.

How does it skew it? I can't see any mismatches across the league or championships? There are no more requests for regrading, no more sneaky favours in league games, everything's uniform across the three grades - you're either senior, intermediate or junior and no more inbetweens.

So what if you have to play a team who are a division above you? I recall Tullysaran losing a junior final in 2010 (to a division 4 team) and the following year they were strong favourites to win it as they were now in division 2. They lost in the first round to Eire Og who were a division 4 team that year (and went on to win it by beating a division 3 team in the final).

I recall that and I believe Culloville were Division 1 around that time too but also playing intermediate and therefore Division 3 clubs - not a very level playing field by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course our system back then wasn't perfect either. Crossmaglen's dominance at senior led to a huge amount of clubs requesting regrading to intermediate around 2009/2010 and this then had a knock on effect with the junior championship as well. That would be the main reason for having relegation play offs, however unpopular they are.

Thankfully Cross have dropped a bit and other clubs have got their act together meaning a much more open SFC. Our current system encourages clubs to aim for a higher level rather than drop down to play for an easy run at a championship.

As for Pearse Og going up to senior next year - they spent 2 years at intermediate and haven't been able to reach a final.  They lost this year to a senior club's reserve team - you could argue that intermediate championship is the level they deserve to be at. If we were in the old system they'd be a middling division 2 team who are struggling to win an intermediate championship.

All you've argued here is the beauty of championship football. Ógs probably will struggle next year at senior but over the course of this year in the league they've shown better consistency than the other intermediate teams. Their reward is senior football. If you don't reward via the leagues we go back to having meaningless shite like they have in other counties like Derry, Cavan or Antrim.

Regarding Forkhill being 'hands down' the strongest junior team and not winning the championship - I could flip that point and argue that the main reason they found themselves in Junior at all was due to playing without their county players the previous year in the league. In fairness they lost to a decent Collegeland team who were also fancied by a lot of people this year, Forkhill were far from certainties once the semi final draw was made.

They were most people's favourites and also league champions. Again the beauty of championship football, no one at the start of the year would have fancied APM to reach the final. You're pointing to counties like Cavan, where you'd open up the possibility of much stronger clubs playing Intermediate and Junior if we ever went back to decoupling leagues & championships.

In Armagh the leagues and championships are linked. Promotion is via league/championship and relegation via the league. It makes for condensed, balanced, fair and competitive league structures with virtually no dead rubbers as teams are seeded for championship based on league standing.

There is an argument re county players missing for the league but as we saw with Clann Éireann walking to their second consecutive league title minus 5 county men, or Cullyhanna with their 3 county men still unable to buy a win the year before last, or even Forkhill this year with their county player still unable to win the junior championship - having county players maybe isn't the be all and end all some are making out.

If we were to revert and decouple league & championship like days of old, Forkhill who are hands down the strongest junior club in Armagh would remain Junior for 2025, Pearse Óg who will be Division 1 next year would remain in Intermediate. Before you know we'd have Division 1 & 2 teams playing f**king Killean and Mullabrack (no disrespect) in the Junior championship.

As an aside I can think of nothing more depressing as a player than having to take part in a championship relegation match. You're one wedding away from potentially spending the rest of your career in the wrong grade.

If Forkhill are hands down the strongest junior club why would they remain junior?. Surely they'd win junior championship and get promoted?

They won the 3A league and got promoted to Intermediate for 2025.

Would be interested to see how Clann Eireann do against Glen.

I'd say Glen would beat them handy enough.

In Armagh the leagues and championships are linked. Promotion is via league/championship and relegation via the league. It makes for condensed, balanced, fair and competitive league structures with virtually no dead rubbers as teams are seeded for championship based on league standing.

There is an argument re county players missing for the league but as we saw with Clann Éireann walking to their second consecutive league title minus 5 county men, or Cullyhanna with their 3 county men still unable to buy a win the year before last, or even Forkhill this year with their county player still unable to win the junior championship - having county players maybe isn't the be all and end all some are making out.

If we were to revert and decouple league & championship like days of old, Forkhill who are hands down the strongest junior club in Armagh would remain Junior for 2025, Pearse Óg who will be Division 1 next year would remain in Intermediate. Before you know we'd have Division 1 & 2 teams playing f**king Killean and Mullabrack (no disrespect) in the Junior championship.

As an aside I can think of nothing more depressing as a player than having to take part in a championship relegation match. You're one wedding away from potentially spending the rest of your career in the wrong grade.

[That group of players were denied an opportunity to win a junior championship at that time due to daft rules that link league and championship.]

As an Armagh man, I think our system deserves more criticism for having a club like Cullyhanna find their way into the intermediate championship as they were relegated based on league position, because their county players were away for most of their games. Once in intermediate and at full strength they won an All Ireland, but they're a senior club who never should have been at that level.

I recall Forkhill, by any metric a junior club who would maybe be lucky enough to win a junior every 10-15 years, ended up in the senior championship in 2015. This was solely based on decent league performances in 2013 and 2014. In that time they never won the junior or intermediate championship (or made the final). That group of players were denied an opportunity to win a junior championship at that time due to daft rules that link league and championship.

Do you genuinely think Forkhill are still reeling over missing out on winning a Junior championship ten years ago? (Don't worry - they reached the promised land in 2020) What a mentality - I can tell you for a fact that Forkhill people were immensely proud to reach Division 1 and senior football. By every metric they're a Junior team yet they shot the lights out this year and only for taking their eye of the ball in the semi final would have wiped the floor with An Port Mór yesterday.

Wtf is the point in having leagues if there's no incentive? The Armagh leagues as they are mean there are virtually no dead rubbers. Gone are the days when team x would send a dummy team to play y so that team z would either go down or not get promoted.

I didn't say they were reeling over it and I'm very much aware they won the junior in 2020 after a replay.
Of course they were proud to reach the top division-that's the point I'm making. Their great league form denied them an opportunity to win a championship at the appropriate level. Cavan's system allows teams to do both.

So you reckon Forkhill should be free to play at the lowest level to win a championship because they're in your eyes "in every metric" a junior club, by the same token when Cullyhanna have a few shit years and can't buy a win (even with county players) they should stay in senior regardless?

Getting whittled down now:

ANTRIM: Cargin (McCann)
ARMAGH: Clann Eireann (McCambridge) v Clan na nGael (Soupy)
CAVAN: Crosserlough (McVeety) v Ramor (Brady)
DERRY: Glen (Glass) v Newbridge
DONEGAL: St Eunans (O'Donnell)
DOWN: Kilcoo (McEvoy)
FERMANAGH: Enniskillen v Erne Gaels
MONAGHAN: Clontibret v Scotstown
TYRONE: Errigal Ciaran (Darragh Canavan) v Trillick (Mattie Donnelly)

I see Mansy was playing for Clontibret at the weekend. Surely he's still their top dog?

[That group of players were denied an opportunity to win a junior championship at that time due to daft rules that link league and championship.]

As an Armagh man, I think our system deserves more criticism for having a club like Cullyhanna find their way into the intermediate championship as they were relegated based on league position, because their county players were away for most of their games. Once in intermediate and at full strength they won an All Ireland, but they're a senior club who never should have been at that level.

I recall Forkhill, by any metric a junior club who would maybe be lucky enough to win a junior every 10-15 years, ended up in the senior championship in 2015. This was solely based on decent league performances in 2013 and 2014. In that time they never won the junior or intermediate championship (or made the final). That group of players were denied an opportunity to win a junior championship at that time due to daft rules that link league and championship.

Do you genuinely think Forkhill are still reeling over missing out on winning a Junior championship ten years ago? (Don't worry - they reached the promised land in 2020) What a mentality - I can tell you for a fact that Forkhill people were immensely proud to reach Division 1 and senior football. By every metric they're a Junior team yet they shot the lights out this year and only for taking their eye of the ball in the semi final would have wiped the floor with An Port Mór yesterday.

Wtf is the point in having leagues if there's no incentive? The Armagh leagues as they are mean there are virtually no dead rubbers. Gone are the days when team x would send a dummy team to play y so that team z would either go down or not get promoted.

Whatever works for Cavan clubs is fair enough. I still maintain it gives them an unfair advantage at provincial level.

Surely there are massive pastings given out in the league, when the likes of Kingscourt, Cavan Gaels, Gowna and Ramor come to town to the lowly junior clubs?

Serious chip on the shoulder from Northern posters on here about Cavan. Yet they say nothing about Derry teams winning Intermediate and Junior and remaining in same division.

Mostly just nonsensical slabbering from fools but tiresome none the less.

Many people on here commented on that including general lee....

How are Glenullin still Intermediate? Did they not win it last year or the year before?

That same poster blathered about the Cavan teams all year.

Yeah, funny it's only Cavan posters that dont think it's ridiculous that their 3 championship winners last year all came from Division 1 in Cavan. 

speaking of narcissists its always sunny although a different genre is one of my favourite shows.

I also thought entourage, justified, Sons of Anarchy (1st few seasons), Farina (spainish) were easy watching...

Couldn't really get into the last season of It's Always Sunny for some reason. It's a brilliant show but seemed to have run its course.

Yeah i thought i recalled them going on a run in Ulster a few years back. Did they never push on at intermediate given they're back in junior? Big numbers in these rural clubs? I'd know the area well enough but not the ins and outs of the club scene in these particular clubs!!

Not really, there are probably too many (small rural) clubs in Armagh, compared to catchment areas of clubs in neighbouring Monaghan & Tyrone. Collegeland are amalgamated with Annaghmore and Clonmore at underage and APM would field albeit in the lower grades. They never really made a dent at intermediate level and were in 3B last year.

Blackwatertown and College land in the same division in Armagh? If I remember right, did Blackwatertown get a good run in Ulster a few years ago?

Both in 3A which is the 5th tier of league football in Armagh. APM won Ulster JFC 12 years ago. They were unfortunate in the AI semi final against eventual champions Ballinasloe.

CE with a full pack should have too much for the Clans. Stopping the main threats of Campbell, McPartlan and O'Neill is no easy task but they're probably the only team in the county that have the players to do it.

On the other hand I don't know if Clans have the players to stop CE's big hitters, which are numerous. Turbo, TK, McCambridge are the obvious ones but they're strong across their first 15 plus the players they have to spring from the bench - probably the deciding factor