Poll
Question:
Should the country go to Level 5 as adivsed by NPET?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 25
Option 2: No
votes: 46
Option 3: Don't know
votes: 8
Simple enough question. Just to do a bit of a straw poll of where public sentiment is at the minute.
NEPHET went from things are grand on Thursday to unadulterated panic Sunday evening.
Some turn around in a few days and no real figures.
NEPHET are in the business of keeping Deaths down. Governments are about keeping Debts down.
I'm with the professionals, everyone else has a slightly different agenda. Theirs is simple, keep as many people as possible from dying..
Quote from: Boycey on October 05, 2020, 10:14:45 PM
I'm with the professionals, everyone else has a slightly different agenda. Theirs is simple, keep as many people as possible from dying..
So are you with the Health professionals or the Economic Professionals?
The coronavirus will kill people in the short term.
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
It's very hard to make predictions , especially about the future
Absolutely No from me. Nephet came up with the level 1 to 5, regional assessment of covid and regional application of the level. Only on sunday to lose their minds and announce the majority of country should jump from level 2 to 5.
Theyve completely discredited themselves and Leo was right tonight to give them both barells. Quite incredible carry on yesterday and today. Like it or not, elected people run the country and must consider all aspects. Tony and doctors are experts in an area but are not charged with governing the country.
Maybe in a few weeks but right now it's a no from me. I'd even question why certain counties needed to go into level 3.
Last two weeks. Leitrim 12 covid cases, Carlow 26, Sligo 39, Mayo 39,Waterford 45,Kilkenny 46,Laois 68,Cavan 69,Kerry 69, Tipperary 66.
If cases double every week, then 12 becomes 24, then 48, then 96, 192, 384, 768, 1,536, 3,072, 6,144 etc.
So you can go from 12 to 1,536 in the space of two months, and a fortnight later you're at 6,144.
It's not the number of cases you need to be watching, it's the rate of increase, even if the numbers are small initially. They have a way of getting big very quickly.
I do wonder were there games at play by announcing recommendations to go to level 5 and tactics to try and scare people a bit. I really don't think we should be at 5 just yet. I think the north west, north north west, maybe needs a level 5 mind you.
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The coronavirus will kill people in the short term.
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
Long covid we don't know about either.
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
The likes of the following while not identifying specific deaths definitely supports the assertion that the risk of death through non Covid illness has increased;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check)
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
How do you interpret this and compare it with the spring time case v hospitalised stats.
Is the disease getting less dangerous?
Are more of the infected young?
Are there more reported cases and fewer unreported cases?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
The big failing is a dysfunctional, not fit for purpose health service - sponsored by FFG.
Quote from: lfdown2 on October 06, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
The likes of the following while not identifying specific deaths definitely supports the assertion that the risk of death through non Covid illness has increased;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check)
Of course the risk of other diseases has increased, this is also a consequence of the virus. But one of the dangerous fallacies, often repeated by people trying to confuse the issue, is that these are caused by the lockdown. The reality is that the lockdown reduces the pressure on the health service and make the prognosis for other diseases better rather than worse. If you let Covid rip, then all forms of health service will come under pressure and people with all ailments with do worse.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
The big failing is a dysfunctional, not fit for purpose health service - sponsored by FFG.
There is a lot of truth in this, the country been self indulgent in allowing bollix persist in the health service, although a lot of money is spent.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
Quote from: lfdown2 on October 06, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
The likes of the following while not identifying specific deaths definitely supports the assertion that the risk of death through non Covid illness has increased;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check)
Of course the risk of other diseases has increased, this is also a consequence of the virus. But one of the dangerous fallacies, often repeated by people trying to confuse the issue, is that these are caused by the lockdown. The reality is that the lockdown reduces the pressure on the health service and make the prognosis for other diseases better rather than worse. If you let Covid rip, then all forms of health service will come under pressure and people with all ailments with do worse.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
The big failing is a dysfunctional, not fit for purpose health service - sponsored by FFG.
There is a lot of truth in this, the country been self indulgent in allowing bollix persist in the health service, although a lot of money is spent.
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
I think the 26 are the only country in the EU without universal healthcare? The priority of FFG over decades has been to hawk off state assets and services to their billionaire chums for a song.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
Quote from: lfdown2 on October 06, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
The likes of the following while not identifying specific deaths definitely supports the assertion that the risk of death through non Covid illness has increased;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check)
Of course the risk of other diseases has increased, this is also a consequence of the virus. But one of the dangerous fallacies, often repeated by people trying to confuse the issue, is that these are caused by the lockdown. The reality is that the lockdown reduces the pressure on the health service and make the prognosis for other diseases better rather than worse. If you let Covid rip, then all forms of health service will come under pressure and people with all ailments with do worse.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
The big failing is a dysfunctional, not fit for purpose health service - sponsored by FFG.
There is a lot of truth in this, the country been self indulgent in allowing bollix persist in the health service, although a lot of money is spent.
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
I think the 26 are the only country in the EU without universal healthcare? The priority of FFG over decades has been to hawk off state assets and services to their billionaire chums for a song.
We don't have universal healthcare? Thats news.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
Haven't they increased ICU capacity? This cannot be done overnight, without robbing nurses etc from other roles where they are also needed. Yet people come on here complaining about cancer services etc being disrupted while simultaneously advocating that resources be diverted to Covid so that people can continue going to the pub.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on October 06, 2020, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
Quote from: lfdown2 on October 06, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
The likes of the following while not identifying specific deaths definitely supports the assertion that the risk of death through non Covid illness has increased;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check)
Of course the risk of other diseases has increased, this is also a consequence of the virus. But one of the dangerous fallacies, often repeated by people trying to confuse the issue, is that these are caused by the lockdown. The reality is that the lockdown reduces the pressure on the health service and make the prognosis for other diseases better rather than worse. If you let Covid rip, then all forms of health service will come under pressure and people with all ailments with do worse.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
The big failing is a dysfunctional, not fit for purpose health service - sponsored by FFG.
There is a lot of truth in this, the country been self indulgent in allowing bollix persist in the health service, although a lot of money is spent.
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
I think the 26 are the only country in the EU without universal healthcare? The priority of FFG over decades has been to hawk off state assets and services to their billionaire chums for a song.
We don't have universal healthcare? Thats news.
https://lowdownnhs.info/comment/beware-the-irish-model-of-healthcare/
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
Haven't they increased ICU capacity? This cannot be done overnight, without robbing nurses etc from other roles where they are also needed. Yet people come on here complaining about cancer services etc being disrupted while simultaneously advocating that resources be diverted to Covid so that people can continue going to the pub.
I don't think they did.
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.
The levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:22:09 PM
https://lowdownnhs.info/comment/beware-the-irish-model-of-healthcare/
It wouldn't be difficult to write an article "Beware the NHS" given that life expectancy in NI is dropping.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.
Yeah, right, take people off the dole and train them as ICU nurses and doctors, 6 months should do it.
QuoteThe levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
How many ICU beds are in the North?
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:22:09 PM
https://lowdownnhs.info/comment/beware-the-irish-model-of-healthcare/
It wouldn't be difficult to write an article "Beware the NHS" given that life expectancy in NI is dropping.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.[/quuote]
Yeah, right, take people off the dole and train them as ICU nurses and doctors, 6 months should do it.
QuoteThe levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
How many ICU beds are in the North?
The north is unique, there is little autonomy for the O6, it is a failed statelet in every single respect, government is impacted and you have a coalition of two polar opposite parties on a state divided along sectarian line - and that's before you even mention the complete apathy and disregard from Westminister.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on October 06, 2020, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
Quote from: lfdown2 on October 06, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
The likes of the following while not identifying specific deaths definitely supports the assertion that the risk of death through non Covid illness has increased;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/30/charity-says-nearly-a-million-women-missed-breast-cancer-check)
Of course the risk of other diseases has increased, this is also a consequence of the virus. But one of the dangerous fallacies, often repeated by people trying to confuse the issue, is that these are caused by the lockdown. The reality is that the lockdown reduces the pressure on the health service and make the prognosis for other diseases better rather than worse. If you let Covid rip, then all forms of health service will come under pressure and people with all ailments with do worse.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 06, 2020, 11:12:40 AM
39 ICU beds unoccupied now I see on Twitter. :-X
The big failing is a dysfunctional, not fit for purpose health service - sponsored by FFG.
There is a lot of truth in this, the country been self indulgent in allowing bollix persist in the health service, although a lot of money is spent.
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
I think the 26 are the only country in the EU without universal healthcare? The priority of FFG over decades has been to hawk off state assets and services to their billionaire chums for a song.
We don't have universal healthcare? Thats news.
https://lowdownnhs.info/comment/beware-the-irish-model-of-healthcare/
Well if you found a blog...
Universal healthcare is not defined by some people having to pay once at point of entry. Lots of countries have that.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
Haven't they increased ICU capacity? This cannot be done overnight, without robbing nurses etc from other roles where they are also needed. Yet people come on here complaining about cancer services etc being disrupted while simultaneously advocating that resources be diverted to Covid so that people can continue going to the pub.
I don't think they did.
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.
The levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
Our healthcare system is unable to cope?
Lowest if you exclude Finland, Greece, Slovenia, Portugal, the Netherlands and Sweden.
Someone is pissing in your ear about the southern health system. Its far from perfect, but you are way off here.
He's a totally brainwashed Shinnerbot......
If only SF had been allowed to form a 1 party Government after the February election they would have built 20 new State of the art Hospitals, staffed them, Nationalised the Private Hospitals, reduced Income taxes, abolished all other taxes and charges all in 6 months.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 06, 2020, 12:43:51 PM
He's a totally brainwashed Shinnerbot......
If only SF had been allowed to form a 1 party Government after the February election they would have built 20 new State of the art Hospitals, staffed them, Nationalised the Private Hospitals, reduced Income taxes, abolished all other taxes and charges all in 6 months.
Considering the cost of the new childrens hospital, I don't think anyone can take the moral high ground on this one. Ineptitude would be an understatement.
what could and should be done is try and coax all those nurses and doctors who departed these shores to come back and make it worth their while.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on October 06, 2020, 12:37:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
Haven't they increased ICU capacity? This cannot be done overnight, without robbing nurses etc from other roles where they are also needed. Yet people come on here complaining about cancer services etc being disrupted while simultaneously advocating that resources be diverted to Covid so that people can continue going to the pub.
I don't think they did.
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.
The levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
Our healthcare system is unable to cope?
Lowest if you exclude Finland, Greece, Slovenia, Portugal, the Netherlands and Sweden.
Someone is pissing in your ear about the southern health system. Its far from perfect, but you are way off here.
Don't think so.
The chart was up on the Virgin Media news at 5.30 yeseterday.
5 ICU beds per 100k population, the lowest in the EU.
Maybe you should look at the policies of FFG which have consistently looked to sell healthcare service off to the private sector to run at a profit.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 06, 2020, 12:43:51 PM
He's a totally brainwashed Shinnerbot......
If only SF had been allowed to form a 1 party Government after the February election they would have built 20 new State of the art Hospitals, staffed them, Nationalised the Private Hospitals, reduced Income taxes, abolished all other taxes and charges all in 6 months.
What we have is the known - FFG who have shown incompetence, mismanagement, disregard and a need to facilitate the private sector when it comes to healhcare.
And then we have the unknown which your subjective bias seems to frighten you more than the absolute carnage that FFG have caused when it comes to the health sector.
Odd that SF would worry you more than proven failures.
How is the world's most expensive children's hospital coming along?
I think the only solution is to build a time machine and go back 20-30 years and ensure FFG aren't in power so they can't create a malfunded shitshow of a health service that is the HSE/regional health boards is/were
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on October 06, 2020, 12:37:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
Haven't they increased ICU capacity? This cannot be done overnight, without robbing nurses etc from other roles where they are also needed. Yet people come on here complaining about cancer services etc being disrupted while simultaneously advocating that resources be diverted to Covid so that people can continue going to the pub.
I don't think they did.
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.
The levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
Our healthcare system is unable to cope?
Lowest if you exclude Finland, Greece, Slovenia, Portugal, the Netherlands and Sweden.
Someone is pissing in your ear about the southern health system. Its far from perfect, but you are way off here.
If you don't believe me.
https://twitter.com/VirginMediaNews/status/1313196493017358339
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 06, 2020, 04:26:09 AM
If cases double every week, then 12 becomes 24, then 48, then 96, 192, 384, 768, 1,536, 3,072, 6,144 etc.
So you can go from 12 to 1,536 in the space of two months, and a fortnight later you're at 6,144.
It's not the number of cases you need to be watching, it's the rate of increase, even if the numbers are small initially. They have a way of getting big very quickly.
Little chance of that happening in Leitrim who had a little over a 100 cases total since February. Each county can be monitored weekly and moved up or down levels and a good number of the counties i named there had decreases in case numbers the last few weeks
In the three Connacht hospitals in Mayo, Sligo and Galway there is currently 1 person with Covid in hospital surely another reason to be keeping those counties at level 2?
Quote from: ballinaman on October 06, 2020, 01:17:55 PM
I think the only solution is to build a time machine and go back 20-30 years and ensure FFG aren't in power so they can't create a malfunded shitshow of a health service that is the HSE/regional health boards is/were
If we get FFG to build that time machine we can ensure that it is the most expensive time machine that is never built.
Quote from: Blowitupref on October 06, 2020, 01:40:02 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 06, 2020, 04:26:09 AM
If cases double every week, then 12 becomes 24, then 48, then 96, 192, 384, 768, 1,536, 3,072, 6,144 etc.
So you can go from 12 to 1,536 in the space of two months, and a fortnight later you're at 6,144.
It's not the number of cases you need to be watching, it's the rate of increase, even if the numbers are small initially. They have a way of getting big very quickly.
Little chance of that happening in Leitrim who had a little over a 100 cases total since February. Each county can be monitored weekly and moved up or down levels and a good number of the counties i named there had decreases in case numbers the last few weeks
In the three Connacht hospitals in Mayo, Sligo and Galway there is currently 1 person with Covid in hospital surely another reason to be keeping those counties at level 2?
Away with your complete common sense! It has no place on GAA Board.
Crazy stuff Blowitup putting all Counties on same level irrespective of the number of cases or Hospitalisations.
Also the blanket ban on travel outside your own County.
Someone in Rooskey is 50 metres from Leitrim and 300 metres from Longford.
Can't go to either but can traipse off to Balkyforan 80 or 90 km away.
Also have to go to Ros Town to shop instead of the usual Carrick or Longford.
Should have gone to level 5. Will be in level 5 soon enough. Delaying is only going to cost lives unfortunately and will probably cause more damage economically (longer lockdown).
People on about small numbers of cases in the likes of Sligo etc - it only takes a "small" number of cases to get right up there in the cases per 100000 population rankings. 2 weeks ago there were practically no cases in Sligo - 39 in a fortnight including 21 in the last 2 days (up to October 3rd) is pretty worrying.
Rossfan's point about county based lockdowns is well made it must be said.
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 06, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
Should have gone to level 5. Will be in level 5 soon enough.
I don't really see a whole pile of difference to Level 3 and Level 5 if I'm honest.
The hospitality sector is de facto closed now. Don't schools remain open in L5 anyway?
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 06, 2020, 02:40:26 PM
Should have gone to level 5. Will be in level 5 soon enough. Delaying is only going to cost lives unfortunately and will probably cause more damage economically (longer lockdown).
People on about small numbers of cases in the likes of Sligo etc - it only takes a "small" number of cases to get right up there in the cases per 100000 population rankings. 2 weeks ago there were practically no cases in Sligo - 39 in a fortnight including 21 in the last 2 days (up to October 3rd) is pretty worrying.
Rossfan's point about county based lockdowns is well made it must be said.
Incidence rate for small populated counties such as Sligo, Leitrim should not be a focus, it can shoot up with one cluster and back down again in a few days. You would need a few weeks of increase numbers for it to become a worrying situation in Sligo.
As already pointed out there isn't a lot different between level 3 and 5 but level 2 is different and I don't see the sense of counties with low case numbers with few from those counties requiring hospital treatment getting lumped into level 3 with the rest.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 12:14:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 12:00:54 PM
The big question would be why were the Gov sitting on their hands in the past 6 months and not looking to increase ICU capacity.
Haven't they increased ICU capacity? This cannot be done overnight, without robbing nurses etc from other roles where they are also needed. Yet people come on here complaining about cancer services etc being disrupted while simultaneously advocating that resources be diverted to Covid so that people can continue going to the pub.
I don't think they did.
We're not talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're talking about increasing ICU capacity, 6 months is a lot of time to increase capacity and put plans in place.
The levels in the north are huge but in the 26 it looks like they are taking extreme measures as their health service is simply unable to cope and has the lowest ICU beds per 100k in the EU.
Bingo
The health service and Govt have only had seven months to prepare for a potential/possible increase in the autumn.
Appears to me that all they have done is continually recommend to shut down the entire country irrespective of infection rate in each county, a lazy one size fits all solution.
As someone posted earlier, why shut down large parts of rural Ireland, when the #'s are by far bigger in Dublin and surrounding counties, and a few other cities.
This was the case for the entire Summer.
I do not want anybody to lose their life over this horrible virus.
However, It is a good job they cannot measure depression/disillusionment, the numbers would be off the charts, but as these folks don't need to be hospitalized immediately, it is not an issue.
IMO and please correct me if i am wrong, this all comes down to sh*t planning or investment in healthcare throughout the country and especially in rural parts of Ireland.
If a Rural Ireland political party does arise out of this mess, the public have only themselves to blame.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
I cant agree with you on this one. There are large numbers with serious non-Covid problems like cancer, copd etc. who are being denied life-saving treatment due to the demands made on the health resources by Covid.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 06, 2020, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
I cant agree with you on this one. There are large numbers with s[b]erious non-Covid problems like cancer, copd etc[/b]. who are being denied life-saving treatment due to the demands made on the health resources by Covid.
That is only going to worse if there isn't a lockdown as more and more covid patients will require hospital treatment.
Quote from: Cavan19 on October 06, 2020, 03:53:54 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 06, 2020, 03:49:29 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 11:01:38 AM
Quote from: dec on October 05, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
The lockdown will kill people in the long term.
This is one of these slogans without any obvious basis in fact. How, exactly will the lockdown kill people in the long term? The economy is damaged anyway by the virus, the lockdown doesn't make it materially worse. Will the Chinese economy suffer more in the long term than US?
I cant agree with you on this one. There are large numbers with s[b]erious non-Covid problems like cancer, copd etc[/b]. who are being denied life-saving treatment due to the demands made on the health resources by Covid.
That is only going to worse if there isn't a lockdown as more and more covid patients will require hospital treatment.
Exactly. It is ridiculous how people propose that not having a lockdown somehow helps people with other health issues, it is a falsehood of Trumpian proportions, yet it is repeated again and again.
Lockdowns reduce demand on the health service and help ill people.
There are areas where people will suffer. Cancer patients in particular.
In general yes you're right but there are areas. It's not trumpian to suggest that - it's fact. The cancer treatments have had to ramp down. Maybe you could argue that is because they are planning for reduced staffing levels due to staff getting covid but the cancer treatments have had to be ramped down. (That is the north we are talking about but I would guess the south has had that issue too).
Lockdowns are crude and economically damaging. The Govt is third or 4th division in terms of Covid effectiveness. Fix this before going to level 5 .
The Irish Times has decent analysis these days :
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hard-times-ahead-unless-covid-19-policy-is-seriously-revamped-1.4370823
"With the World Health Organisation last month giving the thumbs-up to antigen testing, we should be planning to put in place a high-volume system of rapid and cheap testing to complement the existing system.
Belatedly, we are investing more in retrospective investigation of cases and clusters. By going back to the causes of outbreaks we can learn more about high-risk environments, and do more to make them safer or rule them off-limits. We can also learn to identify the minority of infected people who spread most of the cases, and understand what gives rise to this version of the 80:20 rule.
Instead of shutting things down, we need to be allowing them to happen – restaurants and travel, for example – under strict rules. Controlled environments are good; uncontrolled ones are bad."
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 06, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
There are areas where people will suffer. Cancer patients in particular.
In general yes you're right but there are areas. It's not trumpian to suggest that - it's fact. The cancer treatments have had to ramp down. Maybe you could argue that is because they are planning for reduced staffing levels due to staff getting covid but the cancer treatments have had to be ramped down. (That is the north we are talking about but I would guess the south has had that issue too).
The cancer services have had to ramp down because of the virus, not because of the lockdown, medical staff have always been allowed go to work. In some cases staff have got Covid and the more Covid there is there more will be off, since medical staff live in the community with everyone else.
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2020, 04:45:19 PM
Instead of shutting things down, we need to be allowing them to happen – restaurants and travel, for example – under strict rules. Controlled environments are good; uncontrolled ones are bad."
Yes, but in Ireland they refuse to control these environments, or they set lax controls, if you don't have 2m then 1m will do kind of thing.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Personally, I've refused to get involved with much discussion online concerning COVID-19 as there's little point listening to nearly everyone involved but I will say this - as someone who has had episodes of bad/poor mental illness for more than twenty years which have included hospital admissions, I'm seriously fucked off by the usual suspects suddenly now using mental health issues as a tool concerning lockdown measures just to help satisfy their passive aggressive selfishness, whom in "normal" times (and perhaps even now) would treat such people as lazy fruitloops whom needed nothing netter than needing pulling themselves together, maybe with a good few slaps across the face. The same kind of **** whom rails against foreign aid saying "charity begins at home" when if they saw a homeless person on the street they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Brilliant
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 06, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
There are areas where people will suffer. Cancer patients in particular.
In general yes you're right but there are areas. It's not trumpian to suggest that - it's fact. The cancer treatments have had to ramp down. Maybe you could argue that is because they are planning for reduced staffing levels due to staff getting covid but the cancer treatments have had to be ramped down. (That is the north we are talking about but I would guess the south has had that issue too).
The cancer services have had to ramp down because of the virus, not because of the lockdown, medical staff have always been allowed go to work. In some cases staff have got Covid and the more Covid there is there more will be off, since medical staff live in the community with everyone else.
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2020, 04:45:19 PM
Instead of shutting things down, we need to be allowing them to happen – restaurants and travel, for example – under strict rules. Controlled environments are good; uncontrolled ones are bad."
Yes, but in Ireland they refuse to control these environments, or they set lax controls, if you don't have 2m then 1m will do kind of thing.
Very hard for restaurants are pubs etc to be viable businesses with 2m distances as opposed to 1m.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 06:13:45 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 06, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
There are areas where people will suffer. Cancer patients in particular.
In general yes you're right but there are areas. It's not trumpian to suggest that - it's fact. The cancer treatments have had to ramp down. Maybe you could argue that is because they are planning for reduced staffing levels due to staff getting covid but the cancer treatments have had to be ramped down. (That is the north we are talking about but I would guess the south has had that issue too).
The cancer services have had to ramp down because of the virus, not because of the lockdown, medical staff have always been allowed go to work. In some cases staff have got Covid and the more Covid there is there more will be off, since medical staff live in the community with everyone else.
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2020, 04:45:19 PM
Instead of shutting things down, we need to be allowing them to happen – restaurants and travel, for example – under strict rules. Controlled environments are good; uncontrolled ones are bad."
Yes, but in Ireland they refuse to control these environments, or they set lax controls, if you don't have 2m then 1m will do kind of thing.
Very hard for restaurants are pubs etc to be viable businesses with 2m distances as opposed to 1m.
No doubt, but the easy going approach helps keep the virus going.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 06:13:45 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 06, 2020, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 06, 2020, 04:18:20 PM
There are areas where people will suffer. Cancer patients in particular.
In general yes you're right but there are areas. It's not trumpian to suggest that - it's fact. The cancer treatments have had to ramp down. Maybe you could argue that is because they are planning for reduced staffing levels due to staff getting covid but the cancer treatments have had to be ramped down. (That is the north we are talking about but I would guess the south has had that issue too).
The cancer services have had to ramp down because of the virus, not because of the lockdown, medical staff have always been allowed go to work. In some cases staff have got Covid and the more Covid there is there more will be off, since medical staff live in the community with everyone else.
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2020, 04:45:19 PM
Instead of shutting things down, we need to be allowing them to happen – restaurants and travel, for example – under strict rules. Controlled environments are good; uncontrolled ones are bad."
Yes, but in Ireland they refuse to control these environments, or they set lax controls, if you don't have 2m then 1m will do kind of thing.
Very hard for restaurants are pubs etc to be viable businesses with 2m distances as opposed to 1m.
No doubt, but the easy going approach helps keep the virus going.
The virus will keep on going anyway.
Quote from: Angelo on October 06, 2020, 07:08:18 PM
The virus will keep on going anyway.
No doubt, but if it goes on Taiwan style, or even Norway style then we'll not have to close everything.
I haven't heard the business lobby mental health bandwagoners inquire after then mental health of those who still have to work through a pandemic and put themselves at risk
Might disturb the narrative
Quote from: Rossfan on October 06, 2020, 02:02:19 PM
Also the blanket ban on travel outside your own County.
Someone in Rooskey is 50 metres from Leitrim and 300 metres from Longford.
Can't go to either but can traipse off to Balkyforan 80 or 90 km away.
Also have to go to Ros Town to shop instead of the usual Carrick or Longford.
You have to draw the boundary somewhere for restrictions and a county boundary is generally well defined and understood (let's not get into the Ballagh saga :P) so it's as good as any. No matter where it's put, there'll be some anomalies. What would be a better alternative?
Up to 20 km from home in an adjoining County?
Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2020, 12:26:41 AM
Up to 20 km from home in an adjoining County?
How about limiting travel to the area within, say. a 20 km radius from one's residence?
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 07, 2020, 09:43:32 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2020, 12:26:41 AM
Up to 20 km from home in an adjoining County?
How about limiting travel to the area within, say. a 20 km radius from one's residence?
In May/June they had thr 15km rule, then they introduced the county thing and they stated that you could still go the 15Km if you were near the boundary. Why they haven't just restated this is a good example of the general uselessness of those involved.
Yeah, maybe a county limit or 20km would have been better
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 07, 2020, 10:12:05 AM
Yeah, maybe a county limit or 20km would have been better
Any reasonable formula, once it is clearly stated and publicised.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Personally, I've refused to get involved with much discussion online concerning COVID-19 as there's little point listening to nearly everyone involved but I will say this - as someone who has had episodes of bad/poor mental illness for more than twenty years which have included hospital admissions, I'm seriously fucked off by the usual suspects suddenly now using mental health issues as a tool concerning lockdown measures just to help satisfy their passive aggressive selfishness, whom in "normal" times (and perhaps even now) would treat such people as lazy fruitloops whom needed nothing netter than needing pulling themselves together, maybe with a good few slaps across the face. The same kind of **** whom rails against foreign aid saying "charity begins at home" when if they saw a homeless person on the street they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Excellent post. 100%.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 07, 2020, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 07, 2020, 09:43:32 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2020, 12:26:41 AM
Up to 20 km from home in an adjoining County?
How about limiting travel to the area within, say. a 20 km radius from one's residence?
In May/June they had thr 15km rule, then they introduced the county thing and they stated that you could still go the 15Km if you were near the boundary. Why they haven't just restated this is a good example of the general uselessness of those involved.
It's easier to lay the blame at the people rather than give clear directives
At the heart of the matter is a dysfunctional health system which is the legacy of the two governing parties and they don't want to bring that to light.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Personally, I've refused to get involved with much discussion online concerning COVID-19 as there's little point listening to nearly everyone involved but I will say this - as someone who has had episodes of bad/poor mental illness for more than twenty years which have included hospital admissions, I'm seriously fucked off by the usual suspects suddenly now using mental health issues as a tool concerning lockdown measures just to help satisfy their passive aggressive selfishness, whom in "normal" times (and perhaps even now) would treat such people as lazy fruitloops whom needed nothing netter than needing pulling themselves together, maybe with a good few slaps across the face. The same kind of **** whom rails against foreign aid saying "charity begins at home" when if they saw a homeless person on the street they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
110%
I heard some useless c**t from representing the business world on the radio the other day going on about the effects of restrictions on mental health - and the exact same thought struck me - "not two f**ks could you give about those with mental health issues, this is just a handy excuse to play bleeding heart, now away f**k off and die in a ditch ye two-faced w**ker".
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 07, 2020, 11:13:48 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Personally, I've refused to get involved with much discussion online concerning COVID-19 as there's little point listening to nearly everyone involved but I will say this - as someone who has had episodes of bad/poor mental illness for more than twenty years which have included hospital admissions, I'm seriously fucked off by the usual suspects suddenly now using mental health issues as a tool concerning lockdown measures just to help satisfy their passive aggressive selfishness, whom in "normal" times (and perhaps even now) would treat such people as lazy fruitloops whom needed nothing netter than needing pulling themselves together, maybe with a good few slaps across the face. The same kind of **** whom rails against foreign aid saying "charity begins at home" when if they saw a homeless person on the street they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Excellent post. 100%.
Agree.
Pubs have been dying on their arse since the recession 12 or so years ago. Less and less people were supporting their locals, choosing to drink at home. Now some people can't seem to survive without a trip to the pub, and going mental because they've closed/under restrictions. I don't recall anyone speaking up that something be done to help pubs when they were clearly struggling. Now they can't get enough of their local pub.
It seems a case of people only wanting to do something when they're told they can't.
Quote from: Angelo on October 07, 2020, 11:21:59 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on October 07, 2020, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 07, 2020, 09:43:32 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2020, 12:26:41 AM
Up to 20 km from home in an adjoining County?
How about limiting travel to the area within, say. a 20 km radius from one's residence?
In May/June they had thr 15km rule, then they introduced the county thing and they stated that you could still go the 15Km if you were near the boundary. Why they haven't just restated this is a good example of the general uselessness of those involved.
It's easier to lay the blame at the people rather than give clear directives
At the heart of the matter is a dysfunctional health system which is the legacy of the two governing parties and they don't want to bring that to light.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/michael-mcdowell-nphet-allowed-get-too-big-for-its-boots-1.4373734
The policy monopoly conferred on Nphet and the HSE was hardwired to fail us on non-Covid-19 public health matters and on supervising an adequate response in our health infrastructure.
We need joined-up thinking, decision-making and implementation in our struggle to live with Covid-19. The economy is not a mere residual in public policy. There are huge costs too for lockdown in terms of lives lost, lives ruined, occupations destroyed, social and cultural activity, recreation, loneliness, depression, domestic abuse and psychiatric well-being.
All these must be at the centre of our political discourse. Political responsibility and accountability must always lie in our democratically elected institutions.
Only thing NPHET did wrong was publicising their advice on Sunday night.
That advice should have gone to the Minister of Health without any public comment and let him, his Special Committee and the Cabinet take it from there.
Garda checkpoints causing chaos on the M4 and M7 out of Dublin by all accounts.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2020, 01:24:48 PM
Only thing NPHET did wrong was publicising their advice on Sunday night.
That advice should have gone to the Minister of Health without any public comment and let him, his Special Committee and the Cabinet take it from there.
Garda checkpoints causing chaos on the M4 and M7 out of Dublin by all accounts.
When you hear ballbag Boris and his cronies talking about following the science when they did everything but it's no wonder there's little faith or trust between the medics and scientists and the politicians.
EUR 200 fine for leaving the county suggested. Very hard on people from South Ros, West Cavan and Offaly
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/consider-penalties-of-50-for-not-wearing-masks-and-200-for-leaving-county-t%C3%A1naiste-1.4374294
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
EUR 200 fine for leaving the county suggested. Very hard on people from South Ros, West Cavan and Offaly
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/consider-penalties-of-50-for-not-wearing-masks-and-200-for-leaving-county-t%C3%A1naiste-1.4374294
Totally ridiculous. Someone living in Graiguecullen would have to drive 35km to Carlow to buy an essential item they could get 2km away in Carlow. Ditto the Kilkenny side of Waterford city and the Roscommon side of Athlone.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Personally, I've refused to get involved with much discussion online concerning COVID-19 as there's little point listening to nearly everyone involved but I will say this - as someone who has had episodes of bad/poor mental illness for more than twenty years which have included hospital admissions, I'm seriously fucked off by the usual suspects suddenly now using mental health issues as a tool concerning lockdown measures just to help satisfy their passive aggressive selfishness, whom in "normal" times (and perhaps even now) would treat such people as lazy fruitloops whom needed nothing netter than needing pulling themselves together, maybe with a good few slaps across the face. The same kind of **** whom rails against foreign aid saying "charity begins at home" when if they saw a homeless person on the street they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Great post.
Crocodile tears from transparent cnuts about mental health or cancer or whatever. These services have had major issues long before COVID became a thing, where was the heartfelt concern then?
The business lobby mental health bandwagoners remind me of the so called pro-life movement claiming to have concern for the welfare of women before the 2018 abortion referendum
They had 35 years to do something for women and they did precisely nothing
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
EUR 200 fine for leaving the county suggested. Very hard on people from South Ros, West Cavan and Offaly
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/consider-penalties-of-50-for-not-wearing-masks-and-200-for-leaving-county-t%C3%A1naiste-1.4374294
Will any of the anti mask and restrictions loons be slapped with fines?
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/holohan-warned-government-about-covid-fears-before-controversial-nphet-meeting-39599176.html
Curioser and curiouser.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 08, 2020, 12:09:56 AM
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/holohan-warned-government-about-covid-fears-before-controversial-nphet-meeting-39599176.html
Curioser and curiouser.
For me it's clear the level 5 story was leaked by someone in government at the weekend. NPHET can only advise government and had nothing to gain by leaking it. Much more likely someone in government decided to throw NPHET under the bus by leaking the story so the politicans could have a go at them and them and make themselves look like the good guys standing up them
the current result of the poll is interesting. on Cblive the result based on 1000 people was 40% L5 38% remain as is and 22% dont know.
Also On Cblive the two media panellists were delighting in firstly the fact the Nphet and the govt went seperate ways and secondly Leos comment about Nphet... good to see some getting such joy out of such misery!!!
One or the other is playing silly buggers here. Either NPHET are by leaking the story or someone in government is by leaking it.
NPHET could be covering their asses or dissenters in the government could be showing the government up.
Who knows. All is not harmonious anyway.
Micheál leading from the back yet again...
Shyster
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2020, 05:02:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
EUR 200 fine for leaving the county suggested. Very hard on people from South Ros, West Cavan and Offaly
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/consider-penalties-of-50-for-not-wearing-masks-and-200-for-leaving-county-t%C3%A1naiste-1.4374294
Will any of the anti mask and restrictions loons be slapped with fines?
f**k the fines, Cops should batton the pricks out of the place.
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 08, 2020, 08:59:33 AM
One or the other is playing silly buggers here. Either NPHET are by leaking the story or someone in government is by leaking it.
dissenters in the government could be showing the government up.
Varadkar?? seeing as he went on an unchallenged anti NPHET rant on TV Monday night.
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 07, 2020, 11:13:48 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Personally, I've refused to get involved with much discussion online concerning COVID-19 as there's little point listening to nearly everyone involved but I will say this - as someone who has had episodes of bad/poor mental illness for more than twenty years which have included hospital admissions, I'm seriously fucked off by the usual suspects suddenly now using mental health issues as a tool concerning lockdown measures just to help satisfy their passive aggressive selfishness, whom in "normal" times (and perhaps even now) would treat such people as lazy fruitloops whom needed nothing netter than needing pulling themselves together, maybe with a good few slaps across the face. The same kind of **** whom rails against foreign aid saying "charity begins at home" when if they saw a homeless person on the street they wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
Excellent post. 100%.
Yep,
Spot on Fionntamhnach