Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[sid waddell]

Giving weaker teams only one chance in the championship has been unsuccessfully tried before.

In 2007, Division 4 teams were eliminated from the championship if they lost in the provinces.

I recall that the Dublin v Offaly in that year's Leinster semi-final was one such match, where Offaly knew they would be out if they lost, and lose they did.

Nobody cared about the Tommy Cooper Cup that year, and nor did they care any other year.

The rule was scrapped after one year.

[five points]

Until this year, Cavan's best championship run in the past 20 years was in 2013, when we were in Division 3, near the bottom of it. That gave us the impetus to get promoted first to Division 2 and then to Division 1, and eventually compete more meaningfully in the Ulster Championship. Had we been stuck in the Tommy Cooper Cup, would all that have happened?

[lenny]

Until this year, Cavan's best championship run in the past 20 years was in 2013, when we were in Division 3, near the bottom of it. That gave us the impetus to get promoted first to Division 2 and then to Division 1, and eventually compete more meaningfully in the Ulster Championship. Had we been stuck in the Tommy Cooper Cup, would all that have happened?

I see your point, because in club football every team that is in junior stays there as with intermediate and senior. There is no movement between the levels so you're probably right.

[five points]

Until this year, Cavan's best championship run in the past 20 years was in 2013, when we were in Division 3, near the bottom of it. That gave us the impetus to get promoted first to Division 2 and then to Division 1, and eventually compete more meaningfully in the Ulster Championship. Had we been stuck in the Tommy Cooper Cup, would all that have happened?

I see your point, because in club football every team that is in junior stays there as with intermediate and senior. There is no movement between the levels so you're probably right.

I haven't a clue what your point is. The intercounty championship gives lower-ranked counties an opportunity to make progress in a manner that can kickstart more sustained improvement in both league and championship. The national leagues don't do that (nobody really cares if they win or lose a Div 3 or 4 final) and the Tommy Cooper Cup never did either.

[Rossfan]

How did playing and losing Qualifier games make Cavan better?
Was it not ,like ourselves, decent minor and u21 teams over a few years.
We were in D 4 in 2010.

[five points]

How did playing and losing Qualifier games make Cavan better?

We didn't lose any qualifier games in 2013.

We were in D 4 in 2010.

And won the provincial championship, by beating London, Leitrim and Sligo. That same year, we'd have had to beat Fermanagh, Monaghan and Tyrone to do likewise. Sauce for the gander and all that.

[APM]

If based on Division 2 positions at the start of the seasons, Down and Derry will be in the second tier next year if they don't reach the Ulster Final.  For two teams that gave both Mayo and Tyrone damn good games this year in the Qualifiers and Ulster Championship, can anyone explain to me what this is meant to do for interest in inter-county football in either Down or Derry.  Meanwhile, one of the biggest drubbings of the year so far was handed down to Meath in the Leinster Final and they will certainly be competing in the top tier next year (and the following year also at least). 

Cork meanwhile will play in Division 3 next year, but have a far better chance of reaching a provincial final than Down or Derry do in Ulster, and in most years they will play in Tier 1 regardless of league position.

The reality is that for the last four years we have had one team in the country way ahead of the rest.  That is the only line we can safely draw at the moment.  Yes, the best of the rest are a long way ahead of the worst.  However, the gaps are graduated and there isn't a natural line of demarcation between the bottom of Division 2 and the top of Division 3.  On their day, a team at the relegated from Division 2 (Cork) will have a damn good chance of beating a team at the bottom of Division 1 (Cavan).  A team in the middle of Division 3 (Longford) will stand a good chance of beating a Division 2 team (Kildare). 

The whole concept is a pile of crap and the more I hear from John Horan the less confidence I have in him.  A bullshitter!!

[APM]

If only we had someone that worked as a bookie to calculate notional odds of games between tier 1 and tier 2 teams, then they could fill in the chart below.  There used to be a guy called LoneShark on here. If you had a reliable person calculating the odds, you could look at this much more scientifically. 

[Esmarelda]

If based on Division 2 positions at the start of the seasons, Down and Derry will be in the second tier next year if they don't reach the Ulster Final.  For two teams that gave both Mayo and Tyrone damn good games this year in the Qualifiers and Ulster Championship, can anyone explain to me what this is meant to do for interest in inter-county football in either Down or Derry.  Meanwhile, one of the biggest drubbings of the year so far was handed down to Meath in the Leinster Final and they will certainly be competing in the top tier next year (and the following year also at least). 

Cork meanwhile will play in Division 3 next year, but have a far better chance of reaching a provincial final than Down or Derry do in Ulster, and in most years they will play in Tier 1 regardless of league position.

The reality is that for the last four years we have had one team in the country way ahead of the rest.  That is the only line we can safely draw at the moment.  Yes, the best of the rest are a long way ahead of the worst.  However, the gaps are graduated and there isn't a natural line of demarcation between the bottom of Division 2 and the top of Division 3.  On their day, a team at the relegated from Division 2 (Cork) will have a damn good chance of beating a team at the bottom of Division 1 (Cavan).  A team in the middle of Division 3 (Longford) will stand a good chance of beating a Division 2 team (Kildare). 

The whole concept is a pile of crap and the more I hear from John Horan the less confidence I have in him.  A bullshitter!!

Yeah well it works at club level.

[irish345]

horan said the provincials have to be kept and its unbalanced but thats they way it is he said

Thats there problem there insistence to to keep provincials linked to all ireland



i came up with another hypothetical idea today Open Draw all ireland knockout 32 - 34 teams if you count new york london and if kilkenny enter

Except the 4 provincial winners are seeded they cant meet untill semi Final that makes winning your province a slight advantage and still gives a bit more prestige to winning province

i still prefer the open draw no seeds knockout tho

[five points]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

[Esmarelda]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Sorry, I thought my jest was obvious.

The "it works at club level" seems to be the go-to argument when all else has been said.

[Rossfan]

Yeah well it works at club level.

Club level is sustained by local rivalries. Beating a team from 20 or even 40 miles away in a county junior final is special. Beating a county from the other side of the country proved rather less special when it came to the Tommy Cooper Cup.

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.
And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

[five points]

Laythrim hurlers were mighty happy batin a team from another Country.

How many did they have at it?

And it was special to them going by their celebrations in Carrick that night.

Everybody loves it when they win. But how many Leitrim people know the name of the cup they won a fortnight ago? I'm not even sure myself was it the Lory Meagher or the Nicky Rackard.

[BennyCake]

horan said the provincials have to be kept and its unbalanced but thats they way it is he said

Thats there problem there insistence to to keep provincials linked to all ireland



i came up with another hypothetical idea today Open Draw all ireland knockout 32 - 34 teams if you count new york london and if kilkenny enter

Except the 4 provincial winners are seeded they cant meet untill semi Final that makes winning your province a slight advantage and still gives a bit more prestige to winning province

i still prefer the open draw no seeds knockout tho

As do I.